A new reefer... a new tank. What could go wrong?

The Flame Angel is still living it up in his new quarantine tank with antibiotics. So far, so good, except that he's back to eating very little.

If he isn't showing any new signs of illness but persists with the whitened lips and facial lines after the meds are complete I think I may let him rest and attempt a strong feeding/vitamin regimen to make sure it isn't food related. He struggled most of the first two weeks to eat anything so perhaps this issue is nutritional? It does not look like HLLE, but maybe it is nutrition related.

As soon as the medicine dosing is done (after today) he will have a large water change and I'll be doubling down on finding something he can't resist eating. Yesterday he nibbled a tiny bit on what was put in the tank, but nothing substantial.

If anyone has any ideas on what I can use to entice him to eat, please let me know!

Right now I have ALL of the following and have tried each over the past few weeks with little success. The first two I had the entire time and he began eating the LRS with garlic, but then stopped with the medication. The others I purchased yesterday and tried to tempt him with, but to no avail.

  • LRS Fish Frenzy (frozen) alone and soaked in Garlic. I also added Seachem Vitality to it once as well, but he seemed to like it less with the vitamins on it. The clown fish reacted the same way to the vitamins.
  • New Life Spectrum marine life formula pellets. I have also soaked these in garlic and fed separately as well as 'mixed in' the LRS Fish Frenzy.
  • Alive Fusion Flakes (Spirulina & Spinach)
  • Omega One Super Veggie Kelp Flakes
  • Freeze Dried Mysis Shrimp soaked in Selcon

============================

As for the main display tank, I was finally able to turn my attention to it yesterday and do some maintenance. Another small water change and some glass scraping goes a long way.

A couple days ago I noticed small patches of cyano so we installed the powerhead we had on hand to get the water moving and it has mostly receded in a day or so. The only places it still appears is directly behind rocks where the flow from the powerhead doesn't directly reach. I was fairly confident that it was not a nutrient problem... the hair algae that made an appearance hasn't grown any more and only reached about 1/4 inch before stopping.

I have to say that the chaeto and the Kessil H380 have been absolutely amazing at keeping the nutrients in check. I am sure I 'over feed' the clown fish, because they are only willing to go about 8 inches from their home to get food that is put into the tank, and anything that drifts away ends up on the sand bed to decay. Without any CUC in the tank yet, all of those particles are breaking down and feeding the nitrogen cycle. I do not remove them (unless I happen to see a big piece floating around that I can get with the net), nor do I siphon the sand. I have deliberately tried to push the boundaries of what the Chaeto is capable of removing, and so far I haven't found the break point.

Is it weird that I'm glad there is some hair algae growing, and that the cyano has appeared? This tells me the tank is evolving. I don't want them to get out of control and take over the tank, however I'm not big on overreacting to something that is natural and even probably necessary. The tank will go through phases, and for each one, if something becomes too far out of balance, I will try to add some kind of natural predator to the ecosystem to bring it back into balance.
 

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Some additional Pics (finally)
 

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I just read through the whole thread. It sounds like you're doing great! Things will get easier once the tank matures a bit.

Sorry you're having to deal with a sick fish. It's stressful and probably not what you signed up for, but you seem to be making great efforts to cure it.

My best advice would be to buy 'bullet proof' fish this early in the game. Chalk bass and royal grammas are good examples. They may not strike your fancy at first, but once you get them home, you'll fall in love. Plus you can get more than one of them.

Your hardware store should have plastic hose clamps.

Try not to get too overwhelmed with all the advice you're getting. Opinions differ wildly in this hobby! Your best bet is to do your own research and do what makes sense to YOU.

I enjoyed your family-made vids! Got any more? It's been a pleasure following along. Good luck!
 
The Flame Angel has made a nice recovery. His color is back and he is eating better than ever. He will remain in his own tank, away from the inverts, in case he needs some additional treatment, but so far he seems well. I think I will do another freshwater dip, maybe next week, and may consider additional preventative treatments... but I'm not sold yet on the idea of just adding meds for the heck of it.

Now that the clock has reset for him, we are considering putting a Coral Beauty Angel in another QT so that the two of them can be introduced to the tank at the same time. I would like to have both in the final display, and adding them together if we're able makes the most sense.

When I first began planning out the tank inhabitants, I had them ordered from most peaceful to the semi agressives, like the Flame Angel... however I later decided that the fish that I REALLY want, are in the more aggressive genre. Why would I fill up the space and resources in the tank with fish that I dont like as much, only to find that it later stresses out the fish that I want most?

I think I would rather introduce those like the Angels first, allow them to be comfortable, happy and familiar with a dependable food schedule, and then introduce the others if I still want them. If something that I introduce later is an issue for the fish that I like most, it will have to be re-homed... not the other way around. I know this goes against advice that experienced aquarists offer... but I would rather have a few fish in the tank that I truly enjoy, rather than a bunch of them that I kind of enjoy and regret not being able to keep the angels. If this idea turns out to be a disaster and they are the last fish that ever go into this tank then I guess I will need TWO tanks. :bounce3:

The snails and fire shrimp also seem to be doing well in their tank. They shared the same tank with the Angel for about 3 weeks before the Angel showed signs of the bacterial issue we treated for, so I'm not sure now how long they need to stay in QT to make sure they dont carry it into the DT. I would like to think that if they had been carrying Ich or Velvet, it would have showed itself during that time, but I know that may not be true.

Is bacterial life cycle like that of Ich or Velvet? I have no idea but I will need to do some research.

***********************************

On a funnier note... the Flame Angel has probably earned its name. While at the LFS the other day we were joking around about putting plastic plants in the saltwater display and calling it a day (I would never hehehe... probably...) and it made me wonder if the Flame Angel would like something else to hide behind/in/around to feel more secure. It still hangs out in the PVC most of the time, at least, when we're in the room. I usually see it dart in when I come through unannounced.

So, for the heck of it I grabbed a long, leafy fake plant that is rather short and spreads out a few inches and thought I'd see what happens. It kind of looks like some macro algae I've seen.

As soon as I put it in the tank, Flame Angel was upset. It started darting around in its PVC pipe like a nutball and looking out the opposite end repeatedly at this new intruder. I have never seen any fish react so dramatically to something new in its tank (speaking of freshwater experience) and if he hadn't been so obviously scared it would have been comical, but I felt bad for him after a few minutes. He wasn't calming down so I removed the plant. He mellowed out after about 10 minutes but jeez... talk about an over reaction. This fish is more nervous than anything I've ever seen. No wonder it took him two weeks to start eating.

In honor of his paranoid behaviors, I think his name might have to be Twitch... like the fellow from South Park. :eek1:
 
Michael Hoaster said:
I just read through the whole thread. It sounds like you're doing great! Things will get easier once the tank matures a bit.

Sorry you're having to deal with a sick fish. It's stressful and probably not what you signed up for, but you seem to be making great efforts to cure it.

My best advice would be to buy 'bullet proof' fish this early in the game. Chalk bass and royal grammas are good examples. They may not strike your fancy at first, but once you get them home, you'll fall in love. Plus you can get more than one of them.

Your hardware store should have plastic hose clamps.

Try not to get too overwhelmed with all the advice you're getting. Opinions differ wildly in this hobby! Your best bet is to do your own research and do what makes sense to YOU.

I enjoyed your family-made vids! Got any more? It's been a pleasure following along. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael! I appreciate the vote of confidence... sometimes I'm not sure if I'm on the right track at all lol. I'll look for the hose clamps on my next run. I didn't realize that I'd be spending as much time at Lowe's as I do the LFS when I started this hobby. :p

The videos will continue coming as we get more footage. With the tank up and running it's a lot of the same... Feed. Top Off. Change Water. Test Parameters. Write in Log. Feed. Top Off. Change Water. Test. Write. Feed....

Actually... that is a great idea for the next video. I'll use Pink Floyd's 'Money' for the intro and do a montage of those things, over and over again. :lol: I'm glad you liked them. It's fun to keep a kind of visual diary of what we're doing so we can look back on it some day.
 
I am noticing an odd thing with the main display tank. Since the very first time I started testing alkalinity (Hannah Checker), it has been on a downward slide. Every single test results in a lower number.

I added some pH buffer twice, which also says it will raise dkH by 1 point, but it had no real effect. In the thread I posted about this, everyone is pointing to Mg as the problem... if the Mg is depleted, then the dkH will never stay up.

I know I haven't done a bunch of water changes on this tank... but can two clown fish really be using up that much Mg? My gut tells me no. There is literally nothing else in this tank aside from a little hair algae and small spots of cyano.

So what gives?

A weird thought occurred to me last night as I pondered this: What if the rocks are leeching something into the water the binds with Mg? A potential culprit in rock could be perhaps, Sulphur? These rocks aren't typical reef rocks, they are mostly Texas Holey Rock I think. The make-up of those rocks is said to be Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), and it's used in a lot of cichlid tanks, but who knows.

Maybe Magnesium Phosphate... but that is a bit more complex molecule I think, in a couple different forms...

I'm going to pull out the Mg test and see where it's at, but I suspect it is low like everyone says. Surely the clown fish aren't depleting it that fast.
 
Some fish just name themselves I guess.

We brought the coral beauty angel home on Tuesday and put him in his own QT so he can go in at the same time as the flame angel. So far so good.

Apparently, in my sleep last night, I woke my husband up with an urgent question. "What is the new fish's name?!" (It may have also been "What's the new name for the fish" ...?)

I actually did come awake enough after asking him about 3 times for me to laugh histerically when he woke up this morning saying "I had the strangest dream last night..." [emoji38]

After we laughed about it for a while, he said "The new fish's name is Midnight."

So there you have it, problem solved LOL [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
That's great! I like to name my fish too. It's fun! I usually live with them for awhile and their personality points to a good one.
 
Well, unfortunately the Coral Beauty did not make it. Immediately after I typed my last post, I went downstairs to find that he hadn't made it. Maybe that's why I was asking what the NEW fish name was. Subliminal knowledge? :eek1: J/K

It makes me sad, because it makes me wonder if I had left him to acclimate longer at the store before bringing him home if he would have been better able to adjust. I'm not sure that's the case, because 1 of the 3 that the store got in that day was already dead 30 minutes after he came out of the bag, we found it when I arrived. Perhaps this group had been mishandled somewhere along the way... but still.

Since he did not make it through we re-evaluated once more and decided that since we were already going to be pushing our luck by putting two angels into the DT... why not go for 3? I've read that it can be done if they are all introduced at about the same time, but that they may become more aggressive with age. It may be a bad idea, but we're going to try it. The dwarf angels are my favorite fish, maybe along with the Jawfish, so like I said before... I'm willing to NOT get other fish down the road to have the ones I really want.

I ended up ordering another Coral Beauty and a Lemon Peel angel from Live Aquaria. The Lemon Peel was through Divers Den, but they were sold out of the Coral Beauty in DD so they'll both be in separate QT's when they arrive.

In order to prep for the newcomers arrival, we finally moved the group in QT to the DT. It's been 5 weeks and there have been no signs of illness other than the brief treatment for the Flame Angel, who has been doing well since. I'm not entirely sure he WAS sick, but he did seem to pep up a little afterwards.

We wanted to put the Flame Angel in a little early because, I swear, that fish is so timid that he needs all the head start he can get. We put him in and he started checking out his new home pretty quickly. The funny part is that he wandered into the little 'den' that the clown fish call their home and they were a little upset. The female in particular would turn around and swish her tail at him, and he would drift back out of the den and swim around some more. A couple of times I gently guided him back out of there so they wouldn't try to go after him... but he would go back in after a few minutes.

The funniest part, is that the clown fish seem to have adopted him now. The Flame Angel just went in repeatedly, almost timidly like "Hey... guys? Can I hang out with you? I'm scared..." and they were finally like "Uh... Ok, I guess. As long as you... well sure, yeah, get in here real close, we'll snuggle. You ... watch out the top and we'll watch out the bottom."

:love1:

I swear though, if the next two fish try to get behind that damn rock where we can't see them... that rock is coming out. :lmao: We were bemused when the clownfish decided to take that area, out of the entire tank, and rarely come out, but that's their nature and we figured it would be a good spot for them. But seriously? The Flame Angel is bunking up in there too? I'm not sure how many more fish can fit in that hole.

:hmm5:
 
Ugh! Those pictures break my heart...

The last few weeks have been instructional... pivotal, even.

1. The cyano has receded quite a bit. A few spots of brown still remain but it seems like it's on its way out. It looks as if the coralline algae is finally taking hold in some places, as well as what I think was cotton candy algae?!? Only one small puff ball of something different from everything else in the tank that I scraped away.

2. The first "Ugh"... I tried adding pods from Algae Barn to the sump, but the mailman left them stuffed in the mailbox and we didn't know that they were out in the cold all night. In the morning I saw the email from AB and thought "Oh Crap." Sure enough, most of them were dead. Algae Barn is nice enough to replace them for us, even though it was likely our own fault for not bringing them inside. We'll be vigilant in checking the mailbox next time. :thumbdown

3. Here is where the second "Ugh" comes in... the Coral Beauty from Live Aquaria lasted only 24 hours before it died. We were careful in acclimation... had the salinity matched up front (and tested it again when he arrived), and he floated in his bag for about 40 mins while I acclimated the Lemon Peel angel, so temp was good. Even with those in check, I did a few half cups of water exchange once the bag opened, only for a few minutes, before putting him in the tank. He refused to eat and was gone a day later. :( We knew the next day that he wasn't going to make it, he had started swimming strangely and sitting on the bottom of the tank. It was sad to watch.

4. Now for the real "Ugh", and this one is more heartbreaking than the rest. The Flame Angel died last night. That's right. The little fellow we've been nursing since December finally gave in. He seemed to do better for a bit once he made it into the big tank, but he still refused to eat. The poor thing was just wasting away and we didn't know what to do about it. I knew when I saw him last night that he probably wasn't going to make it, after all this time. I really don't know what we could have done differently. It makes me second guess everything we did in QT. He had no obvious signs of illness, only a strong refusal to eat. Even the Sulpha treatment we did for him seemed rather unnecessary... his mouth was pale, but not 'fuzzy' like a bacterial issue. I was hesitant to do any heavier medications because his appetite was already so poor. *sigh* I have read recently that a lot of Flame Angels seem to be having this kind of issue after shipping, and if so that makes me angry. If wholesalers are doing something to make these fish essentially starve to death after being sold, they need to stop. It was so sad to watch him, week by week, occasionally... OCCASIONALLY eating some tiny morsel... but most often not. I used to tell my husband that he was 'faking' eating because the pieces were so small I couldn't see them. (Husband could). UGH! I like that little guy. It wasn't until the Lemon Peel arrived that I could see by comparison how weak he really was. The only other fish we have had were the clown fish, and we thought the angel was just really calm... but watching the Lemon made it obvious that the Flame was not as well off, by a long shot.

5. Speaking of the Lemon... this guy is a beast. Day 1 he was eating aggressively and super active in the QT. There wasn't anything I would put in the tank for him to eat that he wouldn't take, and he never left anything at all on the bottom of the tank as leftovers. Nori, Kelp, Spirolina/Spinach, LRS Fish Frenzy, Pellets... you name it, he eats it. Quickly. It was such a stark comparison to how the Flame Angel ever was that it was astonishing. This is the only fish we've ordered from Divers Den, and I dont know if all their fish are in such good health, but wow... He's beautiful, robust, energetic and STRONG. I knew that he could never go in the tank with the Flame Angel, like I had originally hoped. He was much bigger and much more aggressive, so that idea went out the window. We were willing to try for a minute and see what happened, but needed a backup plan in case it was bad (which I fully expected after seeing their differences in temperament).

After the second Coral Beauty died we decided to do something different about our quarantine situation, as well as create a backup plan for the angels. The constant water changes, top offs twice a day and inability to keep the tank clean was already irritating, but the deaths of the two CB's convinced me that this is not a good situation for these fish. They are supposed to be algae grazers, and there was no way to do that effectively in QT, and even though I did large water changes often, I still worried about ammonia spikes. We ended up buying ANOTHER Red Sea tank, a Nano Max, to use as long term QT. The tank cycled rather quickly with a little clown fish and a bottle of Dr Tims Nitrifying Bacteria, as well as some live rock from the sump of the main DT. It had a decent amount of hair algae on it which I figured the Lemon would appreciate when he migrated into his new long term quarantine.

When the tank was ready, we moved Lemon Peel into the Nano with the little clown fish (which was already much bigger than the 10 gallon tank he had been in). He hid behind a rock for about 10 minutes, and then decided things were cool and started checking everything out. Within a few minutes he was picking hair algae off the rock. This guy is fearless! (Except with the magnet cleaner lol) The first time I fed the tank he chased the clown fish away for a second, but once he realized that there's plenty for all he was fine and we haven't seen any aggression issues with him bothering the clown anymore.

This will be his home for a while. I dont want to add any more fish to either tank for at least 6 weeks. I need to monitor the clown fish to make sure that there wasn't something more going on with the Flame Angel, but I really dont think there was anything more than starvation happening (which is tragic enough). All the fish are happy at the moment, so we're going to wait, maybe get the pods into the sump, and keep working on perfecting the water chemistry.

I know that the Lemon Peel is going to dominate the main tank once he's in it, so when we add new fish, he'll probably have to be swapped into the Nano temporarily to give the new fish a chance to settle in before we bring him back over. We found that the net is a bad idea for him, since his fins get stuck, so we'll need something more like a container to do transfers with him. The small clown fish will probably live in the QT permanently, unless we decide to sell him back to the LFS at some point. That does put him at risk when a new fish arrives... but I honestly may buy everything from DD going forward. That isn't a 100% guarantee, but it's better than nothing, and perhaps having him in the tank will help new fish acclimate sooner. He's definitely a "dither fish", not a hider.

I wonder if the bonded clowns in the main tank will revert to hiding behind their rock all day. The Flame Angel had convinced them that it was OK to come out, and they were hanging out in more area than they had prior to his arrival.

This is hard. It's hard to know what the right decision is sometimes. It's hard to watch a fish suffer and not be able to help it. But, it's also rewarding. Little achievements of the fish make me happy for them... "Yay! You came out from behind the rock! Good job!" and "Yay! You found the Nori clip!" :lmao:

I know I'm in this for the long haul, and I hope I learn fast enough to not leave a trail of casualties in my wake. :hmm2:
 
The new Nano tank has been a blessing. I sleep easier knowing that the salinity is stable, the tank is not toxic from ammonia and the environment is suitable for its inhabitants. I wish we would have just done it up front. The constant water mixing, changes, top offs, cleaning, etc made it almost too difficult to maintain. We both work full time jobs, and the QTs were feeling like yet another.

Doing it this way is much easier, and the fish are much happier. I don't feel like every day was a week in and of itself... I was seriously losing track of time from being so busy at it. There is no rush now, to make sure they get into the main display. I can monitor until the cows come home.

If we need a hospital tank for treatment, lord knows we have multiple now... But I still don't want to treat where it isn't necessary. If the nano tank crashes and has to sit fallow, it wouldn't be the end of the world. The fish are easier to catch in this tank too.

I'm so glad we took that step!

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The Lemon Peel angel finally has a name. We strongly considered 'sh*thead' but even though he is feisty, he is adorable. We have decided to call him Flash. Flash is energetic, hungry and really funny.

His personality is a hilarious mixture of caution, curiosity, confidence and sassyness.

Whenever he encounters something new, he finds a spot to observe. He doesn't exactly hide unless the magnet cleaner starts moving around, but he finds an out of the way place to watch. He is being safe, but not in a Chicken Little way.

After he observes, his curiosities get the better of him and he has to investigate. A quick lap around the tank where he can see from all angles is in order first, then closer evaluation. Once he knows that, say, the sand rake isn't going to chase him, he gets closer to find out if it's edible and if he should be chasing it instead.

If it's edible, and it fits in his mouth, he eats it. He isn't going to be a reef fish. I never see scraps of any thing go to waste. Penelope, the clown fish "QT welcoming committee", eats whatever he doesn't go after.

Once Flash found out he couldn't eat the sand rake he decided it shouldn't be in his tank, so he turned around and started wacking it with his tail and trying to push it into the corner.

Kind of a sh*thead, but hilarious to interact with.

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I have a 20 long set up as a permanent observation/quarantine tank. If I have to treat in the tank I can or I can tear it down and clean if needed. It's hooked up to the Apex which makes monitoring so much easier.

I like reading new tank builds, especially first tank ones. I just drained and cleaned my main tank after some equipment broke and a crash took out most of the tank so I'm gearing up to restock and go in a new direction and I've gotta say it's fun to set up a tank basically from scratch again.

Despite your troubles it looks like you're up to an excellent start. This is definitely to your credit since you did so much research and planning to get where you are now.


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Sorry to hear about your coral Beauty & flame angel. Me personally try not purchase stuff online or LFS as much especially during the winter season.
 
JUNBUG361 said:
Sorry to hear about your coral Beauty & flame angel. Me personally try not purchase stuff online or LFS as much especially during the winter season.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I didn't realize that there was a seasonal difference. Is there a reason why?

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