A new reefer... a new tank. What could go wrong?

[BranchingHammer]

I think I know why your PH plummeted. The CO2 coming off from your heater was in the air and was dissolved into your tank through surface exchange. When CO2 is dissolved in water, it creates carbonic acid, it’s very weak, but lowers PH. That is why people struggle with PH in the winter time because they don’t have lots of fresh air free from CO2 in their house (versus the summer with windows open). Also with the lights cycle, when the lights are on, algae in the tank can photosynthesize, absorbing carbon dioxide thus not lowering PH, when the lights go off, there is no photosynthesis and more CO2 in the water, thus lowered PH.

 

[Subsea]

Wow, sorry... I did look at this earlier and got so distracted looking at that photo I actually forgot to respond :lmao: That is a beautiful tank! How did you get the greenery to grow along the back wall like that? Was it a faux rock wall initially? I'd love to have a tank that looks like that some day. Do you actually have coral and plants both growing in the tank together? I think that's what I'm seeing, unless it's just really green corals. Do you have to trim the back wall often to keep it from going elsewhere? This seriously sent me into a tailspin of so many questions lol.

I'm not sure I follow the very last thing you wrote. Do you mean that the skimmer helps with gas exchange, or hinders it? My intuition says that with a skimmer there would be MORE gas exchange, since the skimmer is creating tons of air bubbles. Is that right? If so, then that would mean that I need to continue finding ways of breaking the surface of the water to assist with that exchange.

We turned up our return pump very early on so that there was A LOT of water coming from the return in the DT... almost enough to send it over the edge of the tank lol. It creates a lot of air bubbles in the tank, but I haven't been able to convince myself to back it off yet. The bubbles don't look pristine... but the tank has a lot of surface area breaking, and I'm constantly filling the top off tank. Until I get some additional power heads in there to help keep the water breaking, it will stay turned up. I may even leave it like that.

For certain, a protein skimmer will help gas exchange. That is where I stop endorsing them. They are ok as a back up for insurance. I much more prefer GAC and UV sterilizer, but I feed heavy and push tanks hard to grow things.

The back wall and half of right end is covered in Green Star Polyps. In some places, it has no room to grow but out, which is when I take cuttings. Once, I scraped a razor blade wide path thru the thickest mass of it. I would use a 16" strip at 1.5" wide to transfer to another tank back wall using crazy glue under water. More often, I use natural rubber bands to attach to anything. My favorite aquascaping with GSP frags is to wrap it around an upflow tube to hide it and grow coral. In 60 days the rubber photo disintegrates or you can cut it after frag attaches well, which is less than 10 days.

Yes, I have several tanks set up strictly as lagoon biotheme with ornamental macros, leathers, mushrooms and sponges as well as LPS. When I operate a captive reef tank, I feed it heavily. Corals and algae need the same thing; sunlight and nutrients. Without herbivores, the reefs of the world would be algae dominated. That is how I operate my reef tank. I feed it. When I don't like what is growing, I weed it out or as the Master Gardner, I hire janitors. It is as simple as that. For certain, mymtanks have some unsightly algae. I prefer to enjoy it without the need to continually clean. Unless something like a cynobacteria bloom demands more immediate attention.

Please note this picture. Even with cynobacteria bloom, I could have this tank immaculate in 20 minutes.

Sorry about my picture posting skills.

Same tank five years ago.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDt8QTAp0Cs

 

[Subsea]

Wow, sorry... I did look at this earlier and got so distracted looking at that photo I actually forgot to respond :lmao: That is a beautiful tank! How did you get the greenery to grow along the back wall like that? Was it a faux rock wall initially? I'd love to have a tank that looks like that some day. Do you actually have coral and plants both growing in the tank together? I think that's what I'm seeing, unless it's just really green corals. Do you have to trim the back wall often to keep it from going elsewhere? This seriously sent me into a tailspin of so many questions lol.

I'm not sure I follow the very last thing you wrote. Do you mean that the skimmer helps with gas exchange, or hinders it? My intuition says that with a skimmer there would be MORE gas exchange, since the skimmer is creating tons of air bubbles. Is that right? If so, then that would mean that I need to continue finding ways of breaking the surface of the water to assist with that exchange.

We turned up our return pump very early on so that there was A LOT of water coming from the return in the DT... almost enough to send it over the edge of the tank lol. It creates a lot of air bubbles in the tank, but I haven't been able to convince myself to back it off yet. The bubbles don't look pristine... but the tank has a lot of surface area breaking, and I'm constantly filling the top off tank. Until I get some additional power heads in there to help keep the water breaking, it will stay turned up. I may even leave it like that.

I just looked up the specs on your tank. Is that 450 liters? You have very good taste in equipment.

On a somewhat advanced topic, you are carbon dosing your tank with the high flow at the surface. Carbon dioxide in air equalizes with carbon dioxide gas saturated in the water which contributes to alkalinity with co2 in water combining to make carbonate and bicarbonate, both of which contribute to alkalinity. So there is your buffer. It is automatic and is controlled “Dynamic Equilibrium”. Now for the biochemistry magic. During photosynthesis, alkalinity coupled with photosynthesis equals glucose which is a carbon source to your tank.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_pump

 

[SereneAquatic]

I just looked up the specs on your tank. Is that 450 liters? You have very good taste in equipment.

On a somewhat advanced topic, you are carbon dosing your tank with the high flow at the surface. Carbon dioxide in air equalizes with carbon dioxide gas saturated in the water which contributes to alkalinity with co2 in water combining to make carbonate and bicarbonate, both of which contribute to alkalinity. So there is your buffer. It is automatic and is controlled "œDynamic Equilibrium". Now for the biochemistry magic. During photosynthesis, alkalinity coupled with photosynthesis equals glucose which is a carbon source to your tank.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_pump

Ha... Here's a crazy thing. I have read that wiki before about two years ago, when I was reading about reverse combustion. I would probably have never made the connection to think of that in terms of an aquarium... Probably because it relys on the ultimate 'storage' of carbon at the ocean floor. Is this where your mud comes into play? I would question if that kind of thing can work in such a small, closed system... But your tanks speak for themselves.

You have definitely given me a lot to ponder as I go forward. Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[SereneAquatic]

I think I know why your PH plummeted. The CO2 coming off from your heater was in the air and was dissolved into your tank through surface exchange. When CO2 is dissolved in water, it creates carbonic acid, it's very weak, but lowers PH. That is why people struggle with PH in the winter time because they don't have lots of fresh air free from CO2 in their house (versus the summer with windows open). Also with the lights cycle, when the lights are on, algae in the tank can photosynthesize, absorbing carbon dioxide thus not lowering PH, when the lights go off, there is no photosynthesis and more CO2 in the water, thus lowered PH.

This is kind of where my brain went... But maybe slightly different. I think essentially removed too much oxygen from the room and was suffocating the tank. Lol

At do have a carbon monoxide detector... But nothing that says that we are much lower on oxygen.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[SereneAquatic]

Wow! Great read Welcome to the forum. You will find answers to your questions by doing a search and if not just ask. There are some very knowledgeable folks here. Congrats on your new tank.

Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[SereneAquatic]

Yesterday was a bummer. The night before last, we used water from the DT for in next iteration of the QT, and fed the QT tank before we moved everyone to the new setup.

Temp and salinity were on point, and other than the yellowish tint of older water from the DT, the two tanks were identical.

When I woke up in the morning and checked on the QT before I left for work, I found that the emerald crab had died. I'm sure I'll never know exactly why... but here are some things I suspect...

1. He starved to death. Other than day 1 of arrival at my house, I had only ever seen him actually eating on the night before he died. I was actually very surprised to see him out from under his Millennium Falcon rock, as he never seemed to want to come out from under it. He really seemed to hate the glass bottom of the tank, and clung to the rock all the time, hanging upside down. I had presumed that he was coming out at night to eat, or at times when I wasn't watching... but after recalling how actively he was prowling the initial live rock that was in the tank, and how, after a single day of that, he had burrowed back into the big live rock (the one we eventually removed) and never came out anymore... I'm not sure that was the case.

2. Perhaps there was too drastic of a pH difference between the QT they had been in, and the DT water they were moved into? I find this hard to believe, even though I did not check it. The DT pH has been quite stable, and they were only in the QT for a total of 3 days with the freshly mixed saltwater.

I know it's possible that it was just 'his time' but I don't believe that. When we purchased him and on Day 1 in QT, he was quite active and eating voraciously. After that day though, we hardly saw him again. I think something about the QT was not suitable for him... but I'm not sure exactly what. I know that he was very familiar with his sandy substrate at the LFS, and he really did not like walking on the glass... but can that really be it? Is it possible that he just couldn't acclimate or bring himself to move around in a tank that was now populated with a bunch of other creatures? I have no idea.

It's a real bummer though, because he was the primary reason I went to the fish store that day, and my favorite CUC member. When I left work to head out and buy them, I said "Well... I'm off to buy a crab!"

 

[Subsea]

Does a Crab have a personality? They can act out and be rogue.

Does a Crab get depressed and cease to care about living? I doubt that, they are not high enough in the IT Department.

Does biochemistry effect crab behavior? That is the right question, but the answer is above my pay grade.

Let me comment on glass bottom for a Crab. It is not good. They should have live rock and substrate. If you had learned how to live off the land in the big tank, glass to forage on would not be appreciated.

Because I have not read any other history about your system, why bare bottomed. Also, what is your long range goal for this tank. Without substrate or a lot of live rock, your long range operation of this tank will suffer, in my opinion.

 

[ECU_Pirate]

When I woke up in the morning and checked on the QT before I left for work, I found that the emerald crab had died.

Are you sure he isn't just molting? They will go MIA during this process and when they shed their shell, it looks like a dead crab. I was certain my emerald crab had died recently, but as it turns out it was his second molt. He emerged a few days later bigger than ever! He looks like a tarantula scurrying between the rocks.

 

[SereneAquatic]

Does a Crab have a personality? They can act out and be rogue.

Does a Crab get depressed and cease to care about living? I doubt that, they are not high enough in the IT Department.

Does biochemistry effect crab behavior? That is the right question, but the answer is above my pay grade.

Let me comment on glass bottom for a Crab. It is not good. They should have live rock and substrate. If you had learned how to live off the land in the big tank, glass to forage on would not be appreciated.

Because I have not read any other history about your system, why bare bottomed. Also, what is your long range goal for this tank. Without substrate or a lot of live rock, your long range operation of this tank will suffer, in my opinion.

This is the quarantine tank [emoji4] I know you said you don't subscribe to QT, but I'm puzzled about how you could quarantine something in a bare tank and allow it to be happy when it really needs substrate. I was wondering that about a Jawfish. I want to have one, but they need sand and a burrow. How do you do that in QT? [emoji52]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[SereneAquatic]

Are you sure he isn't just molting? They will go MIA during this process and when they shed their shell, it looks like a dead crab. I was certain my emerald crab had died recently, but as it turns out it was his second molt. He emerged a few days later bigger than ever! He looks like a tarantula scurrying between the rocks.

There isn't much room to hide in the quarantine tank. I have not lifted up the rock, but you can always see him where he hides. It's a very small rock.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Subsea]

This is the quarantine tank [emoji4] I know you said you don't subscribe to QT, but I'm puzzled about how you could quarantine something in a bare tank and allow it to be happy when it really needs substrate. I was wondering that about a Jawfish. I want to have one, but they need sand and a burrow. How do you do that in QT? [emoji52]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

To properly quarantine requires many tanks each with its own net. Also, water under your fingernail.

Let me give you a more practical example using Aptasia as an example. My 25 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum got infested with Red Planaria. I had previously treated this system with "œFlat Worm X" and caused bugs to be immune to normal doses. When anything came out of that system, it got a ten fold dose of Flatworm X for 30 minutes followed by a bath of 10% hydrogen peroxide for 10 minutes.

There is plenty of kill at 10 fold dose of Flatworm X, but when the rock goes into the hydrogen peroxide batch it is collateral damage to everything but the coral: micro stars, pods, bristle worms. The coral was Green Sinularia, a few hours after the treatment the coral was doing great. Two days later, I saw the Aptasia emerging from porus rock. At that point, I put 35% hydrogen peroxide concentrate on tooth brush and when bristles penetrated Aptasia membrane, Aptasia bubbled away.
Note: The 10% solution was made with 3% hydrogen peroxide.

 

[Subsea]

Interesting... What you are saying makes sense. Do you do any buffering at all? How wide of a range is too wide, in your opinion?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I should expound about how your choice of fast growing stony corals require alkalinity for glucose production within zoanthelia of coral and again to deposit limestone. With that choice, you are not likely to achieve high enough passive makeup of alkalinity. That is why I do not grow SPS. I have added nothing for alkalinity in 30 years, except I will shortly begin running a calcium reactor which uses co2 as carbon source. I have not tested for alkalinity in 30 years.

 

[PhishyRupert]

Longest single posts ever! lol very impressive

 

[homer1475]

To asnwer the question about sand burrowing creatures in QT.....

When I QT'ed my leopard wrasse, I bought a small bag of arogonite and just placed it in a tupperware container in my QT. During TTM I just replaced the container with a new one with new sand on each transfer. For the entire process I used like a 5lb bag.

Anyone that tells you not to QT is asking for issues. Yes fish can build up a tolerance to most diseases, but some like velvet they cannot. If you added a fish with velvet to your tank, kiss the rest of your livestock goodbye.

At the very least QTing for observation is better then nothing.

 

[SereneAquatic]

To asnwer the question about sand burrowing creatures in QT.....

When I QT'ed my leopard wrasse, I bought a small bag of arogonite and just placed it in a tupperware container in my QT. During TTM I just replaced the container with a new one with new sand on each transfer. For the entire process I used like a 5lb bag.

Anyone that tells you not to QT is asking for issues. Yes fish can build up a tolerance to most diseases, but some like velvet they cannot. If you added a fish with velvet to your tank, kiss the rest of your livestock goodbye.

At the very least QTing for observation is better then nothing.

Thank you for the idea. I like the little container of sand... that seems like a good option.

I'm taking the QT very seriously, and trying to minimize stress as much as possible for the critters. I would kick myself if I wiped out all of my fish for something stupid, especially impatience.

 

[SereneAquatic]

Begin the "Treatments"...

Begin the "Treatments"...

16 days into Quarantine, and our first sign of trouble appeared for the Flame Angel.

We did have one astraea snail and the emerald crab that died without warning, but up until yesterday the Angel seemed OK. He was finally zooming around for food when we were watching, and had acclimated to his new home.

Yesterday though, we noticed that his lips seemed swollen and rather white. There is no cottony looking stuff on him anywhere, but at the same time he did develop a weird black ... line?... on his face. It almost looks like a worm or parasite, but I cannot get a close enough look. Fish don't hold still very well, he's worse than a toddler.

His only symptoms thus far, assuming that his increased appetite over the last few days wasn't a false improvement, are the lips and face, leading me toward the 'bacterial infection' route, and/or possibly flukes. There is also a possibility of Hexamita, but he does not seem lethargic. I have not observed his feces to determine if it is white and stringy, but will be watching.

With only the symptoms he has now, I am moving in the bacterial infection and fluke direction.

Steps taken so far:

1. I set up a tank away from the snails and fire shrimp so he can be treated.

2. I added Prime to the new tank (before I knew that it could be an issue with certain medications) and did not add the carbon filter to the HOB.

3. I did NOT add pH buffer, however I may add it after his initial treatment is finished. In retrospect, it probably would have been better to use the pH buffer instead of the Prime.

4. I purchased Triple Sulfa, which I read may be a 'outdated' method of treatment, however I did not find any serious side effects and it seems like an OK place to start. I'm not a fan of medications, even on myself, so I hesitate to pull out something like Metro immediately. I do have Metro on hand in case it is needed.

5. I performed a fresh water dip on him for about 4 minutes before putting him into the Triple Sulfa + Prime tank. I had intended to go for 5 but he seemed to be becoming listless. After he was netted and put into the medicine, I looked at the bottom of the specimen container and saw things settling to the bottom, but I'm not sure exactly what it was. It almost looked like scales that he had shed... very small and clear. I'm not experienced enough to know if it was flukes or not.

There were also two other things... and they looked so similar to the frozen food that I feed him that I wondered if I had accidentally captured some uneaten frozen food in the net with him when I took him from his prior QT. The first was pale in color, almost a half inch in length and almost looked like it had a 'spine' in it. I'm not sure how something that big could be on a fish and not be seen... but it also looked way too big to have come from the frozen foods I fed them. I'm not sure if it fell off him or not.

The second thing was smaller, about 1/4 inch, and very well could have also been frozen food. It was mostly opaque, but had a reddish spot in the middle. It seemed to have 'antlers' (my husbands words lol) Again, I'm not sure if it was accidentally captured in the net from the previous tank or if it came off of the fish during the dip. I will say that I dont recall seeing particles that big floating around in the tank, or in the net.

6. I fed him 12 hours after introduction to the medicine with vitamin soaked pellets and frozen food. I also added Nori to the tank, in case he is the one that has been eating it in the other tank. (Still up for debate whether or not he ever eats it, or if snails and shrimp go after it)

This Triple Sulfa treatment is a 4 day process, so if he isn't better at the end of it, I will probably spend a few days letting him rest, feeding him vitamins, etc and then try another approach. The next most likely issue could be Hexamita, since that seems to appear more in Angels according to what I'm finding.

I wish there was a way to be more confident in diagnosis, but I can only use what I find. I'd like to think the sulfa will resolve the problem, and maybe it will... but only time will tell. If it is a bacterial infection, maybe this will catch it before it becomes critical.

One thing I am glad of, is the fact that I've taken many pictures of him throughout his quarantine. When I noticed these things yesterday, I wondered 'Was it just there before and I didn't notice?' but being able to look back at past videos and photos, I was able to confirm that it was something new.

I kind of laughed a little when I was at the LFS the other day, where I purchased him from. When I told them the Angel was sick, the man's face fell like 'Oh sht' but when I told him that it was never introduced to the tank with the clown fish, that it was still in quarantine, his face lit up like 'WHAAA?! YAY!'

Are there really that many people who just bring home a fish and put it into the display tank?

 

[Subsea]

To asnwer the question about sand burrowing creatures in QT.....

When I QT'ed my leopard wrasse, I bought a small bag of arogonite and just placed it in a tupperware container in my QT. During TTM I just replaced the container with a new one with new sand on each transfer. For the entire process I used like a 5lb bag.

Anyone that tells you not to QT is asking for issues. Yes fish can build up a tolerance to most diseases, but some like velvet they cannot. If you added a fish with velvet to your tank, kiss the rest of your livestock goodbye.

At the very least QTing for observation is better then nothing.

Homer,

I don’t recall telling anyone not to qt. I do feel qt kills more things than not, but that’s me.

In 45 years, I have never seen velvet in my many tanks. Maybe I am just lucky. It has always been my contentention that natural immune system response is more important than sterile tanks. Take HDLL. It is not a disease. It is a symptom of being in captivity, most likely diet related. Yet, too many hobbiest treat the symptom and miss the single most important things, diet & stress.

 

[homer1475]

I did not say you, it was a general statement in regards to not QTing.

I just loss every fish to ich(10 in total) as I always QT, and TTM but I ordered some new CUC and assuming it came from the snail shells as everyone was happy and healthy for 2 years prior. Unfortunately I am just not setup to QT every fish at once.

All I'm saying is it can happen, and a good QT protocol is the best defense.

 

[SereneAquatic]

To asnwer the question about sand burrowing creatures in QT.....

When I QT'ed my leopard wrasse, I bought a small bag of arogonite and just placed it in a tupperware container in my QT. During TTM I just replaced the container with a new one with new sand on each transfer. For the entire process I used like a 5lb bag.

Anyone that tells you not to QT is asking for issues. Yes fish can build up a tolerance to most diseases, but some like velvet they cannot. If you added a fish with velvet to your tank, kiss the rest of your livestock goodbye.

At the very least QTing for observation is better then nothing.

Before you head responded, I was thinking of maybe something like this... It is food safe, and I think a good size for fish to move it around. Maybe a little dish of these and then they could be sterilized and reused lol

I'm only half kidding [emoji23]

Perler Beads 22,000 Count Bead Jar Multi-Mix Colors
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ZDME7Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_nllxAbHE9SE1M

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk