Advanced Water Changes - A Discussion
- Thread starter Electrobes
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Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Sure will, and honestly I am a bit bothered by this discovery for mixing their salt. I just can't see a good reason as to not super mix and aerate ASW. Though I know so little chemistry, I feel that dkeller_nc may have hit the nail on the head about the reason behind these weird instructions.
If true, then I will switch salt and just adjust my dosing equipment to compensate. I am uncomfortable with the thought of precipitate potentially going into the tank, though it does very little bad things to the tank. It tells me that I am spending the extra bucks and it's being left in my 5G mixing bucket!
A 200 gallon box of IO (not RC) here is about $40, mixes clear in an hour or so even though I almost always let it mix overnight. It usually takes months before I see any precip on the mixing can, none on the power head but I do rinse it and the can out before and after each use and give it a vinegar bath a few times a year.
It is funny how different people mix salt, some go through a lot of hassle. I start with room temp water and dump all 11 or 12 cups in all at once to vigorously mixing water and put the lid on it. I check it after an hour or so to make sure it is all dissolved, which it almost always is, put the lid on it and let it mix until the next day. No precip, sludge and or hassle. Alk is around 11 and calcium around 420 and Mag about 1450.
It is funny how different people mix salt, some go through a lot of hassle. I start with room temp water and dump all 11 or 12 cups in all at once to vigorously mixing water and put the lid on it. I check it after an hour or so to make sure it is all dissolved, which it almost always is, put the lid on it and let it mix until the next day. No precip, sludge and or hassle. Alk is around 11 and calcium around 420 and Mag about 1450.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Wow.. with those params and mixing experience I'm feeling more towards just switching salts at this rate. I am pretty sure most of the extra money I spent on RSPC salt precipitated out into the mix bucket!
Honestly though, I just feel like any salt that can be overly mixed and aerated just doesn't seem right. I can't imagine that it wouldn't precipitate out into my tank where I've got plenty of aeration from my over-sized skimmer, plenty of water movement, and fairly consistent parameters (That are a bit higher than normal). Maybe I am just old school... jeebus am I old? :lol:
Oh dear.. 
I throw some RO/DI water in a 5 gallon pail, measure my salt for the bucket into the first gallon, add more water to make 4 gallons total, throw a heater, and an airstone in, lay the cover on the bucket so nothing gets in, come back in 24 hours and do my water change... I use Kent Reef Salt.
I throw some RO/DI water in a 5 gallon pail, measure my salt for the bucket into the first gallon, add more water to make 4 gallons total, throw a heater, and an airstone in, lay the cover on the bucket so nothing gets in, come back in 24 hours and do my water change... I use Kent Reef Salt.
I have to agree, I use a maxi-mod in my 32 gallon brute and the water movement in it is not really better than the tank, I am running about 8700gph in a 40x40x17 tank, if it could precip in my mixing container, it would also precip in my tank. If you do a search on RSCP you will see that many people have had issues with it the past few years. I am not sure what makes it a premium salt, lol.
lucky_snapper
New member
Same here. I dump the bag of salt in, then turn on a mag 9.5 and let it mix for about a 2-3 min and then pump it into the tank. Had the tank running for over 2 years and no issues. I/O Reef Crystals
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dkeller_nc
New member
This is absolutely correct. It's true that the dissolved organic content of tank water might have some small affect on the stability of dissolved calcium and carbonate ions, but it's going to be small. I suspect the reason we don't see it in our tanks is that we're typically doing 10% water changes, so the amount of calcium carbonate that precipitates is quite small, and it has a lot of surface to precipitate on that isn't obvious - like reef sand and live rock.
By the way -I do get precipitation from IO. After perhaps 7 or 8 batches, I can notice a brownish-white precipitate coating the inside of the mixing vat and the powerhead I use to mix the saltwater. I assume this to be calcium carbonate, since it rapidly dissolves in hydrochloric acid or vinegar.
I get the same, after about the same number of mixes. It is mostly the white carbonate buildup but on occasion a little brown residue and is the reason for a vinegar cleaning a couple times a year. I consider it normal but some of the pics people have shown after one or two mixes with RSCP or RC is just sad. Some of the pics of RSCP while mixing are just pathetic, to spend that much money on a salt that doesn't dissolve very well seems silly to me, especially since it doesn't contain some magical potion that grows corals any better than other salts.
dkeller_nc
New member
Yeah, but people always like to be told that "product X" will magically make their life easier and less work. The pitch men on those blue-screen TV advertisements make their living exploiting that trait.
(But Wait! Order in the next 10 minutes and we'll give you Two Shamwows for the price of one!!!)
I'm not sure RSCP is considered a premium salt at DFS its only $2 more than reef crystals and about $11 more than IO regular prices, I think premium salt I think TMPR which I had lots of issues with or aquavitro salinity or ESV for the best general reviews out there.
I think a lot of people tanks are affected differently with different salts, I've tried many over the years and it has been fairly easy to tell how certain salts caused a decline in coral colors at least but maybe specific to my water chemistry, where others wouldn't notice.
Red sea has explained more than once why it happens in the mixing bucket but not the tank, it's not knew news to them at all.
I think a lot of people tanks are affected differently with different salts, I've tried many over the years and it has been fairly easy to tell how certain salts caused a decline in coral colors at least but maybe specific to my water chemistry, where others wouldn't notice.
Red sea has explained more than once why it happens in the mixing bucket but not the tank, it's not knew news to them at all.
mc-cro
(macro)
I am surprised this thread is still going, I really have never put that much thought into mixing.
I am much like sirreal63. I fill up a 50g barrell with room temp ro/di, throw in a mag 12, and a bag of good old regular IO. Let it mix for 24hrs, test the salinity, and turn the pump off. It usually takes me 2-3 weeks to use that barrell of water. No heat, no mixing, no aeration, just sealed with a lid.
its just salt water, I refuse to believe you can over mix it. or that any parameter other than PH will change as it sits there waiting to be used.
I am much like sirreal63. I fill up a 50g barrell with room temp ro/di, throw in a mag 12, and a bag of good old regular IO. Let it mix for 24hrs, test the salinity, and turn the pump off. It usually takes me 2-3 weeks to use that barrell of water. No heat, no mixing, no aeration, just sealed with a lid.
its just salt water, I refuse to believe you can over mix it. or that any parameter other than PH will change as it sits there waiting to be used.
mr.maroonsalty
New member
Observation: I no longer get that brownish residue since switching to a glass mixing reservoir.
Charlene
Certified Reef Fanatic
I do too. My caveot is I assume we are talking to coral folks cuz I doubt the fish care about anything other than the Sg and pH. So who's making such a salt? I want a salt that I can mix and keep my powerhead going 2 weeks. I want to mix up 2 weeks of needed saltwater at a time. Is this even possible for coral tanks?
Gorgok
New member
I put water in a 5 gal bucket, put in the same measured amount of salt i always do, spin it with a wooden fork/rake i made a few turns to get a nice vortex in the center, then i spin the other way and stop it. At that point i stop the ATO, drain 5 gal, hook up ATO to new bucket and turn it back on.
When the bucket starts screaming a few hours later (its only an aqua lifter) i just move the thing back to fresh water and let it be.
dkeller_nc
New member
It isn't that the mixing itself can cause any changes - mechanical action has little to no affect on the inorganic chemistry of the solution. But it is definitely possible to put two or more fundamentally incompatible soluble salts into a mixture that will then precipitate out over several days as the mixture reaches equilibrium with the CO2 in the atmosphere (that would be the affect of mixing/aeration - equilibration of the dissolved gases in the atmosphere).
But - I think you are correct in that it's no big deal either way. If it's at equilibrium in the mixing bucket, then fine, if it's not, it will reach equilibration in the tank after a water change.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Here's the thing, I intended this thread to go into another direction. I was actually trying to talk about "seeding" (Probably an inappropriate term to use in this case) the new ASW, letting it run for a week or so, and then doing the water change. I was reading around the forums, saw that, and it merely piqued my interest.
I too believe it a bit preposterous to over mix saltwater. I now firmly believe all that "residue" (as explained by the letter below) was the increased parameters left behind in the bucket, I basically paid for a salt, to have it shed it's upper parameters into the bucket, and then put that lightened saltwater into my tank. That is why I am now shying away from RSPC salt (After two years of using it), and have since returned to IO, where I use my dosing pumps to adjust my parameters.
If it interests anyone, here is the response I got from Red Sea (After I sent them this):
Hi,
I have been using RSPC salt for the past two years, and just yesterday discovered something that truly shocked me. It seems I have been mixing this salt as suggested for the vast majority of salt... and unfortunately it is not as instructed for mixing RSPC salt.
I mix up a five gallon batch of ASW (Artifical Salt Water) every week for use of a water change. I do the following:
1 - Make five gallons of RO/DI water.
2 - I currently use two pumps for mixing ASW, at the same time: A Koralia 3 and a Maxijet 1200 with the air intake installed (To blow air into the water while mixing).
3 - I slowly pour the salt into the bucket as the water is being mixed with the two pumps.
4 - I let it mix for about twenty four hours in my home, at 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
5 - I then perform the water change.
My problems over the last two years, but ignored because my reef aquarium (40Br) never showed ill effects:
1 - My bucket and both pumps are covered in a white chalky substance PER mixing. To clarify, after just one mixing, my mixing equipment is absolutely covered, to the point where I often have to cleaned it out with a cleaning brush.
Discovery!
I was asking about various methods of making ASW for water changes when I was informed that specific salts had to NOT be mixed past a certain point in time, and that they should NOT be aerated. He told me Aquavitro Salinity was an example. I believed it to be false, and looked it up.. and sure enough I was correct... breathing a sigh of relief.
It turns out, he merely got the wrong salt.. it was RSPC salt! I was devastated, crying in a corner realizing the failure I was at being a Reefing God. Okay, no, not really but I was honestly surprised that conventional wisdom for mixing ASW didn't apply, at all, for RSPC salt.
Questions:
1) What is that chalky substance leftover on my pumps and in my bucket?
2) What effects did overly mixing (Via length of time) and aeration have on the ASW. What's the difference between a properly mixed batch of ASW versus what I have been doing the last two years?
Thank you!!
Response:
Stop crying and get out of the corner as you have done your system no harmJ The white, chalky residue is merely precipitated calcium carbonate. The very high levels of the foundation elements can react with atmospheric CO2 as well as heat generated by the mixing pumps. The ASW you produced was perfectly suited for use in your system, you simply had slightly less CA and ALK as you left some in the bucket.
Here is a great video that explains the specific mixing suggestions for Coral Pro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlIHJ02NaKk
Thank you and have a great day
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Sparkpaul
New member
Precipitation happened to me too when I was using rscp salt because I had a pump running a bit warm and mixing for 24 hours. It cover the bottom of the reservoir. Now I switched to Kent and no more white coating on the buttom.
This is very informative and I might try to use rscp salt. I'm a bit hesitant because my corals are doing so well.
This is very informative and I might try to use rscp salt. I'm a bit hesitant because my corals are doing so well.
