A year of random mini-crashes..cant figure it out, about to give up.
- Thread starter EnderG60
- Start date
Couple thoughts I had while reading:
1) Did you at any point stir up the sand during that period? If so it's possible you dumped toxic gasses that build up in the sand bend into the tank which would cause massive die off.
2) Have you considered building a simple turf scrubber to try and remove excess nutrients. As stated the test may very well show 0 simply because the nutrients are bound up in the algae and the algae is self maintaining. An ATS should eliminate that possibility.
3) Any possibility someone besides you used chemicals around the tank? I for instance I once caught some house cleaners we hired to do some cleaning prior to a party about to try and clean my aquarium with windex and woodcleaner. Is that a possibility?
I doubt it's stray current simply because of the 'cycles' you are going through. Stray current would be a constant issue I would think. I guess its possible current, or something else, could be killing your animals, thereby causing a nutrient spike, thereby causing a die off period... hard to say.
I had similar problems to yours after having moved my tank. It turned out I didn't know better and tried to reuse the same sand after the move, this was my issue. I had to siphon out all of the sand and replace it with brand new live sand and the problems ceased completely at that point. Never had a problem since. You could theoretically get the same result from stirring up the sand, which is why I asked.
1) Did you at any point stir up the sand during that period? If so it's possible you dumped toxic gasses that build up in the sand bend into the tank which would cause massive die off.
2) Have you considered building a simple turf scrubber to try and remove excess nutrients. As stated the test may very well show 0 simply because the nutrients are bound up in the algae and the algae is self maintaining. An ATS should eliminate that possibility.
3) Any possibility someone besides you used chemicals around the tank? I for instance I once caught some house cleaners we hired to do some cleaning prior to a party about to try and clean my aquarium with windex and woodcleaner. Is that a possibility?
I doubt it's stray current simply because of the 'cycles' you are going through. Stray current would be a constant issue I would think. I guess its possible current, or something else, could be killing your animals, thereby causing a nutrient spike, thereby causing a die off period... hard to say.
I had similar problems to yours after having moved my tank. It turned out I didn't know better and tried to reuse the same sand after the move, this was my issue. I had to siphon out all of the sand and replace it with brand new live sand and the problems ceased completely at that point. Never had a problem since. You could theoretically get the same result from stirring up the sand, which is why I asked.
After the ich outbreak I did vaccume the top 1" of sand(its only 2" thick all over), and since then added another 1" or so on top of it.
Did your problems occur like mine where it would reoccur every few months? I have no problem removing all the sand and cleaning it, but it just doesnt seem to fit in my mind.
Did your problems occur like mine where it would reoccur every few months? I have no problem removing all the sand and cleaning it, but it just doesnt seem to fit in my mind.
I did not have the tank size or water volume you have (only 75g on that tank) nor the population. It pretty much wiped out everything but my most hardy fish and coral (few polyps basically are left) over the period of a month. I had a major outbreak of cyano and green hair algae and no amount of cleaning would cure it. Replacing the sand fixed the problem immediately (combined with a large water change and thorough scrubbing and cleaning of the live rock). The algae never came back (to this day) and I have not lost a single other animal since (well a cowrie got stuck and died, but unrelated).
So no, but that could likely be attributed to your much great water volume and a less complete die off (I think in stirring the sand up and transporting I basically totally killed it). The cycles may be caused by the partial die off you may have caused and your much greater degree of maintenance and filtration then I have. So for instance, you have an event, but your maintenance routine slows its spread down, it eventually reaches a zenith and crashes, you react and clear out the die off and pollution, the decreased bio load combined with your water change and maintenance keep the levels under the die off limit for a few months, repeat. Just speculation though.
You could theoretically remove the sand all together and see what happens before you bother to replace it. When I did I removed the old sand, put in the new sand, then did a 50% water change, and that was it.
I am in the process of replacing this tank with a much larger tank/system, but to this day it's very stable.
Vinny Kreyling
Premium Member
There is a thread here that i have not read but puts a "light on in my head".
It refers to pond foam in aquariums,- like how many tanks still running foam for more than 2 yrs????
Perhaps it could shed some information, maybe, I don't know, but I would look for it and read it.
It refers to pond foam in aquariums,- like how many tanks still running foam for more than 2 yrs????
Perhaps it could shed some information, maybe, I don't know, but I would look for it and read it.
I've been chasing similar problems for 6-8 months. I suspected everything from baterial diseases to contaminated water. In the end it was as simple as my salinity was too high. My refractometer had drifted out of calibration and along with it went my salinity. A good friend checked with his meter and my SG was 1.035. I'm not saying this is your problem but it's something to look into.
freetareef
New member
did you test for copper?
fishcraze_1
Member
i had a huge green cap and orange monti, die on me when i vacuumed sand
thats the last time i disturbed sand bed
and have not had any problems since
might have added to your problems if this alone was not the issue
thats the last time i disturbed sand bed
and have not had any problems since
might have added to your problems if this alone was not the issue
yeah thats my thread trying to see if anyone had similar issues, there is a link to this thread in it.
I dont do any carbon dosing, and by everyones terms I over feed a lot and for the past 3 crashes I have not had any major change in fish load.
Ill double check that ASAP
no copper has ever or will ever be anywhere near this tank.
"Copper tubing remains the most widely used home plumbing material among homebuilders and homeowners. Professional installation or some plumbing knowledge is usually needed, as the use of soldering compounds or compression fittings is necessary to join the various sections of pipe.
In situations where the pH of the water is below 6.5, there is the potential for copper to leach from the pipe into drinking water above allowable levels."
There is a very good chance your home has copper piping for drinking water, most do. The potential for a very slow but deadly build up of copper in a reef tank is very real from copper leaching. What is considered the EPA allowable safe drinking level is 1.3 PPM (parts per million), but for a reef tank it is measured in PPB (parts per billion), a thousand times less.
Often the electrical system in a home is often grounded to copper piping. Stray currents or shorts can easily cause galvanic action and leach copper ions into your water. Also copper buried in the ground can see stray ground currents that cause the copper pipes to corrode. A corroding copper pipe is leaching copper into your drinking water and the water you may well be using for the reef tank.
In one area in Florida that I am familiar with the homes, they have so much natural stray ground current, that their waste water even exceeds the allowable EPA limit for copper in the waste going to waste treatment plant. It is due to the copper leaching inside the homes buried copper water system. A sure killer for a reef tank.
Something worth considering as an issue and maybe your problem.
I filter all my RO water through copper removal media because of this concern.
I am going to post this as a new topic. I think it is important information to realize and consider if you are in the hobby.
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There is no copper tubing anywhere near the tank, its all on the opposite side of the house and the water piping run to the fish room is all CPVC.
plus if copper was anywhere near high enough to be killing corals, pretty sure all my snails, shrimp and stars would be dead.
Also there is zero wiring that is exposed anywhere near the tank.
the only way copper could get in this system is if it was in the air.
EDIT: also pretty sure if any copper was getting past my RODI, I would be seeing problems in the other tanks I maintain which regularly get water changes from the same water I use in the tank.
plus if copper was anywhere near high enough to be killing corals, pretty sure all my snails, shrimp and stars would be dead.
Also there is zero wiring that is exposed anywhere near the tank.
the only way copper could get in this system is if it was in the air.
EDIT: also pretty sure if any copper was getting past my RODI, I would be seeing problems in the other tanks I maintain which regularly get water changes from the same water I use in the tank.
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Isocyanate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isocyanate
---This foam has a lot of environmental cautions when it's being installed. One thing that occurs to me very strongly is that what is safe in pond (fresh) water is not necessarily safe in salt water, which aggressively dissolves things. For instance: salt water does not readily dissolve calcium carbonate: freshwater does, which is why you dissolve kalk in freshwater before adding it to your tank; BUT freshwater does not readily dissolve copper; saltwater definitely does. What is made for one type of water does not necessarily work safely in the other.
I know that's not good news, but I think it's one really strong possibility. Over time, whatever dissolves out is going to concentrate via evaporation. If this should be the case, the only remedy short of a re-do I can think of is a succession of massive water changes. 40%, then 30%, 30% a few days apart. Try this scenario: The ich was in your tank to start with, got in somehow, but never succeeded well, until an increasingly bad chemical situation lowered natural body slime, and then everything became vulnerable to the parasite. Your corals, meanwhile, were also losing their protective slime, and were increasingly light sensitive, hence the browning, and eventual rtn.
WHen faced with a really bizarre problem, I tend to ask myself "What's unusual here?" and what's unusual is the use of this foam in hot (relative to freshwater) water (a factor in chemical breakdown), under intense coral lighting, light being another factor that can cause many materials to break down, under salt water (another breakdown factor). That is what blinks 'warning' when I analyze the setup and the 'negative' on more common causes.
---This foam has a lot of environmental cautions when it's being installed. One thing that occurs to me very strongly is that what is safe in pond (fresh) water is not necessarily safe in salt water, which aggressively dissolves things. For instance: salt water does not readily dissolve calcium carbonate: freshwater does, which is why you dissolve kalk in freshwater before adding it to your tank; BUT freshwater does not readily dissolve copper; saltwater definitely does. What is made for one type of water does not necessarily work safely in the other.
I know that's not good news, but I think it's one really strong possibility. Over time, whatever dissolves out is going to concentrate via evaporation. If this should be the case, the only remedy short of a re-do I can think of is a succession of massive water changes. 40%, then 30%, 30% a few days apart. Try this scenario: The ich was in your tank to start with, got in somehow, but never succeeded well, until an increasingly bad chemical situation lowered natural body slime, and then everything became vulnerable to the parasite. Your corals, meanwhile, were also losing their protective slime, and were increasingly light sensitive, hence the browning, and eventual rtn.
WHen faced with a really bizarre problem, I tend to ask myself "What's unusual here?" and what's unusual is the use of this foam in hot (relative to freshwater) water (a factor in chemical breakdown), under intense coral lighting, light being another factor that can cause many materials to break down, under salt water (another breakdown factor). That is what blinks 'warning' when I analyze the setup and the 'negative' on more common causes.
Well thats what I was thinking, and why I made another thread specifically asking who had pond foam in their tank for more then 2 years.
From what Ive read there so far and the fact that the foam is not actually breaking down at all, I dont think that is the case. The whole reason I went with that pond foam was because of how many people I saw using it(both coated and not) who were having great results even years after.
Again, Im open to anything but I have yet to hear of one person with a similar problem to mine who has the black foam.
From what Ive read there so far and the fact that the foam is not actually breaking down at all, I dont think that is the case. The whole reason I went with that pond foam was because of how many people I saw using it(both coated and not) who were having great results even years after.
Again, Im open to anything but I have yet to hear of one person with a similar problem to mine who has the black foam.
Well thats what I was thinking, and why I made another thread specifically asking who had pond foam in their tank for more then 2 years.
From what Ive read there so far and the fact that the foam is not actually breaking down at all, I dont think that is the case. The whole reason I went with that pond foam was because of how many people I saw using it(both coated and not) who were having great results even years after.
Again, Im open to anything but I have yet to hear of one person with a similar problem to mine who has the black foam.
From what Ive read there so far and the fact that the foam is not actually breaking down at all, I dont think that is the case. The whole reason I went with that pond foam was because of how many people I saw using it(both coated and not) who were having great results even years after.
Again, Im open to anything but I have yet to hear of one person with a similar problem to mine who has the black foam.
And honestly, with your maintenance routine, I can't see it concentrating in that manner. I mean if you were doing 15% water changes once a month or something, but your routine is far beyond most peoples.
This is why we change water regularly, because it removes concentrated pollutants before they can build up to unsafe levels. We could theoretically dose all the additives into the tank (like calcium) if we needed to, but we do water changes instead because it solves two problems with one solution.
My understanding of the pond foam is that it is inert once dry. If temperature was an issue, people in warm areas would not be able to have ponds because the temperature in a small pond when it is 115 degrees outside easily gets up to 80 degrees. Some people even heat their ponds in cold weather environments.
If it was salt water we would see breakdown in the foam which we only seem to see in non coated, non-pond foams. From everything i have read the non black foam breaks down from UV light because it is not designed for it. Pond foam is specifically designed for UV and so does not break down. I coated mine anyway, just to be safe, and for looks. I have yet to read of anyone who used the black pond foam and has seen any visible break down even after years.
I just highly doubt it is your issue.
pscott99
New member
Since you have put so much effort and experience into this great hobby why not spend a little money and have your water tested by a professional water testing laboratory. (google). Maybe they can id a trace element or bio element that is out of wack thus pointing more to the problem.
The cycle almost sounds like you over clean to the point of removing any nutrients for coral growth, never getting the tank into balance.
The cycle almost sounds like you over clean to the point of removing any nutrients for coral growth, never getting the tank into balance.
freetareef
New member
i have seen pics of pond foam after it comes out of a reef tank...it does breakdown a bit and it is full of pods and worms all burrowing around in it.....
SoLiD
-=Snake=-
As always, a very clear and concise explanation Sk8r. Thank-You for your input and the way you explain things to us normal people.
