A Game: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
- Thread starter SeaJayInSC
- Start date
SeaJayInSC
New member
Interesting... So you're not using it to tell you your NDLs?
yousmellsfishy
New member
SeaJayInSC, at the rate I suck air I need to pay more attention to the SPS than the NDL time to know when time's up :lol:
SeaJayInSC
New member
Most computers have a "gauge" mode.
There's simply no way that I'm going to encourage you to purchase any gear yet, and when you do purchase, the computer will be the last thing that I recommend.
That said, there are three vital pieces of equipment: a depth gauge, a timer, and an SPG. How you choose to package them is up to you, but inside of a metal and glass "computer" on my right wrist (plus the SPG clipped on my left hip) is my favorite way. I believe you'll find that metal and glass is dramatically more durable and readable than anything you'll find made of plastic. Halcyon, Dive Rite, DIR Zone, ScubaPro and the like all make very nice 2" brass and glass SPGs. Avoid the boot, as it serves very little to protect anything, and creates a trap for water to create corrosion. Boots also hide problems that you might see otherwise while rinsing your gear.
There are several stainless and glass computers on the market - my personal favorite is the Suunto D6, which conveniently logs dives (and shows graphical profiles both in it's excellent software with USB connection and right on it's screen). Its face and numbers are bright and large, and the unit includes a very usable compass so you don't need a separate compass (which, in my opinion, is used a lot less than what would justify wearing a separate unit). Of course, the D6 also does temperature, ascent rate, and stopwatch with quite a number of automated features like you mention above. In computer mode, the D6 also shows NDLs... Which is fine, if you choose to use that later once you already know your NDLs pretty intimately. In gauge mode, the display is a lot better and more informative than it is in computer mode, with the display showing more information with a higher degree of accuracy (shows seconds as well as minutes, etc.)
The same software is available in the Vyper, but the Vyper is a much larger unit (meaning that you won't wear it except when diving) without the special display that allows you to see your graphical profiles. The Vyper also isn't metal and glass.
That said, all of the gauges I mention above are fairly pricey units - but then, you get what you pay for. Find an online source - I think I spent about $650 for my D6 delivered to my door. I saw one shop that was selling it for almost three times that price.
...Which is why I don't think you'll get much use out of a $150 computer. It might last you for a couple dozen dives, but I would certainly not consider it a solid purchase - and certainly not the first thing I'd recommend when considering a gear purchase.
If you're strapped for cash and want to go diving, I'd rent a little gear for a few bucks and go diving.
If you HAVE to purchase gear, I'd start with your mask and fins and progress into your exposure protection, which in your case - unfortunately - may be a drysuit. If you do decide to purchase a drysuit, I recommend finding your nearest DUI dealer and scheduling an appointment to be fit properly. My favorite drysuits are the TLS350 "Signature" series suits, which are self-donning and have a telescoping torso. For a few dollars more, you can get one completely custom fit to your exact measurements. I'm also a fan of their heavier-materialed CLX450s, although that's only because I'm diving commercially.
For a really great drysuit, expect to pay something like $3,000, plus or minus based on what sort of features you get.
After you see what goes into making your suit and what sort of service you get with it, you'll understand why they're so expensive.
There are cheaper drysuit solutions on the market, and some of them "aren't bad" - but if you're looking for a truly self-donning suit with a custom fit and a telescoping torso, there's only one solution on the market. All others will be a compromise.
...Which is why I recommend taking the few bucks that you've got and going diving with it rather than buying gear with it.
There's simply no way that I'm going to encourage you to purchase any gear yet, and when you do purchase, the computer will be the last thing that I recommend.
That said, there are three vital pieces of equipment: a depth gauge, a timer, and an SPG. How you choose to package them is up to you, but inside of a metal and glass "computer" on my right wrist (plus the SPG clipped on my left hip) is my favorite way. I believe you'll find that metal and glass is dramatically more durable and readable than anything you'll find made of plastic. Halcyon, Dive Rite, DIR Zone, ScubaPro and the like all make very nice 2" brass and glass SPGs. Avoid the boot, as it serves very little to protect anything, and creates a trap for water to create corrosion. Boots also hide problems that you might see otherwise while rinsing your gear.
There are several stainless and glass computers on the market - my personal favorite is the Suunto D6, which conveniently logs dives (and shows graphical profiles both in it's excellent software with USB connection and right on it's screen). Its face and numbers are bright and large, and the unit includes a very usable compass so you don't need a separate compass (which, in my opinion, is used a lot less than what would justify wearing a separate unit). Of course, the D6 also does temperature, ascent rate, and stopwatch with quite a number of automated features like you mention above. In computer mode, the D6 also shows NDLs... Which is fine, if you choose to use that later once you already know your NDLs pretty intimately. In gauge mode, the display is a lot better and more informative than it is in computer mode, with the display showing more information with a higher degree of accuracy (shows seconds as well as minutes, etc.)
The same software is available in the Vyper, but the Vyper is a much larger unit (meaning that you won't wear it except when diving) without the special display that allows you to see your graphical profiles. The Vyper also isn't metal and glass.
That said, all of the gauges I mention above are fairly pricey units - but then, you get what you pay for. Find an online source - I think I spent about $650 for my D6 delivered to my door. I saw one shop that was selling it for almost three times that price.
...Which is why I don't think you'll get much use out of a $150 computer. It might last you for a couple dozen dives, but I would certainly not consider it a solid purchase - and certainly not the first thing I'd recommend when considering a gear purchase.
If you're strapped for cash and want to go diving, I'd rent a little gear for a few bucks and go diving.
If you HAVE to purchase gear, I'd start with your mask and fins and progress into your exposure protection, which in your case - unfortunately - may be a drysuit. If you do decide to purchase a drysuit, I recommend finding your nearest DUI dealer and scheduling an appointment to be fit properly. My favorite drysuits are the TLS350 "Signature" series suits, which are self-donning and have a telescoping torso. For a few dollars more, you can get one completely custom fit to your exact measurements. I'm also a fan of their heavier-materialed CLX450s, although that's only because I'm diving commercially.
For a really great drysuit, expect to pay something like $3,000, plus or minus based on what sort of features you get.
After you see what goes into making your suit and what sort of service you get with it, you'll understand why they're so expensive.
There are cheaper drysuit solutions on the market, and some of them "aren't bad" - but if you're looking for a truly self-donning suit with a custom fit and a telescoping torso, there's only one solution on the market. All others will be a compromise.
...Which is why I recommend taking the few bucks that you've got and going diving with it rather than buying gear with it.
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yousmellsfishy
New member
bump for a new scenario:bigeyes:
SeaJayInSC
New member
Heh. Okay, here's a good one... This happened to me with a friend of mine - a guy I'd grown up with, but hadn't talked to in like 20 years. When we caught up, I told him that I owned a commercial dive ops and he said, "I'm a diver, too!"
...So when I went to go see him at his home in Florida, we decided to go diving... His choice of sites was the newly-sunk Speigel Grove, laying on it's side at the time (it's since been righted by a hurricane).
Both of us were similarly equipped with a single tank of MOD120 (extra credit points for telling me what mix that is) and 3mil full wetsuits for this warm dive. Since the bottom of the "wreck" was at 137 feet, we set our plan to include a max depth of 120... Although we spent nearly the entire dive at about 80', checking out the ship's guns and exploring the new plaque, the raised American flag, and basically getting some super-cool photo ops.
I was surprised to find fairly good situational awareness in my buddy - so many non-professional divers really get focused on the dive and pretty much "zone out" and forget to watch everything that's going on. We stayed in constant contact with each other, and communicated well.
...What didn't surprise me was his vertical profile in the water - and the fact that he used his hands to "scull" quite a bit - telling me that while he was pretty comfortable in the water, he hadn't quite nailed his buoyancy and trim yet. This was probably a little exasperated by his lack of backplate and wings - he was diving a Zeagle Ranger without it's optional plate and had not yet learned to use his trim pockets, which would have worked similarly in terms of buoyancy and trim.
Exploring over the top of the "wreck" and about 15 minutes into the dive, we were both rounding about 1200 psi and considering leaving in the next five minutes or so (our runtime was planned at 22 minutes) when I watched him drop down into one of the 'Grove's long hallways.
Needless to say, we were not prepared - nor had we planned for - any kind of penetration or overhead diving.
Looking into the doorway of the hall, I could plainly see that it was in the realm of 100' long - maybe longer. The end was shrouded in darkness, which was now being explored by my buddy's powerful light beam. In much of the hallway, however, there were holes cut in the ceiling to allow divers to avoid having to swim all the way back out - easy exit could be found at any of these large "windows," where sunlight streamed in like ghostly Roman columns.
I signalled to my buddy, who looked back and gave me a big "okay" sign with his light. Then he motioned me to follow, made a left at a doorway - which, since the ship was on it's side, actually led him downward into deeper water - and disappeared from view.
Of course, the "wreck" was new - and comparatively shallow, in warm, clear water. It was also very "sterilized" in that there were no obstructions or cables or wires or anything to cause potential hazards. Yet, I was presented with a very uncomfortable situation - I didn't like either of my options to leave my buddy or follow him into unplanned overhead, which really appeared to be pretty mundane.
Still, my SPG was beginning to tick around 1000 psi, and we were minutes from our planned ascent.
Our dive didn't end in any kind of tragedy - but that was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever had to face underwater. As I hung at the hallway entrance, memories of us being 14 years old together the day his parents gave him a new motorcycle... And with me on the back, him deciding to run it (at about a bazillion miles an hour) down the street for a mile or so to a nearby trail - where he wanted to do the biggest "jump" we dared make on our BMX bikes... Came flooding into my mind. Had I avoided him for the past 20 years for concern of his recklessness? Yet, as an adult he held an enviable postion in a great job and had a wonderful family and a beautiful home and a couple of kids playing in the backyard pool... More than I had at the time. Had I lived the past 20 years too conservatively?
Self-doubt began to surface. I hovered there at the entrance, once again 14 years old and wondering what I should decide to do.
What would you do?
Okay, here's a good one... This happened to me with a friend of mine - a guy I'd grown up with, but hadn't talked to in like 20 years. When we caught up, I told him that I owned a commercial dive ops and he said, "I'm a diver, too!"...So when I went to go see him at his home in Florida, we decided to go diving... His choice of sites was the newly-sunk Speigel Grove, laying on it's side at the time (it's since been righted by a hurricane).
Both of us were similarly equipped with a single tank of MOD120 (extra credit points for telling me what mix that is) and 3mil full wetsuits for this warm dive. Since the bottom of the "wreck" was at 137 feet, we set our plan to include a max depth of 120... Although we spent nearly the entire dive at about 80', checking out the ship's guns and exploring the new plaque, the raised American flag, and basically getting some super-cool photo ops.
I was surprised to find fairly good situational awareness in my buddy - so many non-professional divers really get focused on the dive and pretty much "zone out" and forget to watch everything that's going on. We stayed in constant contact with each other, and communicated well.
...What didn't surprise me was his vertical profile in the water - and the fact that he used his hands to "scull" quite a bit - telling me that while he was pretty comfortable in the water, he hadn't quite nailed his buoyancy and trim yet. This was probably a little exasperated by his lack of backplate and wings - he was diving a Zeagle Ranger without it's optional plate and had not yet learned to use his trim pockets, which would have worked similarly in terms of buoyancy and trim.
Exploring over the top of the "wreck" and about 15 minutes into the dive, we were both rounding about 1200 psi and considering leaving in the next five minutes or so (our runtime was planned at 22 minutes) when I watched him drop down into one of the 'Grove's long hallways.
Needless to say, we were not prepared - nor had we planned for - any kind of penetration or overhead diving.
Looking into the doorway of the hall, I could plainly see that it was in the realm of 100' long - maybe longer. The end was shrouded in darkness, which was now being explored by my buddy's powerful light beam. In much of the hallway, however, there were holes cut in the ceiling to allow divers to avoid having to swim all the way back out - easy exit could be found at any of these large "windows," where sunlight streamed in like ghostly Roman columns.
I signalled to my buddy, who looked back and gave me a big "okay" sign with his light. Then he motioned me to follow, made a left at a doorway - which, since the ship was on it's side, actually led him downward into deeper water - and disappeared from view.
Of course, the "wreck" was new - and comparatively shallow, in warm, clear water. It was also very "sterilized" in that there were no obstructions or cables or wires or anything to cause potential hazards. Yet, I was presented with a very uncomfortable situation - I didn't like either of my options to leave my buddy or follow him into unplanned overhead, which really appeared to be pretty mundane.
Still, my SPG was beginning to tick around 1000 psi, and we were minutes from our planned ascent.
Our dive didn't end in any kind of tragedy - but that was one of the most difficult decisions I've ever had to face underwater. As I hung at the hallway entrance, memories of us being 14 years old together the day his parents gave him a new motorcycle... And with me on the back, him deciding to run it (at about a bazillion miles an hour) down the street for a mile or so to a nearby trail - where he wanted to do the biggest "jump" we dared make on our BMX bikes... Came flooding into my mind. Had I avoided him for the past 20 years for concern of his recklessness? Yet, as an adult he held an enviable postion in a great job and had a wonderful family and a beautiful home and a couple of kids playing in the backyard pool... More than I had at the time. Had I lived the past 20 years too conservatively?
Self-doubt began to surface. I hovered there at the entrance, once again 14 years old and wondering what I should decide to do.
What would you do?
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tgreene
Reefer
Since there were "escape ports" cut every so often, I would go along the top of those if you absolutely didn't want to enter the overhead, get closest to his position, and begin banging to get his attention and begin to surface upon his exit.
Once topside, we would discuss this plan deviation that took place w/o mutual consent or planning!
-Tim
Once topside, we would discuss this plan deviation that took place w/o mutual consent or planning!
-Tim
yousmellsfishy
New member
EAN32
yousmellsfishy
New member
+1
SeaJayInSC
New member
*DING!*
+10 points for yousmellsfishy.
yousmellsfishy
New member
So, what did you do?
SeaJayInSC
New member
Well, I shook my head in frustration and did the only thing I could to get his attention - I went in after him. I never left the hallway with the sunlight streaming in, as I was able to get his attention with my light when I arrived at the door that he'd descended into. He kept waving me to come with him, but there was pretty much no way I was going to leave the obvious exit out without a dive plan, redundant tanks, the rule of thirds, and a guide line. I was also missing a buddy with better buoyancy skills, a more appropriate attitude about penetration diving, and two more lights (since my buddy didn't have one, I gave him one of my two backups that I always carry - so there were only two lights between us, not four to six like would be necessary for two divers in penetration).
In retrospect, I don't think I did the right thing - the bottom line is that yes, I penetrated the wreck and was not prepared to do so. It can be argued, however, that if I didn't leave the photic zone (I could still see sunlight), then I was technically fine... And that the danger really lied at the doorway, not at the hallway. Even if that's true, however, I think my mistake was "deviating from the plan," although if I hadn't gone in, I would have committed the mistake of not maintaining contact with my buddy.
The bottom line is that either way, I had to commit a mistake, which was brought on by my buddy's actions.
...Which is really a huge lesson about life in general, and choosing the people with whom you associate. I love that guy, and he'll always be my buddy... But there's no question that I am uncomfortable that his actions and decisions consistently place me in positions that force me to make losing choices.
I haven't dived with him since... Not on purpose, mind you - he lives many hours from me - but I try not to dive with people who have unsafe attitudes... Which I believe my buddy personifies.
...And not just in diving; it's just that in diving, the consequences for his unsafe attitude are much more dire.
In retrospect, I don't think I did the right thing - the bottom line is that yes, I penetrated the wreck and was not prepared to do so. It can be argued, however, that if I didn't leave the photic zone (I could still see sunlight), then I was technically fine... And that the danger really lied at the doorway, not at the hallway. Even if that's true, however, I think my mistake was "deviating from the plan," although if I hadn't gone in, I would have committed the mistake of not maintaining contact with my buddy.
The bottom line is that either way, I had to commit a mistake, which was brought on by my buddy's actions.
...Which is really a huge lesson about life in general, and choosing the people with whom you associate. I love that guy, and he'll always be my buddy... But there's no question that I am uncomfortable that his actions and decisions consistently place me in positions that force me to make losing choices.
I haven't dived with him since... Not on purpose, mind you - he lives many hours from me - but I try not to dive with people who have unsafe attitudes... Which I believe my buddy personifies.
...And not just in diving; it's just that in diving, the consequences for his unsafe attitude are much more dire.
SeaJayInSC
New member
New scenario:
You're diving a wreck sunk in 1893. You're slightly offshore (around 3 miles), and the wreck is virtually virgin.
...Which sounds great. Unfortunately, even calm seas (less than 2 feet) produce terrible surge across the wreck, since the area is so shallow that parts of the ship actually stick out of the water. Max depth is around 18', and visibility is a murky 1 1/2 feet or so.
Descending with your very experienced buddy, you start at your anchor line and move forward to a virtual wall of sea life covering what appears to be large metal plates covering what is left of a wooden hull. You know you're not far from the ship's boilers and side paddle wheel, according to the folklore, drawings and legends of the ship, and according to the side scan image that you took an hour ago.
Moving up the wall of jagged metal and splinters, you get into water shallow enough to actually allow some of the sunlight from above to trickle down and create a greenish-white haze everywhere. Paying close attention to your buddy's light to know where he is, the wave action from above begins to float and bob you all over the place, and you have a difficult time not bashing the 100+ year-old wreck, which threatens to slice you and your gear to bits.
Together the two of you move down onto the deck of what's left of the ship. At only 12' of depth, most ambient light is extinguished, but you can see with your handheld lights that the deck is completely covered in lines, cables, what were probably once sails, and even a couple of shrimp nets from trawlers unlucky enough to have snagged the wreck.
With all of your attention and effort focused on maintaining some semblance of control while both watching your buddy and seeing everything on the wreck in "macro" mode (very little visibility), you come across a series of bottles standing upright in a neat row, concreted there by more than 100 years of sea life. There's more than two dozen of them packed together... You know from previous discoveries that these bottles were once inside a wooden box, and may have had paper labels on them. The box has long since rotted away, and the labels, if they were once there, are now gone... But the bottles still stand on the deck in their original position, providing a base to which every plant and animal of the sea attach.
Close inspection of the bottles reveals that they are dispensary bottles - bottles made locally around the turn of the 20th century at a now-defunct manufacturing plant on a nearby island. These are heavily sought after by collectors, and can fetch $1200 or more, even on eBay. These are in particularly excellent condition, as the concretion has done a nice job of protecting them from the ravages of current and sand.
What would you do?
You're diving a wreck sunk in 1893. You're slightly offshore (around 3 miles), and the wreck is virtually virgin.
...Which sounds great. Unfortunately, even calm seas (less than 2 feet) produce terrible surge across the wreck, since the area is so shallow that parts of the ship actually stick out of the water. Max depth is around 18', and visibility is a murky 1 1/2 feet or so.
Descending with your very experienced buddy, you start at your anchor line and move forward to a virtual wall of sea life covering what appears to be large metal plates covering what is left of a wooden hull. You know you're not far from the ship's boilers and side paddle wheel, according to the folklore, drawings and legends of the ship, and according to the side scan image that you took an hour ago.
Moving up the wall of jagged metal and splinters, you get into water shallow enough to actually allow some of the sunlight from above to trickle down and create a greenish-white haze everywhere. Paying close attention to your buddy's light to know where he is, the wave action from above begins to float and bob you all over the place, and you have a difficult time not bashing the 100+ year-old wreck, which threatens to slice you and your gear to bits.
Together the two of you move down onto the deck of what's left of the ship. At only 12' of depth, most ambient light is extinguished, but you can see with your handheld lights that the deck is completely covered in lines, cables, what were probably once sails, and even a couple of shrimp nets from trawlers unlucky enough to have snagged the wreck.
With all of your attention and effort focused on maintaining some semblance of control while both watching your buddy and seeing everything on the wreck in "macro" mode (very little visibility), you come across a series of bottles standing upright in a neat row, concreted there by more than 100 years of sea life. There's more than two dozen of them packed together... You know from previous discoveries that these bottles were once inside a wooden box, and may have had paper labels on them. The box has long since rotted away, and the labels, if they were once there, are now gone... But the bottles still stand on the deck in their original position, providing a base to which every plant and animal of the sea attach.
Close inspection of the bottles reveals that they are dispensary bottles - bottles made locally around the turn of the 20th century at a now-defunct manufacturing plant on a nearby island. These are heavily sought after by collectors, and can fetch $1200 or more, even on eBay. These are in particularly excellent condition, as the concretion has done a nice job of protecting them from the ravages of current and sand.
What would you do?
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tgreene
Reefer
I would leave everything exactly the way that we found it, and swear my buddy to absolute secrecy about the dive and location of this find... Some things should remain sacred and intact!
I would however be inclined to plan an annual visitation to the site, just to watch the continued changes over time.
-Tim
I would however be inclined to plan an annual visitation to the site, just to watch the continued changes over time.
-Tim
yousmellsfishy
New member
Judging by the quote in your signature, SeaJayInNC, I don't think that's what you'd do. By the way, who are you quoting there?
With the risk of entanglement so high, I'd get out of there and maybe come back when conditions were more favorable -less surge.
SeaJayInSC
New member
I'm flattered that you think someone important wrote that.
Just me. All of the agencies that I've trained with support exactly what tgreene says. One of the agencies goes so far as to actually say, "Take only pictures, leave only bubbles."
Me? What would I do in that situation? I'd bag those suckers in a heartbeat, clean them of their concretions and eBay them to the highest bidder. Period.
...And I wouldn't tell a soul about them - except for the winner of the bid, of course. Him - I'd write a "certificate" or something about the artifact, frame it, and include it with the item so that the history is told and remembered and the story can be told from generation to generation. I would do my best to preserve the history and share it... Which is the only point to history in the first place.
...Then I'd go back to the ship and do it again and again without telling anyone who's not willing to pay for the information.
Those people that complain about divers "stealing" history have no idea what they're talking about. The State and the Feds have no clue, either. They know only what I let them know. I know that sounds arrogant, but I do not play by someone else's "rules" when it comes to priceless artifacts. If they want them, then they'll have to work for them just like I did, doing the research and doing the dives and risking their lives and making sure that the story is told and the history preserved. The only "theif" is someone who comes along and hides behind some obscure rule or law that may or may not be applicable and then steals the artifact from the one who's worked for it... Only to have it disappear in the basement of a museum somewhere, for nobody to ever see.
Negative, I would not let it lay there and be reclaimed by the sea, forgotten about by all. But I sure am glad that you do.
yousmellsfishy
New member
:lol:<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15238245#post15238245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
I would not let it lay there and be reclaimed by the sea, forgotten about by all. But I sure am glad that you do.
SeaJayInSC
New member
Sorry, that was mean, wasn't it?
My frustration's not directed at Tim... He's actually right - that's the right mindset, according to all of the agencies and many divers worldwide.
I just don't personally agree with it. I have seen much better "historical preservation" of an artifact when the diver is allowed to do with it what he pleases... Even if it only ends up on his mantle. At least there, it's on display for his friends and family. If someone official (government, museum, collector) wants the item, then they can pay for it just like the diver did. Believe me, when the item is sold to the highest bidder, it is considered much more valuable than if it was donated. 99% of the stuff I've seen get donated to museums ends up in the basement somewhere, rarely on display... And it's even worse when given to a nondescript government agency. In some cases, I've actually seen government agencies go BACK to the dive site AND PUT THE ITEM BACK. In one case, a week later a law was passed that allowed local "licensed" divers to remove a limited number of artifacts from that exact dive site. So guess what happened? Yep... Another diver went right back to the site specifically to recover that exact artifact. So... One diver finds it, turns it over to the government as a "moral obligation," the government then takes it back to the dive site and throws it back (all of this makes the news, of course), and then "opens season" to other divers... So it's recovered again by another diver.
That other diver? Someone from another country. *Poof* the item was gone, just like that.
Later, when asked about the item - a set of shackles from a sunk slave ship - literally priceless to some of the local direct descendants from slaves - the diver had forgotten where he'd put them. He had no understanding of the historical significance. Why would it matter to him, anyway?
Talk about a piece of history being lost!
Do NOT trust the government when it comes to salvage or recovery. They are not on your side... In fact, they're not even on LOGIC's side. I have yet to see ONCE where the government has done something positive with a historical artifact.
...But an individual who paid a lot of money for an artifact? Not ONCE have I ever seen that item any less than completely coveted by the collector.
See, the truth is that this has less to do with people's concern over the artifact and it's historical preservation and more about plain ol' fashioned GREED. Consider it when someone telling you what you should do with your artifact. Nine times out of ten, they'll try to convince you that you NEED TO GIVE IT UP, usually somehow inadvertently benefitting themselves.
Guess who made money out of those shackles? The same government agency that threw them back into the sea... They sold more than six hundred $45 "artifact hunter's licenses" less than three weeks after they threw them back. For those of you who are math-challenged, that's $27,000 in three weeks. *Poof.*
Go figure. Maybe there really is some logic in there after all.
The diver that originally found them? No money, no fame, no recognition, and no artifact. All he did was spend his time, money and effort for nothing.
Stupid... Here's a guy capable of retrieving history... And what do we do for him? Strip him of his prize and forget his name... Tell him it's a "moral obligation" or some kind of crap.
To the best of my knowlege, he doesn't dive much any more. What a shame. We could have all benefitted from rewarding the man and having him find more...
Anyway, enough on that.
My frustration's not directed at Tim... He's actually right - that's the right mindset, according to all of the agencies and many divers worldwide.
I just don't personally agree with it. I have seen much better "historical preservation" of an artifact when the diver is allowed to do with it what he pleases... Even if it only ends up on his mantle. At least there, it's on display for his friends and family. If someone official (government, museum, collector) wants the item, then they can pay for it just like the diver did. Believe me, when the item is sold to the highest bidder, it is considered much more valuable than if it was donated. 99% of the stuff I've seen get donated to museums ends up in the basement somewhere, rarely on display... And it's even worse when given to a nondescript government agency. In some cases, I've actually seen government agencies go BACK to the dive site AND PUT THE ITEM BACK. In one case, a week later a law was passed that allowed local "licensed" divers to remove a limited number of artifacts from that exact dive site. So guess what happened? Yep... Another diver went right back to the site specifically to recover that exact artifact. So... One diver finds it, turns it over to the government as a "moral obligation," the government then takes it back to the dive site and throws it back (all of this makes the news, of course), and then "opens season" to other divers... So it's recovered again by another diver.
That other diver? Someone from another country. *Poof* the item was gone, just like that.
Later, when asked about the item - a set of shackles from a sunk slave ship - literally priceless to some of the local direct descendants from slaves - the diver had forgotten where he'd put them. He had no understanding of the historical significance. Why would it matter to him, anyway?
Talk about a piece of history being lost!
Do NOT trust the government when it comes to salvage or recovery. They are not on your side... In fact, they're not even on LOGIC's side. I have yet to see ONCE where the government has done something positive with a historical artifact.
...But an individual who paid a lot of money for an artifact? Not ONCE have I ever seen that item any less than completely coveted by the collector.
See, the truth is that this has less to do with people's concern over the artifact and it's historical preservation and more about plain ol' fashioned GREED. Consider it when someone telling you what you should do with your artifact. Nine times out of ten, they'll try to convince you that you NEED TO GIVE IT UP, usually somehow inadvertently benefitting themselves.
Guess who made money out of those shackles? The same government agency that threw them back into the sea... They sold more than six hundred $45 "artifact hunter's licenses" less than three weeks after they threw them back. For those of you who are math-challenged, that's $27,000 in three weeks. *Poof.*
Go figure. Maybe there really is some logic in there after all.
The diver that originally found them? No money, no fame, no recognition, and no artifact. All he did was spend his time, money and effort for nothing.
Stupid... Here's a guy capable of retrieving history... And what do we do for him? Strip him of his prize and forget his name... Tell him it's a "moral obligation" or some kind of crap.
To the best of my knowlege, he doesn't dive much any more. What a shame. We could have all benefitted from rewarding the man and having him find more...
Anyway, enough on that.
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tgreene
Reefer
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm all about it... My comments were in regards to this being a VIRGIN site!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving 1 or 2 sites here and there fully intact and completely off limits, because if it remains this way, this coupld wellbe the best way to fully preserve a portion of history. Once the site has been picked however, all bets are off.
Look at what has happened to caves all around the world. They have been "picked clean" so that others can "enjoy the beauty" without having to take the effort to actually go underground to see them in all their spendor.
When I was working as a whitewater guide, there was this one waterfall that I had always wanted to run in the worst way... I wanted it so bad that I could taste it, though being a very dangerous class-vi run, the penalty for screwing it up would be severe to say the least. This waterfall (Big Splat) was located on the Big Sandy Creek in West Virginia, and every time that we ran the river I would sit and stare at the line over that particular set of waterfalls while a very select few other boaters would run them. As much as I could taste the exileration of running it, my boss kept insisting that every now and again you'll come across something that must truly be respected for all her glory, and leave her alone. For him, Big Splat was that "thing". Being one of the original hardcore pioneers of the American whitewater scene, he had done just about everything worth doing, and had many first descents on rivers scattered around the globe. This was quite literally in his backyard, and he had never run it, nor would he allow me to do so as long as I worked for him.
It's just a different perspective, that's all.
-Tim
There is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving 1 or 2 sites here and there fully intact and completely off limits, because if it remains this way, this coupld wellbe the best way to fully preserve a portion of history. Once the site has been picked however, all bets are off.
Look at what has happened to caves all around the world. They have been "picked clean" so that others can "enjoy the beauty" without having to take the effort to actually go underground to see them in all their spendor.
When I was working as a whitewater guide, there was this one waterfall that I had always wanted to run in the worst way... I wanted it so bad that I could taste it, though being a very dangerous class-vi run, the penalty for screwing it up would be severe to say the least. This waterfall (Big Splat) was located on the Big Sandy Creek in West Virginia, and every time that we ran the river I would sit and stare at the line over that particular set of waterfalls while a very select few other boaters would run them. As much as I could taste the exileration of running it, my boss kept insisting that every now and again you'll come across something that must truly be respected for all her glory, and leave her alone. For him, Big Splat was that "thing". Being one of the original hardcore pioneers of the American whitewater scene, he had done just about everything worth doing, and had many first descents on rivers scattered around the globe. This was quite literally in his backyard, and he had never run it, nor would he allow me to do so as long as I worked for him.
It's just a different perspective, that's all.
-Tim
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