Algae Scrubber Basics

Ask whoever wrote that to produce a study that shows that algae produces any of those. They won't be able to, because it is an unsubstantiated claim. I am pretty sure the same user that fed you that line fed it to me as well. I asked SM about it and here was his response:

To my knowlege, algae does not produce skatols or creosols at all.

Algae does not produce phenols; algae removes them:

http://www.oilgae.com/algae/cult/sew/new/phe/phe.html
http://www.springerlink.com/index/0JUBGY6JLF55G0C3.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19138816

Further, corals live in the ocean, and the DOC in the ocean is produced by algae. That is what corals eat. If algae harmed corals, there would be no corals in the ocean, since algae is 90% of all life in the ocean, and DOC from corals is 95% of all carbon in the water.

Here is a decent review on RC of what algae does to corals:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1843241&page=11

And here is one of my responses on Zeo forum about DOC:
http://zeovit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=207048&postcount=96

What I find most disturbing is the vast amount of data out there that shows the algae is actually used to remove phenols as part of wastewater treatment facilities. And this information is readily found in no time. Yet, there are users out there trying to scare you away from using and algae scrubber by shouting boo.

I posted a response similar to the one above several times in response to the skatole/phenol/creosol issue, and then asked for a study to prove it, and to date I have never seen a response.

So you could look it up yourself, or you could go and find the hundreds of users who properly maintain their ATS systems and don't have any kind of issues even remotely connected to "skatoles, phenols, and creosols".

Even if it were true that algae released these in any quantity, it is highly unlikely that it would do so in the 1 week between cleanings. You would have to have a screen that had so much growth that the algae underneath died off, algae detached, found it's way back into the DT, and dissolved back into the water and released everything it absorbed. Then the chemicals it released would have to not get absorbed back by the new algae growing back in the place where it detached.

This kind of situation could possibly occur if you didn't clean the screen often enough, or didn't adequately light the screen (which would prevent heavy algae growth from occurring anyways, so it is unlikely you would have algae detach). But that is why you clean the screen every week, among other reasons.

So the bottom line here is that whoever keeps writing this stuff

1) has likely not ran an ATS in the last 3 years
2) has likely based their information on data/findings from old dump scrubbers (IA, Adey)
3) does not understand that we don't really use "turf", but Green Hair
4) thinks everyone still cleans the screens in the tank, and that we all have nasty yellow water and our sump area smells all nasty
5) may very well work for a skimmer manufacturer, or has some other kind of vested interest against a product that creates it's own filtering media
6) fears change
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatole

FYI - Skatole occurs naturally in feces. So if there's any reason why it would be present in an ATS based system, it's because the waste is not being properly exported (via weekly screen cleanings) and it is allowed to build up in the water column.

From http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/skatole

"A crystalline organic compound that is formed in the intestine by the bacterial decomposition of tryptophan and that has a strong fecal odor, found naturally in feces, beets, and coal tar."

"derivative of tryptophan formed in the putrefaction of proteins which contributes to the characteristic odor of the feces."

"Examples of the chemical compounds that've been found in bad breath include hydrogen sulfide, which smells just like rotten eggs; skatole, which has an odor like feces; and putrescine, which has an odor like rotten meat"

I think if you had this in your tank, you would know. We would be hearing all kinds of complaints from people who had tanks that smelled like a sewer, or even had a hint of it.

I could go on posting links about skatoles and passing gas. I think you get the idea though.
 
Snookster did you have a pic of your scrubber?

I just loaded a new OS on my computer, I'll get to pics later today.

If you already have an established tank then you should not have removed all of your other filtration equipment yet! It will take at least 2 months before your screen is producing the way you need it. Your setting yourself up for a tank crash! Get your skimmer back in the tank asap... Algae scrubbers work extremely well once it has matured.

Effectively, you stuck a seed in the ground and asked me where your tomatoes are....? If that makes sense. Anyway I hope nothing has effected your tank yet...

Please post some pictures of your setup and tank. Detail the screen size, flow rate, bulbs used for lighting, etc. Let's be sure the scrubber you built will get the job done.

How exactly is my tank going to crash? I thought my tank was in fairly good shape to start with. My NO3 and PO4 are not even measurable right now (or when I started).

I only have 10 fish that are small. My biggest is my orange spotted diamond goby. Actually, the biggest pig in my tank is my cleaner shrimp. I observe my tank quite often, I've seen no signs of stress. From what I've read through the various threads about ATS, the skimmer reamoves "food" for my corals. So, why not take it out, give it a well needed vinegar bath and let me corals eat better?
I don't expect the ATS to take off overnight, I still have Rowaphos handy and my skimmer can go back online in 10 minutes if I think I need it. I've only had to clean my glass once this week (compared to every other day previously) - AND I've increased feeding.

Tank: 75 with a 30 sump.
Livestock: 10 fish, all under 3", 1 cleaner shrimp, several crabs and other various fauna.
Coral: 6 SPS, 4 LPS and 25 or so zoas.
Lighting: 4 T5s (1 blue+, 2 12ks and 1 10k) and a reefbrite blue LED.

ATS: 10 x 10 screen from Joanns, 2 pigtail 23w 2700 CFLs in the clip on reflectors. I have a waterfall setup with a mag 5 on it for flow. I'll try to get pics up later today.
 
I pulled my skimmer and filter sock system completely when I installed my scrubber. Before it as 0 N and about 0.1-0.25 P and I had only the slightest nutrient spike, but that 125g tank has 250 # LR so it had a good buffer and it was very well established (3+ yrs), nitrates only got up to about 0.5 maybe, and it dropped off in a week with just the slimy algae initial growth. I think you'll be fine, but I would test N and P every day or every other day, restrict feeding if necessary, and keep that skimmer handy just in case. If you cleaned the skimmer with vinegar, it will need to be broken in again (slimed up) so keep that in mind, it may not work right if you need it immediately.
 
I pulled my skimmer and filter sock system completely when I installed my scrubber. Before it as 0 N and about 0.1-0.25 P and I had only the slightest nutrient spike, but that 125g tank has 250 # LR so it had a good buffer and it was very well established (3+ yrs), nitrates only got up to about 0.5 maybe, and it dropped off in a week with just the slimy algae initial growth. I think you'll be fine, but I would test N and P every day or every other day, restrict feeding if necessary, and keep that skimmer handy just in case. If you cleaned the skimmer with vinegar, it will need to be broken in again (slimed up) so keep that in mind, it may not work right if you need it immediately.

It's been a week and I just tested - so far so good. I've got lot's of rock and I'll keep doing water changes weekly for a bit (I slacked on that a bit towards the end of last year) too. Once I see the ats taking off, I'll start spreading them out.
 
system filtration

system filtration

I am going to have a deep gravel bed right under the ATS, mostly for ph buffering, but it will also develop the denitryfying bacteria, also expect to have chaeto for awhile in the new tanks that are cycling, so I will have a number of safety factors built in at least for the first month or two, all tanks will have gravel substrates, rocks, and live rocks, the main purpose of the ATS will be to take out of water what we dont want in it.

Bottom line I think its a mistake to have all of our eggs in one basket.
 
Pics as promised...
turf_scrubber.jpg



Here's after 7 full days
turf_scrubber_day8.jpg


I'm going to be added a couple of pieces of wood to the stand so I can get my lights at a better angle (full straight on) today. I'll be adding 2 small 1x2's cross-wise at the top that'll allow the lights to be clipped at the top upside down. That should allow maxium light coverage/power and a little less light "stray".
 
45° surge ATS

45° surge ATS

Yes ! :bounce3:

Just finished reading through all the posts :)

Thanks to all of you for a very informative thread, with a special thanks to Floyd since it is his post on Nineball's build thread that brought me here in the first place !

First of all I'd like to ask a quick question about the xenias. From what I have read here it seems that with an ATS they are a bit of a hit and miss, but I noticed on Floyd's video at the beginning of the thread that his were pulsing like crazy. I'd like to know if they were already pulsing like this before or if anybody noticed that after adding an ATS their xenias became more active ?

Now to my main questions...

I have been planning a new tank for a very long time and I always wanted to add an ATS in it. But in my mind it was much more for pods production than any real filtering capacity I thought they had.

From what I've read today it seems that maybe my dream of a skimmerless tank is not totally unreasonnable after all.

If possible, I would very much like to hear the opinions of the ATS gurus on the way I was planning on integrating this ATS to my system :D

This is a sketchup of the system I hope to build :
vueensemble.jpg


The DT plus overflow/cryptic refugium zone is roughly 500G. There would also be a sump underneath that is not on the sketchup, and an ATS/surge tank above that is about 10-15G.

My initial plan was to have a skimmer gravity fed from the overflow by a Bean Animal type overflow but I would love to dispense with the skimmer.

The surge tank would be fed by the return pump (Laguna 16000). From the flow calculator I should get about 1400 gal/hour with 2" piping accounting for all the 90 bends, height difference, etc...

I didn't draw the piping yet, but this is a close up of the DT and ATS/surge tank :
vue1.jpg


I would like to install 4 screens in inverted V shapes in the surge tank. Each screen would be about 185 square inch (on each face). That would be a total of 740 square inch (per side).

They would be lighted by 3 HO tubes on top, and 2 on the bottom (the surge tank would be acrylic). On each side the tubes would be positioned above the furthest point of the V shape :

vue2.jpg


The flow from the return pump woud be divided and sprayed on the highest points of the V shape from the top so hopefully the water would flow down along and through the screens.

Also, there would be a CSD syphon with 1.5" piping in the box on the right side which is lower than the rest. Once the level is high enough in the ATS it would start a surge emptying in a cryptic refugium underneath (with live rock) that is directly connected to the DT by 2" holes.

According to the flow calculation It would take the ATS about 25 second to be filled, and about 20 seconds to empty. I will actually be very surprised if the final timings are really like this, but it gives an idea of how it's supposed to work.

That would represent about 9 gallons in from ATS empty to the start of the surge, and 15 gallons out from the start of the surge to the ATS empty (when the ATS is emptying, the screens would still have running water flowing down them from the return pump).

My hope is that the constantly changing level of water in the ATS will alternatively lift the algea strands up and down, thus allowing for better light exposure and hopefully 3d growth while minimizing the boundary flow problems.

Also in this way hopefully all the pods would be sent to the cryptic refugium by the surge where they can continue to live and reproduce happily until another surge pushes them inside the DT.

The screens would be cleaned 2 at a time with 3-4 days interval to keep a constant filtering capacity (all 4 would be cleaned each week), and the bottom of the ATS would be cleaned as needed.

The ATS would be set up from the beginning before any animals are introduced to the tank so that it would have time to ramp up and take care of the filtration needs as they slowly increase.

Does that make any sense to anybody or am I doomed to certain failure ? :wildone:

Thanks in advance for your time and sorry about the long post...

Sylvain
 
Pics as promised...
turf_scrubber.jpg



Here's after 7 full days
turf_scrubber_day8.jpg


I'm going to be added a couple of pieces of wood to the stand so I can get my lights at a better angle (full straight on) today. I'll be adding 2 small 1x2's cross-wise at the top that'll allow the lights to be clipped at the top upside down. That should allow maxium light coverage/power and a little less light "stray".

Yeah, I was going to say, the light placement is very bad right now... Let's see what it looks like when you fix the placement. Nice build otherwise!
 
Videos are still uploading to YouTube. Will post them soon. In the meantime, here's pics

This is yesterday, just looking through the turned reflectors.

IMG_9685.jpg


IMG_9686.jpg


Today

IMG_9712.jpg


IMG_9713.jpg


DRAINED AND LIGHTLY COMPACTED

IMG_9716.jpg


3 CUPS

IMG_9715.jpg


winning.
 
Yeah, I am finally done with my build
DSC06323.jpg
DSC06328.jpg

DSC06330.jpg


I do have a question, with the socks gone I now have mirco bubbles so how do I get rid of them?
Thanks
 
As your screen starts to grow algae, the microbubbles will become less of an issue. For me, they went away completely. Microbubbles causing problems is a myth, but if it's the aesthetic issue that you're worried about, give it a little time and it will lessen. It looks like you have your screen extended down below the light, correct? It looks like it dips into the water, but it's hard to tell from your pics. If it is a persistent problem, add some up/downs.
 
Yes, the screen goes down into the water about an 1", the bubble's are coming more from the water coming out of the over flows not the ATS, the socks used to take care of that but without them the flow goes directly into the sump and it's causing the micro bubble's.
 
Oh, so you feed the screen with a separate pump then?

I take it that you removed the filter socks to make room for the scrubber then? If you could take some more pictures, closeups of the overflow input to your sump, etc, I might be able to suggest something (if you're looking for suggestions, that is)
 
Here is a picture of how the over flows feed into my sump, I have very limited space so yes the socks were removed to make room for the ATS

DSC06331.jpg
 
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