Advanced Water Changes - A Discussion
- Thread starter Electrobes
- Start date
I've used RSCP since starting back with the hobby a few months back.
I've not had any issues at all, I have a 50l reservoir that I pump in 25l of RO/DI @ 0 TDS at outside ambient temperature (my mixing station is in my garage. I then slowly add 955g of RSCP after mixing the salt in the bucket throughly. Chuck a pump in for 2 hours to mix, then chuck in a heater to bring up to temp.
It's never cloudy, and I've not had one iota of precipitation,
Will
I've not had any issues at all, I have a 50l reservoir that I pump in 25l of RO/DI @ 0 TDS at outside ambient temperature (my mixing station is in my garage. I then slowly add 955g of RSCP after mixing the salt in the bucket throughly. Chuck a pump in for 2 hours to mix, then chuck in a heater to bring up to temp.
It's never cloudy, and I've not had one iota of precipitation,
Will
I use Seachem Aquavitro Salinity and read up quite a bit on it before using it . Basically you have to mix and use it WITHIN 24 hrs otherwise you will get major precipitation and your KH will drop drastically. The folks at the Seachem lab typically mix their water for several hours before using. This is a great salt, just beware its not for long term storage. Also beware the salt has a major exothermic reaction when added to water - I once burned my hand which was under water in the bucket with stirr rod when adding salt.
I wonder how the salt knows that it is no longer in a "mixing container" and is in an aquarium? Does it begin to stress out after mixing for 11 hours, knowing it is about to precip? I am not in favor of sentient salt mixes. 
All kidding aside, I really am curious about what is different about these salts that could have a time limit imposed on them in mixing.
All kidding aside, I really am curious about what is different about these salts that could have a time limit imposed on them in mixing.
Vinny Kreyling
Premium Member
When I worked maintenance we used IO, & or Tropic Marin.
Fill the container with RO water and add salt while filling.
Some customers had RO water waiting in a brute can.
Used a BIG water pump for mixing while cleaning tank.
As long as water was clear you are good to go, can't wait for 24 hrs on a job.
We never left a salt mix for the next time.
Fill the container with RO water and add salt while filling.
Some customers had RO water waiting in a brute can.
Used a BIG water pump for mixing while cleaning tank.
As long as water was clear you are good to go, can't wait for 24 hrs on a job.
We never left a salt mix for the next time.
FlyPenFly
SPS Killer
Salt Mix workout.
Vinny Kreyling
Premium Member
ESV is a gem IMHO, a little pricey but you will notice NO CHANGES in coral appearance and crystal clear water when you do a water change.
They make a great salt!
They make a great salt!
Sparkpaul
New member
I'd like to know what defines purest?
Kent has been amazing and consistent in the past six months for me compare to rscp and reef crystal that I used before.
I am gonna give esv a try.
What are esv parameters?
dkeller_nc
New member
I wonder how the salt knows that it is no longer in a "mixing container" and is in an aquarium? Does it begin to stress out after mixing for 11 hours, knowing it is about to precip? I am not in favor of sentient salt mixes.
All kidding aside, I really am curious about what is different about these salts that could have a time limit imposed on them in mixing.
This is a very interesting question with a lot of subtleties, actually. And even though I have a PhD in what amounts to physical chemistry, I certainly don't have all of the answers.
But here's some speculation:
Most ionic precipitation reactions are dang near instant - it's actually a worthwhile demonstration to add teaspoon of baking soda to a container of kalkwasser to see how nearly instant this is. But clearly in many hobbyist's experience (and mine), it takes some hours or even days for calcium/magnesium and possibly other metallic elements to form insoluble carbonates and sulfates and precipitate out in a mixing bucket.
Yet, I don't find the brown crusty stuff that I find in my salt mixing vats anywhere in my tanks.
This would be my guess - the organic components that are in everyone's tank water play a significant role in stabilizing the ionic components of seawater. This might be why it's possible to package NSW and sell it in stores (such as Petco's NSW product) and not have it turn into mostly water with a crusty layer of precipitate at the bottom of the container.
dkeller_nc
New member
Everyone - Thought of posting this question as a new topic in the SPS forum, but decided it'd be a better add-on to this thread.
While I do have a great deal of chemistry background, I certainly haven't tried a lot of different salt mixes out there. Mostly it's been instant ocean, reef crystals, and one or two experiences with Red Sea Coral Pro.
Here's the question - has anyone trolled through the forums on the net and found a ASW mix that very closely approximates NSW conditions in alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and other major/minor elements? I'm aware of some of the manufacturer's claims to this effect, but I've also read a lot of real-world experiences with those same manufacturer's products that would indicate inconsistency.
One that I was specifically interested in trying was Brightwell Aquatics NeoMarine, because their claim is that they've gone to extreme lengths to include all of the major/minor and trace elements in NSW, and if mixed up to 1.025, it should be about as close as can be obtained to NSW.
Here's why I'm asking - I've read some articles that suggest that a lot of salt manufacturers exclude boron (in the form of sodium borate) from their mixes, and/or mess with the sulfate concentrations to achieve "elevated" levels of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium that are at least quasi-stable when initially mixed.
An example is my frustration with Instant Ocean's wicked-high alkalinity when initially mixed. I consistently get dkH's of 10 - 12, depending on how fast I can get it into solution and get a sample out for testing. But I don't personally want to use it in that state, so I circulate it for a day or two, and over that time, the alkalinity falls to somewhere between 8-9, and the calcium seems to equilibrate out to about 390-400 ppm. That's OK, I can certainly adjust the parameters to my liking with supplements, but I'm wondering what's specifically been added/left out of the mix in comparison to NSW that leads to that equilibration behavior.
Just one observation that has me wondering about this - the "sharp" smell when IO is first mixed up really reminds me of sodium thiosulfate. It wouldn't shock me that IO intentionally adds this compound as a dechlorinator.
While I do have a great deal of chemistry background, I certainly haven't tried a lot of different salt mixes out there. Mostly it's been instant ocean, reef crystals, and one or two experiences with Red Sea Coral Pro.
Here's the question - has anyone trolled through the forums on the net and found a ASW mix that very closely approximates NSW conditions in alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, and other major/minor elements? I'm aware of some of the manufacturer's claims to this effect, but I've also read a lot of real-world experiences with those same manufacturer's products that would indicate inconsistency.
One that I was specifically interested in trying was Brightwell Aquatics NeoMarine, because their claim is that they've gone to extreme lengths to include all of the major/minor and trace elements in NSW, and if mixed up to 1.025, it should be about as close as can be obtained to NSW.
Here's why I'm asking - I've read some articles that suggest that a lot of salt manufacturers exclude boron (in the form of sodium borate) from their mixes, and/or mess with the sulfate concentrations to achieve "elevated" levels of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium that are at least quasi-stable when initially mixed.
An example is my frustration with Instant Ocean's wicked-high alkalinity when initially mixed. I consistently get dkH's of 10 - 12, depending on how fast I can get it into solution and get a sample out for testing. But I don't personally want to use it in that state, so I circulate it for a day or two, and over that time, the alkalinity falls to somewhere between 8-9, and the calcium seems to equilibrate out to about 390-400 ppm. That's OK, I can certainly adjust the parameters to my liking with supplements, but I'm wondering what's specifically been added/left out of the mix in comparison to NSW that leads to that equilibration behavior.
Just one observation that has me wondering about this - the "sharp" smell when IO is first mixed up really reminds me of sodium thiosulfate. It wouldn't shock me that IO intentionally adds this compound as a dechlorinator.
I have no idea about Brightwell salt but as a rule I never buy or use any Brightwell or Kent product. Brightwell is all about slick marketing and repackaging of existing products to make them sound new and exciting. Too may of his "claims" have been shown to be absurd. Search Randy's name and use Brightwell as the keyword. It is easy to claim anything, and over the years so many claims of magical products that are actually little more than snake oil or just absurd. The sheer number of products that Brightwell and Kent offer is enough to make you dizzy, and that is telling.
dk, there used to be a chemical breakdown of salt mixes but I haven't seen it in years, my link to it was lost long ago in a hard drive crash. IIRC Oceanic had an extremely elevated Boron level, on a significantly higher magnitude than NSW. IO categorically denies any dechlorinators in their salt mix.
http://www.instantocean.com/Instant-Answers/Instant-Ocean-FAQs/Sea-Salt.aspx
dk, there used to be a chemical breakdown of salt mixes but I haven't seen it in years, my link to it was lost long ago in a hard drive crash. IIRC Oceanic had an extremely elevated Boron level, on a significantly higher magnitude than NSW. IO categorically denies any dechlorinators in their salt mix.
http://www.instantocean.com/Instant-Answers/Instant-Ocean-FAQs/Sea-Salt.aspx
dkeller_nc
New member
Interesting - I'm really curious about what that sharp smell is if it's not thiosulfate. It dissipates after a couple of hours, which would also be consistent with some sort of sulfite compound, but if they say they don't add it, I've no real reason to doubt them.
That's also an interesting observation about Brightwell. Kent, of course, was around when I started in this hobby a couple of decades ago, but Brightwell is a relative new-comer as far as I'm aware.
I do think many of the products marketed to reef tank hobbyists are highly amusing considering what they are and what can be substituted out of the kitchen cabinet. Brightwell's "reef biofuel" is particularly amusing, since a bottle of vinegar would do just as well (and you can use the leftovers on your salad!). I find "chemi-pure Elite" equally dubious, since the components in the media that actually do something can be purchased separately as carbon and GFO for considerably less money. However, I have to take my hat off to these companies in one respect - much of their marketing is so effective that something like CPE is now a "sacred cow".
That's also an interesting observation about Brightwell. Kent, of course, was around when I started in this hobby a couple of decades ago, but Brightwell is a relative new-comer as far as I'm aware.
I do think many of the products marketed to reef tank hobbyists are highly amusing considering what they are and what can be substituted out of the kitchen cabinet. Brightwell's "reef biofuel" is particularly amusing, since a bottle of vinegar would do just as well (and you can use the leftovers on your salad!). I find "chemi-pure Elite" equally dubious, since the components in the media that actually do something can be purchased separately as carbon and GFO for considerably less money. However, I have to take my hat off to these companies in one respect - much of their marketing is so effective that something like CPE is now a "sacred cow".
dkeller_nc
New member
Sort of off topic - but speaking of marketing and extraordinary claims:
http://www.aquabella4aquariums.com/
http://www.aquabella4aquariums.com/
If Brightwell reminds you slightly of Kent, there is a reason, if my memory is working Brightwell used to work at Kent, his father in law was a major player there and when Kent split Brightwell bought out his father in laws portion. Slick packaging works and as I was taught in marketing, proclaiming yourself the best, looking your best and making sure you tell everyone you are the best is a marketing strategy that works. It doesn't matter if the product is better, what matters is that you convince people it is.
That AquaBella is a perfect example of this and sadly people buy it.
That AquaBella is a perfect example of this and sadly people buy it.
dkeller_nc
New member
Personally, I do feel for the average aquarist, though. The basis of some of these products are sound, they're just ridiculously expensive for what they are.
If someone asked me to formulate a "reef buffer", I'd just pull out my calculator, look up some information in the CRC, and combine sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate into the solution with the desired pH.
But to most of the population, basic chemistry knowledge is about as mysterious as assembly language, so they're stuck without the knowledge for sufficient skepticism when trying to figure out what's reasonable and what's not as far as marketing claims.
Here's another sad one - like anyone with a reef tank could prevent coralline algae from covering everything!:
http://www.continuumaquatics.com/marine_ca/coralline_purplecx.php
If someone asked me to formulate a "reef buffer", I'd just pull out my calculator, look up some information in the CRC, and combine sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate into the solution with the desired pH.
But to most of the population, basic chemistry knowledge is about as mysterious as assembly language, so they're stuck without the knowledge for sufficient skepticism when trying to figure out what's reasonable and what's not as far as marketing claims.
Here's another sad one - like anyone with a reef tank could prevent coralline algae from covering everything!:
http://www.continuumaquatics.com/marine_ca/coralline_purplecx.php
Its one of my favorite smells! Funny, a guy at the LFS told me back in the 80's, you dont have to dechlor if your using it to mix IO. But it did not say it on the bag, so I always did zip drop it. And mix it.... spin it in the bucket with my hand and start a siphon(airline size) into the sump just that fast.
Now I buy thio crystals 50lb, five gallon bucket at a time. One pound in a old bleach bottle with a gallon of water neutralizes 46,000-74,000 parts. I will mix a jug tomorrow, and sniff it to see
And on a side note, for you old timers. Wasn't IO a pound or so heavier per 50G bag, like 20-30 years ago?
--John
dkeller_nc
New member
Hmm - I wouldn't be able to tell you. At the time I was a serious weight lifter in his twenties. Now everything, including the salt & pepper shakers seem to have added some weight.
mussel and hate
New member
When I'm preparing new salt water I like to mix for at least 24 hours test and match salinity temperature and alkalinity. The bigger the change the closer a match I attempt to achieve. The actual mixing is just a small submersible pump in a 5 gallon bucket Temperature generally exceeds 28C so I just unplug the pump and wait on it for a bit if the chemistry is good.
