A little confused, Who here justifies this hobby?

[wilsonreefs]

That's kinda like justifying playing golf, riding motorcycles for fun, scuba diving, riding horses, go to the movies etc. You do it because you like to and it usually gives you pleasure! No one says you have to have a iron clad reason for everything you do..

 

[iamwrasseman]

wilsonreefs ,you just summed it up ! this tread is dragging along and poof in under 50 words you said more than any one else ...............................



close the tread now !

 

[ctenophors rule]

. If you can prove to me the modern movement isnt based on "saving the planet" then I am all ears. :spin1:

ones mind must be open before something can be proven . :spin1:

a mind only works when its open- a quote from dan's quotes.

Andrew529k you are absolutely correct. When faced with the reality that science is an ever changing endeavor and yesterdays news is todays disproved science, there isn't much to say.

just an interesting side point, if you look at knowledge in a purely mathematical sense it can be said that everything that we 'know' to be true now is likely wrong becuase in human history we have been wrong more often than right in matters associated with science.

however to assume that your always wrong because you can be is silly. thats like assuming that your a computer program because it is mathematicaly probable.

and now i believe your point is moot.:rollface:

 

[wickedfish]

I am sure our thumbprint on the ocean isn't as big as whats going on now in the Gulf of Mexico. Since I started this hobby I recycle everything compared to nothing before, I reuse things, I worry about my consumption of energy well maybe at least think more about it. I think by us moving or adjusting our lives to use less and waste a lot less on earth we will be moving in the right direction. We should only buy from sustainable sources is something everyone should think about and practice, I do agree that we should be more aware especially new hobbyist where we are getting our rocks, corals, and fish etc....I am no advocate and only side with things that feel right. Anyways this thread is long, and the motorcycle riding sounded like fun, and we should do things that give us pleasure lots of it, Oh and 3 posts slow your roll buddy.

 

[Jambi40-6&2]

Greenbean, did you get that avatar picture out of playboy?

 

[puffer21]

I have no doubt, that what we do effects the ocean in a negitive way. From the divers going into the oceans tearing it up to get a fish, using cyonide, and accidently bumping and breaking corals all effects the reef. From the live rock that helps maintain the ocean, which are being pulled out and put into our aquariums. This all has a negive impact on the reefs. However unless we are outside standing on the ground naked we are tecnically harming the envirnonment. We are all on our computers reading this right now wasting electricty, in turn harming the enviornment. However, since stading outside naked is first off probably illegal its also not how I want to live my life. What I have done though to justiy this hobby, is try to buy things that are captive grown. Make sure that when im placing the animal in my tank, I am giving it a good life. I do belive that I have done pretty well doing all of this. The only real thing I have felt like I have done wrong is taking the rocks from the ocean.

 

[timmytimtim]

What if...What if what is happening to the planet is what is suppose to be happening to the planet? What if everyone tried to stop the ice age...we would still be fighting sabre tooth tigers and the occasional T-Rex. I love the reefs and this hobby, but can't help but wonder what if.. Animals have become extinct even without PETA, maybe it's just evolution and the animal world is evolving into what it needs to become for the next 1,000,000 years. I am all about saving the world and not doing anything to destroy it, but perhaps it is meant to be. I'm not trying to justify anything. Right or wrong but just as anyone can speculate that we are destroying the reefs, someone can speculate that we are helping them by using some other crazy way of justifying what they believe...All I can do is say "HI, I'm TimmyTimTim and I'm a Reefer" and be proud of it.

 

[mykil]

I briefly scanned this thread, valid points all around, but i'll maintain that the $value of marine animals for the aquarium trade/hobby blows doors off of the commercial fishing industries prices. I know it's a vague statement, but commercial fishing slays actual tonnage annually for pennies on the dollar. I'm yankin these numbers out of thin air but for example:
say they sell tilapia to markets for 50 cents a pound
and meathead mike buys a black tang from the christmas isl. for 500 bux.
I suppose im trying to convey that hobbyists dont impact the oceans nearly as much as people think.. I think.

 

[cortez marine]

Using aquarium reform issues...a history of funding,fraud and failure

Using aquarium reform issues...a history of funding,fraud and failure

Using aquarium reform issues...is a story of mismanaged funding, premeditated fraud and predictable failure.
The entire history of the issue has actually been posted on the net for years.
Here's but a few recent links to give one some perspective. .

Like any business, organization or relationship. The people in charge of it make or break it and thats where 10 million dollars and 10 years went.

post1679552.html?hilit=marine%20aquarium%20council#p1679552

post1514828.html?hilit=mamti#p1514828

post1325090.html?hilit=mamti#p1325090

MAC killed the chances for refrom by their incompetence and squandering of the critical time period that there was concern and attention paid.

The assumption that they are...in 2010 some logical, knee jerk solution to the aquarium trades ills is galling and naive in the extreme....or perhaps just innocent and new.

Steve

 

[Rossini]

:lmao:

What if...What if what is happening to the planet is what is suppose to be happening to the planet? What if everyone tried to stop the ice age....

1. Human wisdom was a lot less developed around that time. :lol2:

2. There's not a lot you can do about changes in tectonic plate movement,milankovitch cycles, and volcanoe eruptions....these are said to have brought on the ice age.


The difference now is we are knowingly destroying our planet and taking our atmosphere past the limit in which it can keep our climate stable at the temperature that has led to us and other species to be able to flurish. If we keep raising the amount of green house gases in our atmosphere (burning fossil fuels) and destroying and filling up our carbon sinks then temperature rise is inevitabe. We know what we need to do, we have the technology and knowledge to stop the chaos that will ensue.

There is nothing natural about what we are doing at the moment.

We have around 10 years to start making major changes in the way we do things, primarily our energy. We also have to try and find ways to be happy and prosperous without running our economys based on mass consumption and materialism.

 

[Thales]

Moot, not mute

Best post ever!

 

[DgenR8]

I haven't been following this thread as close as I probably should, but there's a thing or two that I think you should all consider.

We are not destroying this planet. Mother Earth will be just fine, and back to her natural, pre human state in just a few short years (in the grand scheme of things) after she shakes us off like a dog shaking off water after a bath. Without Humans, the elements we have removed from the earth to build our machines, infrastructure and dwellings will all return to the earth, and there will be no sign that we ever even existed.
Also consider that we are animals on this planet. Weather or not you like to think of yourself as an animal, that's exactly what you are. We're a part of nature, and anything we do while we are here is "natural"
Are we dooming our own existence? Yeah, we are. The clock is ticking, and the Human animal will one day be extinct, due to our own actions, but don't think, even for a second that what we're doing isn't natural.

 

[carlosR]

I disagree with all the hand-wringing and sky is falling. The best thing that could happen for coral reefs and their inhabitants is to make them economically beneficial to the residents of those areas and so on down the line. We seem to preserve and protect that which has monetary value. As long as there is a market for them, people will harvest and sell reef creatures and attempt to protect their (human) interests. Keeping reef aquariums sparks an interest and first-hand look at exotic sea creatures for many people.
It may not be pretty but it's how we are wired as humans. What has value to us we take an interest in and protect it.

 

[cortez marine]

Math; trops vs. food fishes

Math; trops vs. food fishes

I briefly scanned this thread, valid points all around, but i'll maintain that the $value of marine animals for the aquarium trade/hobby blows doors off of the commercial fishing industries prices. I know it's a vague statement, but commercial fishing slays actual tonnage annually for pennies on the dollar. I'm yankin these numbers out of thin air but for example

:

Numbers out of thin air?
Need not be.

I have been in a Mexican fishing villlage for the past month and have access to the tonnage of fishes that are taken every day, every week, every month and every year for the past 8 years...as every days catch per fisher is recorded for purposes of payment.

Divers in Loreto, Baja had to go back to food fishing after my partner died 8 years ago and have taken an amazing amount of biomass from the sea since then.

The tonnage of food fishes taken by each out of work fish collector is incredible.

The trade off of food fish vs. aquarium fish is knowable but really....who wants to know?

Common sense already tells you an obvious truth if one has any sense of the subject matter:

1. Food fishes tend to be older then the tropicals, hence it takes longer for them to replace themselves...many tropicals are produced inside a single year.

2. Food fishes tend to be predominantly predator fishes like sharks, groupers, snappers etc. which cost much more for the environment to produce then the herbivore and omnivores that tend to be the ornamentals. It takes generations of tropical fish to make a 30 lb snapper.

3. Food fishes suffer much more as they are their extraction is abetted by entire populations of everyone in the region, the market and the country. Tropicals have a much smaller market of consumers.

4.Tropical fish dollars are measureds in ounces....food fishes in kilos. On average it takes a pickup truck full of food fishes to equal a few buckets of tropicals.

5. Tropicals are an alternative that pays better, recruits faster and are available all year round. They keep fishers from joining in and adding to the relentless, commercial hounding of food fishes to scarcity.

If it ment a differance, a good solid study could be made to show how many thousands and thousands of fishes disappear from an area when net collecting tropical fish collectors are laid off....

MAKE NO MISTAKE, stopping tropical fish collecting merely amplifies fishing impacts as fish collectors tend to be fisherman to begin with and heavy handed commercial fishing is their default occupation.

If evil.....net collecting tropical fishing is a far lesser one and reduces take from the sea. Tropical world fishers have few alternatives besides fishing and will not go hungry....quietly.
Nearly everyone of them who might be stopped....would keep fishing commercially. Perhaps this would give the illusion of "saving something".....but in reality and mathematically it would kill much more.

Steve
in Baja, Mexico









This is so true and obvious if you are ever in a fishing and collecting area

 

[Reefer08]

Wow nice to find others that feel the same way I do! I thought I was the only one who viewed this hobby as being selfish and stealing from the oceans. No real way to justify our hobby as being a positive thing to the ocean. :sad2:

 

[carlosR]

I think you miss the point unless you really view yourself as selfish etc. When I was in wildlife biology classes years ago, we debated the ethics of hunting. Spotted cats had been the bane of farmers and ranchers in certain areas of Africa. They were shot or trapped on sight then a market developed for their trophy value to big game hunters. Suddenly the cats were protected and managed because they were now a lucrative cash crop. Comes the environmental age and the cats were now prohibited from export. Their value plummeted and once again they became vermin. I'm not justifying it but I am seeing analogies. I am not greedy nor selfish nor without environmental awareness but I do know how people can put a value on resources. I also refuse to put this hobby and study in the category of wanton environmental pillage. If that's really how you feel then you do have a problem especially if you keep purchasing fish and corals. End of sermon.

 

[Rossini]

I haven't been following this thread as close as I probably should, but there's a thing or two that I think you should all consider.

We are not destroying this planet. Mother Earth will be just fine, and back to her natural, pre human state in just a few short years (in the grand scheme of things) after she shakes us off like a dog shaking off water after a bath. Without Humans, the elements we have removed from the earth to build our machines, infrastructure and dwellings will all return to the earth, and there will be no sign that we ever even existed.
Also consider that we are animals on this planet. Weather or not you like to think of yourself as an animal, that's exactly what you are. We're a part of nature, and anything we do while we are here is "natural"
Are we dooming our own existence? Yeah, we are. The clock is ticking, and the Human animal will one day be extinct, due to our own actions, but don't think, even for a second that what we're doing isn't natural.

I don't think anyones saying we will destroy the planet itself, but we are certainly destroying life on earth. Surely when you say "mother earth" you mean mother nature? Look at what we are doing to mother nature.

We are causing the biggest and fastest mass extinction this planet has ever seen. No one species has ever knowingly done that before, or even come close, there really is nothing natural about that is there?

I hear people say that we are doomed, and trying to change is futile. But I think thats just an excuse for inaction to change our ways.

I am not willing to give up on the Human Race just yet. Yes, we're a nasty lot but I'm sort of fond of some of them.

We could well fail, but while there's a chance that we can preserve the amazing amount of life on this planet we should strive with all the power we have to conserve that.

 

[iamwrasseman]

this tread starts off with a very good question and is getting some very mixed responses as i have been watching it for the past few months .very good honest concise and respectable cue ins here . so much food for thought as we are all so hungry in our quest for reasons to what we do in order to justify it .we really don't need to justify what we embellish in do we ? and if so, who do we need to justify it to as long as it's within the parameters of the law .
just my 2 pennies for this month

 

[likwidglostix]

I'm torn between two thoughts. That the few who care about saving the planet will eventually be outdone by the masses who consume with no thought to the future. This may cause coral reefs to become extinct. I also believe that as the oceans warm to a point where corals can not live where they do now, they will migrate towards the poles. Who knows, maybe a few hundred years in the future, the best coral reefs in the world will be located on the south coasts of Australia, or off the coasts of Maine, Oregon, and England.

Aside from a very few wealthy people the only tanks in the world that can show future generations what a reef looks like are in public aquariums. Having taken a trip to the Georgia Aquarium back in March, I say we do more for coral preservation than they do. The Indo-Pacific reef tank was awe inspiring and I want one just like it in my living room, but the corals were all bland. Without our need to fill our tanks with the most colorful corals we can find, future generations will never understand why our generation was so concerned with saving the reefs.

I personally believe our environment is headed for an eventual disaster. I live in VA and drive a four cylinder that gets 30/35 mpg. All of the "outdoor lovers" around here drive big pickups, suv's, and muscle cars. Every day I get stuck behind someone at work who comes to work alone in a giant conversion van. When those who claim to want to save nature don't care enough to change something as simple as their commuter vehicle, how can there be hope? Let's be honest here, if you're a hunter who wants to save the forest just to shoot animals or save the oceans so you can go fishing for sport, own up to it.

Thinking that we can stop global warming without profit is just silly. I'd love to see everyone care but the reality is, people don't. Sad, but true. Our hobby can only hope to preserve something that will one day be lost, and dream that the children who grow up with a reef tank in the house will carry on the activism that could save the world.

To iamwrasseman, the "parameters of the law" argument will never be relevant so long as there exist unjust laws. Just because you can be arrested for doing something, does not make it wrong. The majority of our laws serve to keep us honest, but not all.

 

[hamiltonguy]

I think this thread right here is justification enough. It got the OP thinking about why he's keeping a reef tank and what effect it has on the environment. It got everyone who posted thinking about their own tanks and how they effect the environment.

Alot of the reefers have kids too. So when their little one points at the tank and asks "What's that pretty flower daddy/mommy?" You can then pass the knowledge onto your kids and they might make a difference in the world.

That's my .02.