Acrylic fabrication questions? I can help!

Sorry it was confusing before, a drawing often helps fix that! Please see below:



I'm thinking apply the adhesive to the bottom acrylic panel, and also along the edge of the side panel (that's vertical). Once it's been help in for 20-30 secs, simply push the panel against the back of the jig and slide down. This will help hold the side to the base at 90° with out having to slide out pins.

Do you think this may work? Obviously the design will need tweaking and trailing, just something I thought could be worth exploring?

Your thoughts would be appreciated. :cool:
 
No, you want the bottom panel flat. The solvent will run out and you won't get your fillet. Also you need to make the bond such that your bottom panel extends out past the outside of the joint so that a fillet forms on the outer edge and inner edge or else air will suck into the joint from the outside. Your 90 degree bracket needs to be on the inside.

like this

001_zps1c5bbea2.jpg
 
What will maintain the gap between the two panels while the solvent softens the acrylic. The pins are mainly to hold a perfect gap between the panels. Enough that the solvent will have sufficient volume to soften the acrylic, but small enough that it will wick into the gap. I think your device would have a problem holding that gap perfectly spaced, and providing enough downward force once the panels are joined. Another problem I see is in the shimming of the panels. Just having a perfectly straight edge isn't enough. The cast panels are stronger than extruded, but they have allot larger tolerance in panel thickness. This deviation is accommodated for by the use of a foam base and shims to adjust the sheet thickness deviations to the straight machined edge.

I think the way that Turbo mentioned is the standard for a reason. It works well, because even if you had a perfectly machined edge, and a perfectly flat work surface, the tolerances in the panel thickness are too great to be able to just weld them.
 
I just saw Turbo's post. All that is right also. You have about 10 different problems to overcome before that design would work. Are you trying to make something that you can use repeatedly to create a production run of some acrylic part?
 
I see. The reasoning for the "slight angle" on the jig was once the side panel was set in place in could be left until the adhesive joined the panels together. Looks like I am back to the drawing board so to speak. Once I get the method down, I am actually looking at making a lot more tanks/sumps so I am keen to make a jig or such to make the job much easier in the future.

I'm thinking of trying to remove the pins all together. When I trialled that method, the panels just wanted to slide around on each other.

In your photo, do you think you could clamp the vertical panel to the wooden right angle jig at a hight that the pin would allow for, apply the adhesive, remove the clamps so the panels are touching and then re-clamp till the adhesive has set.

My aim here is for (as perfect as can be) bubble free, strong joins. What do you think of the above method?

Jugger - Yes, I am trying to make a jig of sorts to be able to create a series of tanks/sumps. Our company makes a lot of plastic parts and I have access to a lot of tools/CNC machines to make what ever is needed to make the job easier. I should note that my company is not trying to sell these, I just can use our work shop to make them. I have myself, friends and family etc that would like me to make them tanks...
 
Last edited:
You need to get to the basics of tank construction. Unfortunately there is no summary yet for this thread so here are some of my recent posts that should help you understand the process

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23454729&postcount=4022

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23454953&postcount=4024

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23471805&postcount=4068

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23484616&postcount=4081

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23489100&postcount=4087

There are reasons behind each of these steps, so feel free to ask any question about why I do something the way I do.

In your photo, do you think you could clamp the vertical panel to the wooden right angle jig at a hight that the pin would allow for, apply the adhesive, remove the clamps so the panels are touching and then re-clamp till the adhesive has set.

No, as stated before, you position the joint all together dry-fit, that means foam jig, clamps, shims etc (no pins). Once you get the joint set up like this where it is reasonably snug (the two piece are in full contact across the entire joint) THEN you add the pins, adjust shims to keep the pins snug, blow, solvent, pull pins, and the 2 pieces will again be in full contact with each other, just like they were before you added the pins.

As far as the piece sliding around, the jig will keep this generally in place. You can add a 5lb weight or a brick to the horizontal part of the jig to help but depending on the weight of the vertical piece, it still may shift when you pull the pins. This is of no concern though because you will absolutely need to shift the vertical piece into final position after the last pin is pulled. But you have 15-20 seconds of good working time in which to do this when you use the pins method. For instance, you will need to ensure that the 2 pieces meet up with each other at the corners of the joint (the future top/bottom joints) otherwise you will have a ridge to scrape off before you put those panels on. etc. does this technique make a bit more sense now?

What I usually do after I have everything done (joint has started to set up) is wait a few minutes after the joint solvent has set, and then loosen the clamps momentarily to let the piece settle slightly (we're taking fractions of a mm here) and this is probably what you are thinking of when you want to "push the pieces together". literally, fractions of a mm, probably only a few nm, and really only necessary on smaller pieces because the material weight of larger/thicker material will do the job. Also this is another reason you put the horizontal piece on foam boards, because the foam compresses and pushes the joint together
 
Hi Gents,

Once again thanks for all the information since my last post. I've done a lot of reading and some trials using the pin method with some good success so far.

I've reached out to a few acrylic fabricators/adhesive manufacturers and they've both tried to move me away from using solvent adhesive for a pressure tank. They both recommend using a UV cured adhesive for building a tank. What are your guys thoughts on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh38iGi0kIg

I came across this video when I first started researching but dismissed it due to the UV adhesive being used. The method seems like it could be work exploring.

Would love your opinions on using this method/adhesive from you all.
 
Addendum to that (I wrote that right after I woke up...felt kinda snarky)

IME, you are probably talking to someone who reads the manufacturer's recommendations and takes them at face value. This happens a lot.

Here's a little story that will shed some light on why I say this.

I spent a lot of time on Google trying to find the best method for tapping large holes in acrylic (for my algae scrubbers). What I found out is that google doesn't help you find the answer to everything...far from it, in this case. The closest I got was an article from 15-20 years ago that was written by a guy who worked at Cyro (they make Acrylite) about hole tapping, but it was mainly w/r to small holes and not ones that were all the way through. Anyways, on a whim I called Cyro and asked for him, and lo and behold, he was still working there.

He was a very nice and helpful gentleman. He had been working for Cyro for something like 30 years, probably longer than most of his co-workers. He didn't really have an answer for my question on hole tapping (hmmmph) but I took the opportunity to poke his brain on bond strength questions. To make a long story short, he told me that 2-part adhesive was what he always recommended, and "never solvent welding for aquariums" and that is pretty much a quote.

I proceeded to tell him that many of the top manufacturers use solvent welding for tank up to 2" thick. His response was basically towing the line on bond strength based on the solvent properties. So I dug further. I asked him how they determined that a solvent weld was inferior.

His answer was quite telling. I can't recall if he utilized the pins method or not, but at this point I'll assume that he did. What they did was form a 2-part joint, and then a solvent joint, and then tested them to see which broke easier. The solvent weld broke easier. When I asked him how long they let the joint cure, he said it was something on the order of a few hours.

Problem!

Solvent joints do not fully cure in just a few hours. Set a pinned joint and then try to break it in 2-4 hours, and the joint will break at the weld. Let it sit for 24 hours or more, and the material will break before the weld does. When I told him this, he didn't really have an insight, because...they hadn't tried that.

The joint curing time is a critical factor in joint strength. Not touching the joint - not moving the piece in progress AT ALL for 20 hours, is critical.

Now, back to the weld strength. As far as I know, the acrylic aquarium fabrication industry is the only "division" of the acrylic fabrication industry that promotes and utilizes the "pins" method. Ask any local fab shop what this method is that you'll get the deer-in-the-headlights look. Explain it to them, and it's like a light bulb lit up in their brain.

When it comes to solvent welding bond strength, the entire acrylic fabrication industry is highly focused on bond strength charts, but those chart for solvent welding almost always (IMO) are written based on capillary welds. At best, they are based on capillary welds where the joint is kept separate by leaning one piece a bit, running the solvent, and then immediately putting the 2 pieces together (which, note, you cannot do for the top/bottom panel). Minimal soak time. This does NOT create a strong joint, so then the immediate conclusion that the industry reaches (based on the misleading joint strength data they are handed by the manufacturers of material and solvents) is that 2-part is much stronger. While that may be the case, it's completely unnecessary to make that leap because when solvent + pins is used, it's really not THAT much stronger.

Capillary welds snap clean. Pinned joint welds snap at the material. You can tell that a solvent joint is strong immediately after it is cured. You can only tell that a 2-part joint is strong when you fill the tank and it doesn't explode. Nearly every tank you've seen that has had a catastrophic seam failure that wasn't a material defect was a 2-part joint (big cylinder tanks, etc). When they go, they pop like a capillary weld joint.

Now it just occurred to me that I didn't really answer your question.

They both recommend using a UV cured adhesive for building a tank

No one (that I know of) in the tank building industry uses UV resistant material. So why would your solvent or adhesive need to be UV resistant? The answer is, it flat out doesn't.
 
PS that's actually a pretty cool video. Evonik = Cyro = Acrylite. Not the way to build a tank though. Nice way to make an invisible joint, but that's 2-part (like Weld-on 40). Most people that make 2-part joints (aquarium builders) don't cut the corners on 45s because it is extremely difficult to get this to assembly just right, it's much easier to cut rectangular edges and put a few degrees of on the cut edge and use a similar technique. This is what the ATM guys do if you pay attention to the joint assembly parts of their show (which comprise about 5 total seconds per episode)
 
Don't they recommend that you anneal the part if you 2 part it also to get it to maximum strength? That is definitely beyond the scope of most DIY or even commercial builders. As far as catastrophic 2 part seam failures, you need look no further than nineball's system. That still makes me sick to think about.
 
yes I think most manufacturers (of material and adhesive) recommend annealing, and you are correct this is well out of reach for most anyone.

As far as nineball's tank goes, it's likely that the failure was caused by a manufacturing or material defect, I'm not sure that the bottom joint was 2 part. Based on the pictures I saw, I thought it was a solvent joint and that the stress was focused at or near the point of failure based on the geometry of the tank and the thickness of the panel (the short side of the L was thinner material than the long side). IIRC the insurance company said it was a manufacturing defect.
 
Thanks again for the wealth of information. There is another video where he cuts one acrylic panel at 4° and welds it to a flat piece, which looks like it would be a much easier method - as you described above.

At my shop, I am going to conduct the following trials. I've got a solvent based adhesive (called Acri-Bond 105 - we can't get Weld On 3/4 in Australia), a UV cured adhesive and I've just ordered some 2 part structural adhesive. I am going to trial the strength of 4 different methods

- Solvent weld, capillary method
- Solvent weld, pin method
- UV cured weld, 4° method
- 2 Part Structural weld, 4° method

I plan on trying to break all welds in our hydraulic press and record the levels at which they break. It'll be interesting to see how the different types/methods respond. It's interesting to note that the only adhesive Evonik recommend for aquariums is a 2 part. In saying that a lot of people do rely on data sheets and brochures so it will be very interesting to see how the results come back.
 
Evonik has always said that and nearly every tank manufacturer has ignored that advice.

Also acrylic is now made in China so I would be interested to see your results as this caused the material to fall out of favor as one of the top 3 products, behind Polycast and Plex G. Also use only Cell Cast Acrylite GP for this test. No one uses extruded for tank builds.

I would also like to see a like-comparison run for Plexiglas-G Cell Cast (printed mask).
 
Yea, I hadn't really thought about the added stresses on an L shaped tank. If you think about it, it is fundamentally a lever. Wouldn't take much torque on a 6' lever to apply insane amounts of stress.

Is it a 4 degree bevel on two pieces that are joined at a right angle? That would do 2 things I would think. Make sure you have a gap so that you don't squeeze out all of the glue and because it is a hypotenuse, it will actually give you more material to adhere to.
 
For all my trials I've been using Plexiglas GS, the cell cast printed mask that you refer too. I haven't come across Acrylite GP in Australia (nor have I sort it out).

Juggers - its a 4° chamfer on one edge of the acrylic panel, joined at 90° to a flat panel - leaving a small gap to fix with adhesive. This is the video, it will explain it better than my text.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKuLAr1tdGs
 
Hello everyone,

Thanks for the advice in advance.



I have an acrylic aquarium "spartech poly cast acrylic" 3/4 inch sides and bottom, was made by professionals.

The tank is 30x60x24 180gal, 30 inch tall. It is a pain to clean, I want to cut 6-8 inches off the top and make it 22-24 inches tall with no brace on top, "rimless", . Will 3/4 inch be strong enough for this, or should I cut it down shorter? I basicly will go as short as I need to not require the brace on top, if possible. Any advice , suggestions, opinions, tips on how to cut the acrylic. I was going to make several shallow passes with a circular saw, if there is a better way?

Thanks again
Jeff
 
Dang man why would you want to cut apart a perfectly good tank like that LOL

Polycast is the best material that you would want to have for an acrylic tank, I wouldn't mess with it. But I understand your desire.

The issue is that rimless means really beefy. With 3/4" walls, you're going to need to cut that way way down to not end up with a bow that affects the vertical joints in the corners. And I'm talking something on the order of 12" or 15" - not 100% sure on that, but that's the general range we're talking here.

The best way, IMO, to cut a tank down is to get some very straight pieces of acrylic or something else you can frame around the tank to give you a guide, then use a router pushed up against the guide. Even then, it's tricky, because you don't want the weight of the tank to bind the bit or fall out and crack out the tank while you're cutting it.

Just thinking off the top of my head, you could lay the tank on it's back and cut along the front first. Then flip the tank on to the front, and cut the sides and back.

If you do it right, then you could bond a panel on to the top euro and have 2 rimless 14" tanks.

But me, I'd leave it alone, or sell it and have one made that you like. Not many tanks are built that well.
 
Ok , I understand what your saying there about the weight cracking it , and yes I would use a guide to cut the sides. With the router , do u make one cut or a few shallow cuts?

It's a tough call I know. I'm not good at selling things, just tend to keep them haha.
 
I'd sell it and get what I wanted. I agree with Floyd, that tank isn't built to be a rimless. That material would need to be allot thicker for you to keep any decent height to it. You will probably just end up with a really nice frag tank at 14" tall.
 
Back
Top