Algae Scrubber Basics

i have a algae problem. just built a ats want uall to cortege it. i am plaining on putting a light on the other side tommorrow.
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my tank(S) r- a 180 gallon display tank.there isnt no hair algae in the display just some slime algae here and there. the fish i have in there r 1 salfin tang, 1 clown tang, 1 powder brown tang, 7 green chromis, and several hermits, one apple snail, 1 turbo snail, and lots of corals.
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110 gallon water troph with deep sand bed and live rock, small tube with cheato in it with overflow pipped in and water flows from bottom threw cheto and over the top into the 110 troph. i have a 3 foot long engineer gobie,and 2 dart fish in the troph.
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also 40 breeder for a frag tank. i have 2 clowns, 2 peperment shrimp, coralbanded shrimp, pistel shrimp, several hermit crabs, 4 anemones, and lots of frags in the 40 breeder witch where all the algae is growing. these pics r from a few months ago before the algae started to get bad.
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and a 75 gallon sump
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Ok... I am afraid you have missed the mark... Please go back and at least read post #2001 as a starting point. I can see many problems with your build and until you fix them, you will be doing very little in the way of algae scrubbing.
 
Can u point them out for me because this is what i have got out of the read. i still need to add lights i know but i thought the rest was pretty good.
 
Nope, not at all. What I do have a problem with are people making exaggerated and untrue claims. Right down to stating that Inland Aquatics only replaces 0.01% of their water daily. Simple logic would dictate that they send out quite a bit more than 3.5 gallons of water with each days sales. Even sadder is that one poster believed that figure to be true and then posted that I had lost all credibility with him. LOL

I just guessed at that figure. Maybe I should have guessed 0.1%, which would have been 35 gallons a day, or maybe 0.2% which would have been 70 gallons a day. I just threw that figure off the top of my head. And I wasn't the same person who said that you lost credibility due to that comment.

The fact is that most LFSs do large PWCs in addition to what they are replacing from sales, and Inland Aquatics does only one 5% PWC per year. This is why you lost credibility with that other user.
 
The weight of evidence at this point seems to be against the use
of algal scrubbing in reef tanks, and the method should be
considered to be highly experimental. Beginners particularly are
advised to avoid this technique until they have considerably more
experience with reefkeeping. The advanced aquarist may well wish
to experiment with this interesting and controversial method, but
it would be unwise to risk the lives of an entire reef tank full
of coral.

As compelling as some find the above arguments in theory, there
seem to be serious problems with algal scrubbing in practice.
Many attempts by public aquaria at implementing reef tanks using
only algal scrubbing have been failures. In particular, it seems
difficult to find successful long term success with Scleractinia
(stony corals) in such tanks, and those success stories which can
be found are quite difficult to verify and often contradicted by
others.

Various public and private aquaria have used algae scrubber filters on their reef aquaria, with disastrous results. The microcosm at the Smithsonain Institution has yet to keep scleractinia alive for more than a year. While Dr. Adey has stated how well corals grow in this system, those viewing the system have failed to find these corals. In an interview with Jill Johnson, one of the techs responsible for the Smithsonian tank, she stated
to Frank M. Greco that frequent collecting trips were needed to keep the system stocked with live scleractinia.

I haven't had time to read the articles where these statements are references, but what I can say is that unless the information used to come to these conclusions is recent, say less than 2 to 3 years old, then it is pretty much outdated.

There are many problems with the old dump-style algal turf scrubbers that have been improved upon or completely eliminated with the advent of the vertical waterfall style scrubber. Much of that has to do with high-speed laminar flow being able to deliver nutrients more effectively to the algae.

There has also been a large leap forward with respect to the necessary lighting requirements, spectrum, intensity, etc. Keep in mind that 25 years ago, let alone even 10 years ago, Compact Fluorescent lighting was not viable, and T5HO was not even around, and LED was not even a consideration. HPS was about all there was for grow lights.

It has been shown that there are distinct relationships between light intensity and duration, flow rates, feeding techniques, cleaning schedules, etc. These are all relatively new topics and everyone who has been around in the marine hobby long enough falls back on what they've heard in the past regarding the epic failures of stand-alone algae scrubber systems, but completely ignore the fact that there have been fundamental conceptual changes that partially or completely invalidate previous studies.

The simple fact that a change in light intensity, light duration, and flow rate across the screen will change not only the main composition of the algal growth on the screen, but will also change the effective filtration capability of that scrubber, and will also change the DOC content of the system on which that scrubber is installed, has not even been considered in those old studies. The modern design of scrubber has completely re-written the book, and all studies, not all on complete, but definitely all in part, prior to this, are pretty much irrelevant.

This thread was started to show people how to build, maintain, and troubleshoot their own algae scrubber. I myself have been confused a could of times and told people it's on the DIY forum instead of the advanced, simple mistake.

So we've gone through our little back and forth about this topic again, and again, we're exactly where we left off. I hope that my post here makes some sense however. One of the things that I had hoped to do during MACNA this year was talk to as many of the speakers and members that showed up, but being part of the club that helped put the show on, I hardly got time to stop by each booth, and I was there all 3 days plus setup!

There really needs to be some well designed studies by some colleges or universities or something. They'll all fall back on prior studies that say the things Barfly posted above, and will see no reason anything will be different because they don't understand the advances.

There have been major advances Barfly, I hope that you can see at least that. I believe that in the past, there was no case for stand-alone filtration for algae scrubbing, just like you posted, that was very valid information at the time. But things have changed, and plenty of people are running stand alone Algae Scrubber filtration on all types of systems, and I personally have only heard of one or two instances of people having serious problems, and that's out of thousands of DIYers out there, probably half of them doing something wrong but still not having problems.

So that's all I have for now, haven't caught up with the rest of the thread yet even. It's good to talk about these things every once in a while and I can see things getting heated by these discussions but I think that people need to step back and think about their responses instead of firing back so quickly. You need to understand where people are coming from. This goes for both sides...
 
Thanks Scrubber saved my tank

Thanks Scrubber saved my tank

I have a 72 Gallon bow front and until a couple of months ago I was going to throw my tank away and give up on saltwater tanks all together. I was brand new, took a lot of advice started my system and watched as it became more and more green until i found out about scrubbers. I lost all of the coral frags I bought, about $400.00 worth and just felt that I would never get it, I have it now and just bought my first new frags in over 8 months.:lolspin:

Thanks to all of you scrubbers out there who showed me the way.
 

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After the Scrubber

After the Scrubber

Here is the tank after the scrubber did it's magic. this took a total of 1 month for it to clear up, and I did not remove any of the algae, it just melted a way. Only problem I have is that i have some sea grass that is melting away as well and cheto in my sump is also slowly dieing.
 

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After a couple months on an ATS, I think I've come to the conclusion it is not effective against dinos. I think my problem is more due to low pH from a high CO2 environment in my enclosed basement. Daytime pH is steady at 7.8, night time maybe a point lower. I'm going to be moving this week to a new house, and the tank will go in the living room. I'm going to experiment with running the skimmer inlet outside, if that isn't enough, I'll try a CO2 scrubber.

It has however proven to be an effective nutrient export, so I'll probably keep it. We'll see how noisy it is when I have it being fed by the glass-holes 700gph kit pushing 500gph. I have a feeling it's going to sound like a waterfall.
 
After a couple months on an ATS, I think I've come to the conclusion it is not effective against dinos. I think my problem is more due to low pH from a high CO2 environment in my enclosed basement. Daytime pH is steady at 7.8, night time maybe a point lower. I'm going to be moving this week to a new house, and the tank will go in the living room. I'm going to experiment with running the skimmer inlet outside, if that isn't enough, I'll try a CO2 scrubber.

It has however proven to be an effective nutrient export, so I'll probably keep it. We'll see how noisy it is when I have it being fed by the glass-holes 700gph kit pushing 500gph. I have a feeling it's going to sound like a waterfall.

If you haven't already tried I would say do some research on kalk. It may help get the pH up to something closer to where it should be.
 
After a couple months on an ATS, I think I've come to the conclusion it is not effective against dinos. I think my problem is more due to low pH from a high CO2 environment in my enclosed basement. Daytime pH is steady at 7.8, night time maybe a point lower. I'm going to be moving this week to a new house, and the tank will go in the living room. I'm going to experiment with running the skimmer inlet outside, if that isn't enough, I'll try a CO2 scrubber.

It has however proven to be an effective nutrient export, so I'll probably keep it. We'll see how noisy it is when I have it being fed by the glass-holes 700gph kit pushing 500gph. I have a feeling it's going to sound like a waterfall.

I"m by no means an expert at beating dinos, so I just posted what I experienced that worked (after I screwed up the ATS light cycle). So I guess I proved that you can induce dino growth, unintentionally, then eliminate it by going back to how it should have been, at least in my system.

Your system could be completely different. I'm sure you've done a ton of reading about dinos. Have you tested you pH throughout the day for several days to see where you are peaking during the day and bottoming out at night? Carbon? GFO? Also you could increase the wattage of your scrubber lights. Forgive me I can't remember your scrubber or tank specs and I could search again but I'm catching up from MACNA. If you're running CFLs bump them up and knock the time back to the point where you are not growing yellow algae. This shorter, stronger period may help. Either way you do it, you need to make your scrubber stronger, at least temporarily.

Since algae absorbs CO2 and produces O2 (under light) it would seem to make logical sense that it can only help. Did you try cutting all feeding and leaving the DT lights on as usual, in addition to strengthening the scrubber and dripping kalk? Any other methods of raising pH used?
 
I tested my overflow and full bore it's about 400gph. I valved it back to as close to 280gph as I can get it. My screen size ended up being 8" due to my narrow sump and lighting space with the equpiment I had on hand. So I have 35gph per inch of flow on my screen.
I've got two light fixtures that will each hold 23 watt 3k bulbs. This should give me pretty close to 1 watt per gallon of light. The screen is 10" long before it hits the sump water line so I'm not sure how far down below the light center the algae will grow.

I get a bit of splashing at the end of the slotted drain, you can see in the end of the video. Any tips to fix this? For now i've got a splash shield that drips back into the sump.
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Looks good, I think your slot may be a little too narrow, which is increasing the pressure toward the end of the slot, it's coming out really heavy there and ligher in the middle. Trim out your slot tube a bit and make sure it's as straight and even as possible. You can go with higher flow too, don't be afraid of using the full 400 GPH (maybe after your screen matures). Nice reflectors, where did you get them? Those aren't the cheapo home depot ones, they're much more polished.

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my tank(S) r- a 180 gallon display tank.

110 gallon water troph

also 40 breeder for a frag tank.

and a 75 gallon sump

Are all these tied together into system? If so, your screen is too small. Your light is improper for the size of the scrubber. The floodlights are only for small/narrow screens, they just don't spread enough light. The reflector you are using is doing nothing since the floodlight has one in it. You need multiple lights on both sides and reflectors that spread the light out effectively. It's hard to tell from pics, but your screen doesn't look very rough. Flow looks a little low, but it's a new screen so it's hard to say. After a day or two there should be no streaming (there should hardly be any on day 1 if your flow was high enough). So that is what I see, like srusso said, read through posts 2001-2010.
 
Can u point them out for me because this is what i have got out of the read. i still need to add lights i know but i thought the rest was pretty good.

The lighting is probably the main thing if the screen is roughed as you say and the Mag7 delivers at least 630gph.
You're really going to need a minimum of 2 @ 23W sprial CFL's 2700k per side for a screen that size. Those spot bulbs focus the light too much and create "hot spots".
I've seen some guys build free standing ATS / screen holders inside their sumps. Maybe you can mount some lights off that?
 

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Let it go Floyd or he will come back.
You care way too much what that guy thinks.

Consider it letted gone. I mainly wanted to point out that there is a fundamental difference between the techniques of the past, which had many negatives, and the current technique, which has enjoyed a drastically different set of results across a much broader spectrum of users.
 
Scrubber has been getting good solid green growth for about a month, nothing like yours, but decent. I have a 26watt cfl on each side of my screen mounted on drop lights, using aluminum foil to make a bigger reflector. The dino's have been unchanged for the whole course of the ATS. I've read they don't really need much in the way of nutrients, and can survive in ULN systems.

The only good way I've read to kill them is elevated pH, but I cannot get me pH to stay at anything higher than 7.8. Even dumping in kalk slurry only raises pH for a few hours. Can't wait till my tank is moved to a more ventilated room.
 
yeh the display and the frag tank goes into the troph-from the troph into the 75 sump and back into the tank. how big should the screen be? i can go wider but not taller. i am plainning on changing the lights just a little low on funds so used what i had to get things started on the screen. i am using a mag 7 the pump sets in the troph using flexable tubing going straight to the ats. i roughed up the screen pretty good but i will try to do it some more.
 
looks like it's about 12 wide x 10 high right now, right? It looks like you have about 400 gallons of system water all tied together, but plenty of LR and a skimmer too so you could probably get away with it as long as you don't feed more than 10 cubes a day. But you definitely need to add lights and make sure the screen is well covered. Also you are going to bleed a lot of light into the tub, which will cause algae growth there too, which you generally don't want.
 
Consider it letted gone. I mainly wanted to point out that there is a fundamental difference between the techniques of the past, which had many negatives, and the current technique, which has enjoyed a drastically different set of results across a much broader spectrum of users.

I have proven to myself by implementing the principles in this thread that your statement is very true.
Who cares about the details of trace elements or old studies by guys who get grants to do that stuff. And just because all those heavy metals are being measured in the water it doesn't take into account what organisms are really using how much what. Pollution, maybe they don't belong there to begin with. But excuse me, I didn't spend the time to review all that outdated material. Maybe some of those guys figured out that corals do utilize copper, beryllium, etc.
I understand your passion for this issue but it is wasting your energy on someone who does not appreciate it, only doing it for his amusement.
ATS works. If it isn't working for someone then there's a problem with how it's being implemented. If a guy doesn't want to use it then help the ones that do. From what I see that keeps you plenty busy.
THANKS for being so involved with this thread.
 
yeh i know. i am going to put up some black plex up around the ats area of the troph to keep the excess light out of the hole thing.i going to put the other lights on that. thanx for all the info i am sure i will have problems along the way and need to ask more ? anything else uall need to add please let me know.
 
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