A Game: WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
- Thread starter SeaJayInSC
- Start date
SeaJayInSC
New member
Cool!
Yep, you're both dead on - the diver's mentality - his lack of focus for whatever reason - was the problem.
Is a Spare-Air the solution? A pony bottle? A bigger tank? An air-integrated, console-mounted computer?
A hookah rig? Giving up the sport? A better buddy? Split fins? Helmet lights? Some kind of beeper that tells you when you're low on air? A rebreather? More tanks? Wireless communication?
Some of these examples may seem logical - others, not so much. Nonetheless, I have seen all of these solutions applied to the "I ran out of air" scenario.
Some of these things may provide a solution for a symptom, but what is a solution for the problem?
Yep, you're both dead on - the diver's mentality - his lack of focus for whatever reason - was the problem.
Is a Spare-Air the solution? A pony bottle? A bigger tank? An air-integrated, console-mounted computer?
A hookah rig? Giving up the sport? A better buddy? Split fins? Helmet lights? Some kind of beeper that tells you when you're low on air? A rebreather? More tanks? Wireless communication?
Some of these examples may seem logical - others, not so much. Nonetheless, I have seen all of these solutions applied to the "I ran out of air" scenario.
Some of these things may provide a solution for a symptom, but what is a solution for the problem?
Last edited:
tgreene
Reefer
The only real solution is attentiveness!
Now, my own rationale for carrying a 19cf Pony, is as you know more based upon a medical issue that "could" place me in a position of sucking a tank dry during or immediately following a seizure, which is when I need to get stationary and relax. No matter what, I'll always know that I have enough spare-air to safely surface if the dive is based upon a standard fill AL80. I also fully recognize that the first time I have to place the Pony reg in my mouth, my day is over... No if's and's or but's about it!
I'll take the burden of additional safety measures so as to never potentially place anyone else at risk, because if I'm going to dive, then that becomes my responsibility!
-Tim
Now, my own rationale for carrying a 19cf Pony, is as you know more based upon a medical issue that "could" place me in a position of sucking a tank dry during or immediately following a seizure, which is when I need to get stationary and relax. No matter what, I'll always know that I have enough spare-air to safely surface if the dive is based upon a standard fill AL80. I also fully recognize that the first time I have to place the Pony reg in my mouth, my day is over... No if's and's or but's about it!
I'll take the burden of additional safety measures so as to never potentially place anyone else at risk, because if I'm going to dive, then that becomes my responsibility!
-Tim
SeaJayInSC
New member
Awesome. 
Anyone figured out how to teach attentiveness yet? I've seen that more experienced divers tend to have more "situational awareness" than noobs... But that's the irony - it's the noob that really needs to have it!
New scenario:
You're diving with your favorite buddy. Things are looking good - you're having a great time. 20 minutes into a 50' dive, you've got plenty of gas left, and so does he. The entire dive couldn't be better.
When you look over to your buddy, you smile beneath your reg and give him the okay sign.
He gives you two thumbs up.
What would you do?
Anyone figured out how to teach attentiveness yet? I've seen that more experienced divers tend to have more "situational awareness" than noobs... But that's the irony - it's the noob that really needs to have it!
New scenario:
You're diving with your favorite buddy. Things are looking good - you're having a great time. 20 minutes into a 50' dive, you've got plenty of gas left, and so does he. The entire dive couldn't be better.
When you look over to your buddy, you smile beneath your reg and give him the okay sign.
He gives you two thumbs up.
What would you do?
SeaJayInSC
New member
Sorry SWINGERRRR! Didn't mean to run you over... Your turn!
...Then you've got to come up with a scenario... Either a "What Would You Do" or a "Identify the symptom/problem/solution."
tgreene
Reefer
Throw him the OK sign and wait for him to respond accordingly or indicate otherwise!<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15078922#post15078922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Awesome.
Anyone figured out how to teach attentiveness yet? I've seen that more experienced divers tend to have more "situational awareness" than noobs... But that's the irony - it's the noob that really needs to have it!
New scenario:
You're diving with your favorite buddy. Things are looking good - you're having a great time. 20 minutes into a 50' dive, you've got plenty of gas left, and so does he. The entire dive couldn't be better.
When you look over to your buddy, you smile beneath your reg and give him the okay sign.
He gives you two thumbs up.
What would you do?
You're both having fun, and he simply forgot that underwater the hand signals are not the same as above water.
-Tim
yousmellsfishy
New member
Agreed. I've caught myself giving 2 thumbs up meaning things are great, not "time to ascend". I'm a total noob. Just did dive # 15 this week.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15079268#post15079268 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tgreene
Throw him the OK sign and wait for him to respond accordingly or indicate otherwise!
You're both having fun, and he simply forgot that underwater the hand signals are not the same as above water.
-Tim
Hey, what ever happened to the guy that was being swept away by the current from his achored boat in the river?
SeaJayInSC
New member
Oh yeah... The diver that was right here with us on the boat when we came out... Joe. He's right he... Joe? Joe!? JOE!
Oh ****... Someone go get him!
Just kidding...
I've only had that happen to me once. Luckily, my buddy came up and saw that I was not going to make it. He got in the boat and came and got me.
To me, my alternative was to swim to shore, doff my gear (make it visible from the water) and hike a mile or two upriver and get back in the water... Without gear, but WITH my fins. I'd have been pretty ticked, but that's the drill. Buddies who dive with me know that if one of us misses the boat, the plan is to swim to shore, leave gear out so that it can be seen, then do the hike. From there, it's a matter of deduction to find each other again... That is, if the plan is not to surface 2 minutes after losing your buddy anyway.
I think the real right answer is to know where your buddy is at all times - AND to have someone on the boat that can come and get you (has to be able to drive the boat).
...But since dive locations for fossils are so coveted and secretive, and because we can never find anyone just willing to sit on a boat all day, we don't always have that opportunity.
Anyway, that's how we do it. I don't know that I'd recommend doing it that way - it's a much better idea to always have someone on the boat. Having someone on the boat also works in all situations, which means that it's practiced and practical and consistent, making the dives routine and therefore easier.
'Guess I'm an "Around Here" boater. Doesn't mean that's the RIGHT way to do it, though... That's just what we choose to do.
Re: "Thumbs up" scenario... I'm gonna agree with Tim on this one - I think I'd double-check what my buddy was trying to say. That said, to me, "thumbs up" means "end the dive" - right now, with no argument. I will never be upset or otherwise give someone a hard time about ending a dive, even if I don't understand why they're ending it.
I've had situations like that where, on our ascent, I was thinking, "What the heck?" When I got topside, I found out that they'd suffered deep jellyfish stings all over their face and were in quite a bit of pain. They had no way of communicating that to me at the time.
Glad I didn't argue... I'd have felt like a real butthead.
Oh ****... Someone go get him!
Just kidding...
I've only had that happen to me once. Luckily, my buddy came up and saw that I was not going to make it. He got in the boat and came and got me.
To me, my alternative was to swim to shore, doff my gear (make it visible from the water) and hike a mile or two upriver and get back in the water... Without gear, but WITH my fins. I'd have been pretty ticked, but that's the drill. Buddies who dive with me know that if one of us misses the boat, the plan is to swim to shore, leave gear out so that it can be seen, then do the hike. From there, it's a matter of deduction to find each other again... That is, if the plan is not to surface 2 minutes after losing your buddy anyway.
I think the real right answer is to know where your buddy is at all times - AND to have someone on the boat that can come and get you (has to be able to drive the boat).
...But since dive locations for fossils are so coveted and secretive, and because we can never find anyone just willing to sit on a boat all day, we don't always have that opportunity.
Anyway, that's how we do it. I don't know that I'd recommend doing it that way - it's a much better idea to always have someone on the boat. Having someone on the boat also works in all situations, which means that it's practiced and practical and consistent, making the dives routine and therefore easier.
'Guess I'm an "Around Here" boater.
Doesn't mean that's the RIGHT way to do it, though... That's just what we choose to do.Re: "Thumbs up" scenario... I'm gonna agree with Tim on this one - I think I'd double-check what my buddy was trying to say. That said, to me, "thumbs up" means "end the dive" - right now, with no argument. I will never be upset or otherwise give someone a hard time about ending a dive, even if I don't understand why they're ending it.
I've had situations like that where, on our ascent, I was thinking, "What the heck?" When I got topside, I found out that they'd suffered deep jellyfish stings all over their face and were in quite a bit of pain. They had no way of communicating that to me at the time.
Glad I didn't argue... I'd have felt like a real butthead.
tgreene
Reefer
Killjoy .. I liked my ending better!<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15080782#post15080782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeaJayInSC
Oh yeah... The diver that was right here with us on the boat when we came out... Joe. He's right he... Joe? Joe!? JOE!
Oh ****... Someone go get him!
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
In my short experience, quite the opposite. The group I dove with, we did alot of stupid things. We dove together all the time, and got comfortable with each other. It wasn't really mistakes, but stupid things we did while diving. We just got comfortable and complacent, the superman syndrome. Looking back, I was alot more cautious and "scared" when I was new.
Just FYI, I was a police diver for a little over 2 years. All the guys on my team were hardcore divers. We all "knew it all, talked the talk, and walked the walk." But the stuff we did was stupid. Deco dives, no safety stops, sucking tanks dry, then relying on pony bottles, or just blowing to the top. We would free dive 40-50 feet and rip the new guys or visitors masks off. Shallow water blackout meant nothing to us.
My diving career was cut short by cancer though.
When you are new, you are so in tune with everything. You watch every move you make for fear of making a mistake. The more experienced, and comfortable you get, its "same ole dive, same ole dive."
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
No biggie. I though all day of a really great one, but you've seemed to hit almost all the basics.
Your diving with your buddy. You are both pretty experienced OW divers. You are hitting a new wreck that both of you have dove a hundred times. You only down 40' so you pretty much have hours on the bottom. Your along the bottom and come upon an open door to the wreck. You buddy goes in head first, without asking. Against your better judgment, you stick your head in. Neither of you are trained for this. You clearly see your buddy going down what appears to be a hallway. You think to your self, straight in, straight out. You enter and go maybe 10feet when you are pulled from behind. You struggle again. Still not budging. YOU STUCK. YOUR VALVE IS HUNG ON SOMETHING!!!! All your thrashing around has kicked up all the silt, and vis goes to zero. You grab for your light to signal your buddy, but nothing.
What would you do? (I have a couple of curve balls to throw out there depending on answers.)
tgreene
Reefer
Keep your regulator in mouth, then remove and dislodge your BC. Once your BC is back on and properly secured, BANG THE HELL OUT OF YOUR TANK, then feel your way out.
Your buddy was absolutely wrong to enter an overhead compartment without both of you being completely on board with it, and there comes a time when you have to think in terms of my life is more valuable than his...
Once you've freed yourself and carefully exited, you sit and wait at the entrance for your buddy to return, while continuing to bang on your tank and flash your light inside of the compartment in the hopes off getting his attention. Once your bottom time is nearly up, you do a quick swim around to see if your buddy is at another exit and simply wasn't seen, then when you reach the point where you must begin surfacing, you do...
Look for your buddy on the surface, and if he's not there then IMMEDIATELY get qualified help and provide said help with a laundry list of what you personally experienced in regards to the entrapment, kicked up sediment, etc., so that they can be properly prepared for this situation.
You did what you could and had a choice to make... The possibility of 1 life or 2!
-Tim
BTW Lew, I'm still waiting for my cookie.
Your buddy was absolutely wrong to enter an overhead compartment without both of you being completely on board with it, and there comes a time when you have to think in terms of my life is more valuable than his...
Once you've freed yourself and carefully exited, you sit and wait at the entrance for your buddy to return, while continuing to bang on your tank and flash your light inside of the compartment in the hopes off getting his attention. Once your bottom time is nearly up, you do a quick swim around to see if your buddy is at another exit and simply wasn't seen, then when you reach the point where you must begin surfacing, you do...
Look for your buddy on the surface, and if he's not there then IMMEDIATELY get qualified help and provide said help with a laundry list of what you personally experienced in regards to the entrapment, kicked up sediment, etc., so that they can be properly prepared for this situation.
You did what you could and had a choice to make... The possibility of 1 life or 2!
-Tim
BTW Lew, I'm still waiting for my cookie.
SeaJayInSC
New member
"Cookie?"
Sorry, did I forget a promise I made?
Oh, no! Sorry if I was hogging the air here. This one you've come up with is a great one...
What would I do? Hmmmm... First, stop moving and wait for a moment for the mess to dissapate... And consider my next move.
Then I'd be feeling around for the monofilament, which has obviously hung my valve(s). I clear the stuff from the area between the valve and my head on a fairly common basis, so I have to assume that I'd be successful in doing so. I haven't had to doff underwater yet, but I suppose it is a possibility.
At any rate, I'd then back out and hang at the entrance and look for bubbles, which should tell me a little about my buddy, whose *** I'm going to kick later...
What kind of curve balls ya got? I wouldn't be really worried until gas got low... Which, based on what you're saying, should be a long while from now...
Good point about complacency, though... I can totally see what you mean with the experienced divers getting all comfy on their dives... I see it all the time, too.
Sorry, did I forget a promise I made?
Oh, no! Sorry if I was hogging the air here.
This one you've come up with is a great one...What would I do? Hmmmm... First, stop moving and wait for a moment for the mess to dissapate... And consider my next move.
Then I'd be feeling around for the monofilament, which has obviously hung my valve(s). I clear the stuff from the area between the valve and my head on a fairly common basis, so I have to assume that I'd be successful in doing so. I haven't had to doff underwater yet, but I suppose it is a possibility.
At any rate, I'd then back out and hang at the entrance and look for bubbles, which should tell me a little about my buddy, whose *** I'm going to kick later...
What kind of curve balls ya got? I wouldn't be really worried until gas got low... Which, based on what you're saying, should be a long while from now...
Good point about complacency, though... I can totally see what you mean with the experienced divers getting all comfy on their dives...
I see it all the time, too.
Last edited:
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
Good ideas. I would stop. Dont move a muscle and wait for the silt to settle. Once its somewhat clear, as soon as I can see the door, get a compass heading to it. Then start taking my BC off and get it freed. That way once I kick up the bottom again, hopefully I can see atleast my compass.
You manage to free your BC and make your way out the door. Even though you know your fine, your still going crazy and sucking air. Seems you air is dropping rather quickly. You make it to the door and you have 1000psi left.
What would you do frmo this point?
You manage to free your BC and make your way out the door. Even though you know your fine, your still going crazy and sucking air. Seems you air is dropping rather quickly. You make it to the door and you have 1000psi left.
What would you do frmo this point?
SeaJayInSC
New member
Tim, have a great time. We want pictures.
Well, for one, relax... There's no reason to be sucking air at this point.
1000 psi in 40' of water? Hang out for a few minutes. Any sign of my buddy? Bubbles?
Am I on a single or doubles rig? How many lights to I have on me? Do I have my spool or reel with me?
...Time to plan my rescue.
What's my bottom time so far? Max depth? Average depth? Topside equipment? Other team members?
I know that this wreck is "new," but what kind of condition is it in? How big is it? Since we've both "done it 100 times," where do I think my buddy might be? Are there entanglement hazards in the wreck, or is it a "clean" wreck? What are my chances of finding my buddy quickly?
Well, for one, relax... There's no reason to be sucking air at this point.
1000 psi in 40' of water? Hang out for a few minutes. Any sign of my buddy? Bubbles?
Am I on a single or doubles rig? How many lights to I have on me? Do I have my spool or reel with me?
...Time to plan my rescue.
What's my bottom time so far? Max depth? Average depth? Topside equipment? Other team members?
I know that this wreck is "new," but what kind of condition is it in? How big is it? Since we've both "done it 100 times," where do I think my buddy might be? Are there entanglement hazards in the wreck, or is it a "clean" wreck? What are my chances of finding my buddy quickly?
SWINGRRRR
Premium Member
No sign of buddy or bubbles. On a single rig, think OW cert here. 1 light, no reel.
Your probably looking at, you've been down, total, 7 minutes so far. Max depth is 40', avg is about 30-35. The wreck is on the bottom at 40'. Topside, there is a boat, and 2 more tanks, 1 for you, 1 for your buddy. It was just you and him. No one else.
Wreck had been down a year, its an old schooner, think Pride of Baltimore, about 90'. You have dove it hundreds of time, but this is the first time hes went inside. You have no idea where he may be. Due to its new age, its fairly clean. Its just recently starting to hold fish, so there is some line, but not much.
Do this, what you would do, and what someone with this level of training as the diver in the story should do.
Similar threads
