Achilles Tang Primer

[blennielove]

Hi Frank,
What you stated is indeed the problem!
It is a huge system and they introduce new fish I think twice a week. I was thinking that the treatments at the LFS is "good" to a point, but I know it is by no means a "quarantine" or real "treatment". The only thing that I can really count on is that the fish is indeed eating and appears to be well acclimated to aquarium life and people.
I have been visiting the little guy every two days. One purpose is to be familiar with how many shipments they are getting in and how the fishes in the system are doing. Another reason is so that I can personally feed it 15-20 pellets each time and watch his behavior for flashing, twitching, color, and seeing if he is indeed gaining some weight with the food that I "see" him eat. I am still waiting to see him poop...I guess I feel a little funny squatting in front of the tank and just staring at him...I don't think he will poop with someone watching...:eek2:
I guess, from your thoughts, I will be doing the whole treatment again once he gets home.
With your experience, would you do the hypo or the cupramine with the Achilles?
I was leaning towards hypo with this fish because my DT is in hypo and will be in hypo till the end of February.
I know that hypo does not treat for velvet, but if he has velvet, wouldn't it show up by now?
My LFS is really good and the owner has become a good friend. I am very lucky.
Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[shaka]

blennielove- You must have one of the rare PBTs that's so easygoing. Mine was very aggressive to every new fish. I sold him because things didn't go as planned when I bought an Achilles from LiveAquaria. My intention was to have both tangs in the same tank (150 gallon), but I decided not to risk it in the end. They never coexisted in the same tank together. I had separated the PBT into a 50 gallon tank and put the Achilles (after a 5 week quarantine period) into the 150 gallon DT. I eventually sold the Achilles as well because he was becoming very aggressive with my Regal Angel. In the end, I had the PBT for 5 years and the Achilles for 1 year before I sold both. I never treated either tang for Ich, I just quarantine all fish initially for 4-5 weeks to get them feeding and in good health before moving them into DT.

 

[piusma]

If I were you, I'd bag it up and take it home right away. Remember the longer this fish stay in your lfs, the higher the risk for cross contamination. It's not often you will find a small size achillies that's already feeding pellets.

I was very lucky to stumble on one that was eating frozen. I took him home instantly but still had some challenges during QT. First it was the feeding habits. Though it was eating mysis, it was picky about its size and I had to watch how much food to put into the tank to keep water quality good.

Then it was his flashing that concerned me. It was scratching itself regularly (I knew about its flashing before I bought it. But it had no ick and was just right under 4", as good as a specimen I've ever expected) Gave it 2 days to settle in, still had no ick, and once it was back in track eating, I started the cupramne treatment. I went extra slow in raising the copper level, took 5 days instead of 2. Followed by a prazi treatment.

The flashing continued which forced me to repeat my copper treatment. It took about 7 weeks before I introduced it to the DT. Though it was eating in the QT, it was never eating aggressively. It lost 15% of body weight approx. But gained it back quickly. It didn't have much trouble settling but had constant argument with my regal tang which was 2" bigger. I had to take my regal tang out and it had since been the happy ruler of my tank.

it grew about an inch in the last 3 months and has no sign of parasites and started to grew fat like all my other fish.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Hi Frank,
What you stated is indeed the problem!
It is a huge system and they introduce new fish I think twice a week.

I guess, from your thoughts, I will be doing the whole treatment again once he gets home. With your experience, would you do the hypo or the cupramine with the Achilles? I know that hypo does not treat for velvet, but if he has velvet, wouldn't it show up by now?

Given the constant introduction of additional fish, I would do a full quarantine with PraziPro and Cupramine. I prefer Cupramine to hypo as Cupramine gets more varieties of parasites. You don't know whether the Achilles picked up something from the last shipment of fish to the lfs. Plus, the Achilles has proven to be ok with Cupramine. I ramp Cupramine up over 4 days (1/3 on days one, three and four) rather than the 48 hours described in the instructions on the bottle. I treat at .35ppm in the absence of obvious parasitic infection.

I agree with piusma, I would just take the fish home now and get it out of the lfs tanks and the exposure to whatever might be coming in. You know it is eating, acclimated to aquarium life, and there is no visible sign of disease.

 

[blennielove]

Thanks Everyone!
So exciting and scared at the same time!
I will get my QT ready for Cupramine then. It is a fully cycled tank with all the critters, cheato, and a coral that you normally find in a feef tank. I will start pulling them out and do bare bottom with PVC for privacy.
The owner is set to have me pick him up this Thursday but I'll go get him as soon as the QT is ready. I am thinking that I may need to go pick up another 55 gallon tank as my QT is a 20 long right now.
This will be my second Achilles, my first was a gorgeous one at 7 or 8 inches, but he never ate a thing. I took him back to the LFS after 10 days or so and he died there with crypt plus malnutrition I think.

 

[piusma]

Don't add cupramine to your QT until you see it adjusted to your tank. Try feeding it and get it to eat aggressively before introducing any chemical unless necessary.

 

[blennielove]

Yes. It appears that the trick is to get them to eat well.
It also seems like everyone is using Cupramine and the Achilles tolerate well. I was hoping to avoid it and go the hyposalinity route but with the overwhelming census here...
Now with Cupramine, it has to be done in a bare tank right?

 

[piusma]

The copper will kill inverts, pods, worms, filter feeders etc And cause a die off. So it is best to not put a live rock in there or you'll need to watch your water param. I do water changes with new salt water with ther right amount of cupramine added to it during the treatment. My #1 priority is to maintain good water quality as i keep my fish in there for an extended period. I vaccum the tank and do 20-30% water changes twice a week.

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

Yes. It appears that the trick is to get them to eat well.
It also seems like everyone is using Cupramine and the Achilles tolerate well. I was hoping to avoid it and go the hyposalinity route but with the overwhelming census here...
Now with Cupramine, it has to be done in a bare tank right?

A basically bare tank (with only pvc, heater, powerhead) is right. Certain items such as rock and carbon soak up the copper, so you don't want them in there and copper will kill inverts.

Your 20L should be fine if the fish is no more than 3-4" or so, which I assume is the case as you described it as a baby.

If your QT is fully cycled, you shouldn't have to do many water changes. I use DT water when I do water changes in my QT to get the fish acclimated to the water they will live in, but others use freshly made-up saltwater.

Just take it slowly and keep us up to date on how it goes.

 

[blennielove]

Thank you all for your insight and expertise!
I am ordering the Cupramine tonight and the copper level test thing. It will be the first time I use Cupramine so a little nervous here but I will keep reading and asking questions. I will be clearing out my QT of all "organic" matter and checking parameters to make sure that all is "stable" then Jump into the Achilles Tang world I go...

 

[fishflorist]

can Melafix used in the reef aquarium ? is it totally safe for corals ?
and especially, does it work ?

 

[Bambi99]

Hi All,

Just bought 2 X 5" Archilles Tang on Saturday at US$310 each.......They are extremely rich in coloration and looks good in health.........

Just cycled my tank for 4 weeks.........and put in these 2 ATs into the DT after Acclimate them in a small holding box.........

At first, they seem to be swimming in a way trying to adapt to the new water environment........after a while it seems okie..........the slightly smaller one (more pretty) will occasionally chase the bigger one but no biting involved so far.......

I have been pondering about QT before but I think the risks of QT them in a much small tank outweighs higher than the ICH problem.........( I have been thru lotsa of ich and this time round, I reset the whole system with 4 weeks Cycling and upgrade of equipment)..........

The fishes started pecking on the live rocks abit........no interest in Mysis, pellets and Red Bamboo so far.........praying that they wil eat soon.........I should not be praying but I should go get more variety of food for them to feed on...........

They will to be swimming well but both do flash abit against the live sand (well, I supposed ICH is coming).......Copper kits or hyposalinity is on standby........

One thing I do note is that when the smaller one chase after the bigger one, the bigger one will show blue eyes instead of the "chaser"........Both have no stress though and breathing normally.........

Tank Specs :

5ft XC 2.5ft X 2.5ft = 234G
ATB Skimmer
Vortech MP40S Wavemaker
Bio Rings in Sump
FR with NP BioPellets
FR with Phosphate Media (bought RowaPhos but have not changed media yet)
Algae Scrubber (Best Invesment to Date)
2 X Metal Halides (250w ea)
Actinic T5s (2 X purple & 2 X Blue)
3 Blue LEDs

Tank Parameters :
SG : 1.025
Phosphate : 0ppm
Ammonia : 0
Nitries : 0
Nitrates : 0
PH : 8.6
KH : 11
Calcium : 340 (380 after dosing)
Magnesium : 1030 (1150 after dosing)

One thing I am curious is after cycling the tank, PH is 8.8 and KH is 12........I did 25% water change to bring it to the above specs..........

 

[gig]

you just cycled the tank and put X2 Achilles in? seems like a bad idea IMO....I would only put these in an established tank. I also think your tank is too small for 2 of these, let alone 1...I had 1 in my 180, which is a 6ft tank and that felt small to me for a 3-4" AT.

 

[nonimmigrant]

Wow that is a monster is it just me or does he look bigger than your tank?

LOL ... rapidly approaching that stage for sure, but the angle made him look bigger than it is relative to the tank. Part of the reason that we're going on a massive tank re-build is because of the Achilles.

 

[nonimmigrant]

Any updates on everyone's Achilles?
I have a little baby one on hold at the LFS right now. I was there just browsing for fishes to restock my tank and the shop owner always lets me feed his fish with pellets...long story short, I was completely surprised when I saw this tiny, off colored, what? an Achilles tang gobbling down the NL Spectrum pellets like a gold fish! I came home and read the 44 pages, went back to the store about three more times, checking him out and feeding him myself. After a week of watching, I called the LFS owner and have him placed on hold. They are treating with Cupramine, Prazipro currently and the owner agreed to hold him for a whole two weeks so that he can complete the whole treatment.
The little guy has consistently eaten the pellets without fail, his colors are coming back, still a little skinny but I've never seen an Achilles come up to eat like that.
I still have one week to go but I'm planning my QT and this is what I'm thinking:
Have LFS do a formaldehyde bath for 30 minutes before coming home. Bring him home, QT is a 20 Long "reef like" setting. Make sure he continues to eat for a couple of days, if all's well, start Prazipro x 1, then start lowering salinity slowly taking 1 week for a true hypo at 1.008 for 4 weeks, after which if all is well, treat with second Prazipro which will take another week. If all is well, do a second 30 minute formaldehyde bath, and into the HYPO DT!
What do you experts think?

My DT is a 72x24x30 with 7" Emperor, 5" Powder Blue Tang, pair of clowns, and a 4" Sleeper banded goby.
My Powder Blue is a darling, he had two other tang friends before they died (a 5" Kole tang and 9" Atlantic Blue Tang), he was never aggressive with any of them and in the beginning, he was the largest of the three so...I'm less worried about him as the Achilles is so much smaller.

I second the point that you should never trust that a LFS does adequate QT. All of my AT's (I have 4) have been thru QT dosed with Cupramine. I honestly would not recommend anything else. I would CERTAINLY not do the formaldehyde bath unless you want dead fish - just my opinion.

 

[nonimmigrant]

can Melafix used in the reef aquarium ? is it totally safe for corals ?
and especially, does it work ?

你好，这个我没有用过，但是肯定没有绝对不会伤害珊瑚的药品。还有问题就可以pm我。－ 韩

sorry folks, just helping with translation and answers! :beer:

 

[Bambi99]

Archilles World

Archilles World

you just cycled the tank and put X2 Achilles in? seems like a bad idea IMO....I would only put these in an established tank. I also think your tank is too small for 2 of these, let alone 1...I had 1 in my 180, which is a 6ft tank and that felt small to me for a 3-4" AT.

Erm.......u have a point......but my water parameters are there in just 2 weeks but I wait out the other 2 weeks........

Updates on 2nd day :-

PH has lowered to 8.2
KH has dropped to 10
Dosed some calcium to try and bring it up to 400..........

Found that both still do not eat the red bamboo..........

Grabbed a nori sheet from my fridge and put it in...........

The chaser (smaller) Archilles start to eat them..........I think he loves it..........the other Archilles is still not eating but occassionally pecking at the live sand (guess some food remnants).........

The chaser has a few white spots..........I am thinking whether this scenario is the same as the one I had previously on my purple tang whom survived 3 bouts of white spots.........had done hypo on the Purple tang 2 times and it was healed forever..........

Will keep monitoring their progress constantly.........meantime will go buy some other dried seaweeds/algae for them to try tonite.......

 

[nonimmigrant]

Erm.......u have a point......but my water parameters are there in just 2 weeks but I wait out the other 2 weeks........

Updates on 2nd day :-

PH has lowered to 8.2
KH has dropped to 10
Dosed some calcium to try and bring it up to 400..........

Found that both still do not eat the red bamboo..........

Grabbed a nori sheet from my fridge and put it in...........

The chaser (smaller) Archilles start to eat them..........I think he loves it..........the other Archilles is still not eating but occassionally pecking at the live sand (guess some food remnants).........

The chaser has a few white spots..........I am thinking whether this scenario is the same as the one I had previously on my purple tang whom survived 3 bouts of white spots.........had done hypo on the Purple tang 2 times and it was healed forever..........

Will keep monitoring their progress constantly.........meantime will go buy some other dried seaweeds/algae for them to try tonite.......

My big AT only at nori sheets soaked in Selcon for a good 18 months before it started taking other foods. Now, that said, your tank IMO is young and I would recommend that you keep a very close eye on PH, NO2 and I'd add an aerator to your sump. AT's need highly oxygenated water in order to thrive.

 

[Bambi99]

Archilles World

Archilles World

My big AT only at nori sheets soaked in Selcon for a good 18 months before it started taking other foods. Now, that said, your tank IMO is young and I would recommend that you keep a very close eye on PH, NO2 and I'd add an aerator to your sump. AT's need highly oxygenated water in order to thrive.

Yes, i have been monitoring the PH, KH and N02/N03 eveeryday........I did also put 2 power Air Stones into the DT to boost up the oxygen.........sometimes even creating "nano bubble spa therapy" for them...........u have a lot of fine bubbles in the tank creating a wave like trashing of water against rocks kind of experience.........

I will need to vacuum the sand gravel these 2 days to remove the ich cysts on the sand bed and rocks..........I am just waiting for my equipment to arrive..........

 

[Bambi99]

I have read all 44 pages of RC AT Primer and also WWM's Bob Fenner's advice/comments on AT and more of parameters control especially Redox.........also my previous experience with bouts of ICH due to over stock / bioload and stress and curing some of the fishes.........so I am well prepared this time........I think I will overcome it eventually.........only thing now is do to get the "chasee" AT to eat even though he is the one who is bigger but get chased occassionally..........he does not even change colour (except the eyes) when being provoked and does not swim drastically away........so I dun tink both ATs are experiencing that high level of stress.........they also does not seem to possess any territory as they are always swimming in the open........even when lights off..........the Chaser AT does speck at my big sheet of nori when I am not looking or near the tank........but he is plain lazy...........I need to break up the nori sheets into tiny pcs and then flood the tank with them and he will have a field day eating like a pig............