Algae Scrubber Basics

[Enjoy]

I would say that if you're only running a system with 40g of water, then leave it alone. The lights are fine, matched to the tank volume, and the only real concern is the flow rate. It would be better to just feed from your sump intake vs off the return line.

I would say that you over-cleaned it, but it's not that big of a deal. You have to scrub pretty hard to get all the slime coat off from that first week, you can see after cleaning that it was still brownish, so you're OK. Just take it easy on the next couple cleanings.

You're right about the diatom algae. Diatoms will always grow on the screen, simply because they are the fastest growing. When I clean my screens, I rinse that all away and keep the green hair and dry it out and use as plant fertilizer.

I wish I could run the ATS off of my drain line, but it is not an option. The ATS is sitting at the same hieght or actually a little above my tank. I have no extra room under the tank as it currently is.
I will keep the "over-cleaning" in mind for the next few weeks, and make sure not to remove too much per cleaning. I will update in this thread.

Would it hurt to add more light once I increase the flow? I plan to replace my return pump anyways, so once there is proper flow I was thinking of adding another 23w CFL per side using a splitter like this. I am assuming this will improve the preformance of the ATS?

 

[pskelton]

That's funny. I wondered where my wife got those! Thanks for the link!

What is your P reading at? If it's zero, then you're P limited and N uptake will slow, and you may have to add P to the system to get the N down.

Would you say that your algae is black and more like a slime coating the screen, or is it just very dark green or dark brown and stringy?

I dont have a P test kit I am going to have to get one. My algae growth on rocks is verry little witch has seamed strange to me. I think you may be onto something in reguards to the low P. How do you dose P

 

[dogstar74]

I am definately not flow limited in my application. I noticed 1-2 months after I've placed my ATS online, my display algae is completely Gone! Yeah!

But my algal mat on my scrubber is pathetic. Thin, brown, only a spotting of deep green algae that doesn't reach any appreciable thickness is visable.

My Display has a huge Cyano outbreak!

Since Cyano is Nitrate dependant, and not phos dependant, I surmise that I have a high nitrate Ultra Low Phosphate system going.

I am thinking of bringing a sulfur denitrator online to aid in NO3 disposal.

Would you agree? Would the solution be to dose a little phos to bring the NO3 reduction back online? Would this thicken up my screen algae?

Thanks,
Aaron

 

[pskelton]

Same deal here, bad Cyano but not a lot of algae.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I looked back at your design. Are you still running the one with 3 lights and 2 screens? If so, here's my take:

1) get your water tested with reliable N and P kits.

2) your lights are probably too close. You are likely seeing the effects of photo-inhibition or chlorophyll bleaching. IMO, you really only need one screen in the middle of the 2 outer lamps, and each lamp should only need to be 11W with a good reflector.

3) cyano makes it's own nitrate, which is why it is so hard to get rid of. A strong scrubber will eventually out-compete it over time. So you need to modify your scrubber and get it working right.

 

[srusso]

I wish I could run the ATS off of my drain line, but it is not an option. The ATS is sitting at the same hieght or actually a little above my tank. I have no extra room under the tank as it currently is.
I will keep the "over-cleaning" in mind for the next few weeks, and make sure not to remove too much per cleaning. I will update in this thread.

Would it hurt to add more light once I increase the flow? I plan to replace my return pump anyways, so once there is proper flow I was thinking of adding another 23w CFL per side using a splitter like this. I am assuming this will improve the preformance of the ATS?

That splitter will work well, mostly because it will help spread the light a little more evenly. Nice find!!

 

[dogstar74]

I looked back at your design. Are you still running the one with 3 lights and 2 screens? If so, here's my take:

1) get your water tested with reliable N and P kits.

2) your lights are probably too close. You are likely seeing the effects of photo-inhibition or chlorophyll bleaching. IMO, you really only need one screen in the middle of the 2 outer lamps, and each lamp should only need to be 11W with a good reflector.

3) cyano makes it's own nitrate, which is why it is so hard to get rid of. A strong scrubber will eventually out-compete it over time. So you need to modify your scrubber and get it working right.

Thanks Floyd,

I have modified the design. I took out the central bulb, and used a single screen instead. (Still oversized by twice the volume) And this moved the screen back from the bulbs. I believe it's built right.

Phos tests are absolute crap at the levels we're concerned with. You really need a digital meter. That isn't something I'm willing to invest in at the moment. I'm useing deductive reasoning about the Cyano.

I feel like Cyano is more dependant on the NO3 level than the PHos level for growth. It can even fix it from the air if need be. So I'm pretty sure the PHos is low due to low screen growth and low DT algal growth.

I believe my NO3 is high however fueling a Cyano bloom.

This can be remedied by a number of ways.
1. Dosing MB7 bacteria to out-compete the Cyano for finite nutrients.
2. Start a Sulfur denitrator or similar device to focus on Nitrate removal.
3. Dose Phos to increase algal mat growth on the Screen to help bring down Nitrate levels.

1. I could do this, and help re-establish a higher population of beneficial bacteria. Cons include sourcing the MB7 and Cost.

2. I don't want another gadget hanging around my display. This is only a 10 gallon tank for crying out loud. With and ATS, and ATO I don't want another canister reactor detracting from the view.

3. UPS grade phos should be available at local nurseries for plant fertilization. I'll have to check. But would probably be much cheaper than dosing MB7 with shipping costs.

Discuss...

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I would do #3 if you're sure that you have high N. I'm not familiar with MB7, but my gut tells me that since you're running a scrubber, if your P is zero, then you're P limited. The fix is to dose P.

My tank is N limited. P hits a floor between 0.09 and 0.15 and has never broken through it. When I moved everything and the scrubber wasn't running for a week, it went up to 0.63, 1 week after firing up the scrubber is was down to 0.13 and it stays there, exactly the same as before. I got some Calcium Nitrate the other day and we'll see what happens...

 

[srusso]

Question,
I just cleaned my screen for the 6th time. I have been scraping the algae with a kitchen stoneware scraper. (Looks a lot like Floyd's Scraper). My nitrate has been in the solid 50 60 range for the last 3 cleanings. In the first three weeks of operation nitrate dropped from 150 down to where it is now. The algae is very dark with very little hair algae mixed in. I had been seeing an increase in algae cleaning to cleaning but my last cleaning (Palm sized hand full) Is the same amount as the previous week.

Using the above described tool do you think I am scraping to much? Should I just brush the algae with my fingernails so as not to remove most of it or should I just keep scraping the screen with my tool. You can see a picture of the scraper I am using in the link below.

https://www.pamperedchef.com/ordering/prod_details.tpc?prodId=241&catId=9&parentCatId=9&outletSubCat

you can over clean, it doesn't affect the functioning of your scrubber too much IMHO, it can slow total harvest amont.

I feel this issue maybe from a BSD or something producing nitrates much like "old tank syndrome" or old bio balls. Your algae scrubber will overcome this if built well, (although I have no evidence to prove this) and in theory the source of the nitrates will have to be depleted overtime.

It may help to reduce feedings for a week and post your harvest and test results again.

 

[pskelton]

I will do that. The fact is my tank look way better than it did a few weeks ago . I will post some pictures of my harvest next week.

 

[jrp1588]

What's wrong with running the scrubber off the return? I made the mistake of buying a return that was too much for my overflow when I first bought the tank. Since then I've had it dialed back with a ball valve. I was thinking of building a system like this.

I can't put it on the inlet side of the sump because there is a big ol' SWC160 skimmer in the way. Though, I guess with my auto-topoff, I could put the skimmer in the other section.

 

[scolley]

What's wrong with running the scrubber off the return? I made the mistake of buying a return that was too much...

I could not agree with that question more. Though I did not make a "mistake" of buying too large a return, I deliberately went to the not insignificant expense (and a stupid amount of trouble due to space constraints!) to upgrade to a larger return specifically to provide the additional flow needed to support my ATS.

A watt is a watt is a watt. All things being equal... X gph from one pump is the same a X gph from another. If there's a good reason why it matters where this flow comes from, I'm all ears.

PS- not trying to pick a fight here. But I recognize that this tread was founded on the recognition of what worked over time. If we are going to make this thread REALLY valuable, we'll step beyond rote repetition of successful formulas, and begin to dig into which parts are essential to success, and which parts are just repeating what's gone before. That's why I'm playing with LEDs and a single sided turf too.

 

[dogstar74]

Scolley you rebel:lmao:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OYecfV3ubP8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It goes without saying that more research needs to be done. I for one haven't seen the kind of growth that others have had, even though I've followed the recommendations. So what's the problem? Nothing I guess, I have no HA in the display. But my screen doesn't look anything like Floyd's or Srusso's. I'm not upset, just wonder why. It leads me to think that other considerations have yet to reveal themselves.

So you go on throwing your hammer man! :dance:

Aaron

 

[scott26]

I have had my ATS running for almost 2 months now and the screen is maturing and getting more algae growth on it.

Current sump picture:

Now my algae on the screen has been growing more now that I have taken the GFO offline but it is still darker and is not green more of a brown algae. I have been cleaning one side of the screen every 4 days. After last night I got about 1/2 cup of growth off of the one side that I did clean. Any ideas to get the algae to get greener? or is it just still maturing?

 

[scott26]

Oh and my mangroves are still going strong they have actually starting to sprout new leaves!

 

[pskelton]

Question,
I just cleaned my screen for the 6th time. I have been scraping the algae with a kitchen stoneware scraper. (Looks a lot like Floyd's Scraper). My nitrate has been in the solid 50 60 range for the last 3 cleanings. In the first three weeks of operation nitrate dropped from 150 down to where it is now. The algae is very dark with very little hair algae mixed in. I had been seeing an increase in algae cleaning to cleaning but my last cleaning (Palm sized hand full) Is the same amount as the previous week.

Using the above described tool do you think I am scraping to much? Should I just brush the algae with my fingernails so as not to remove most of it or should I just keep scraping the screen with my tool. You can see a picture of the scraper I am using in the link below.

https://www.pamperedchef.com/ordering/prod_details.tpc?prodId=241&catId=9&parentCatId=9&outletSubCat

Please see pics, This is not my scrubbber but the algae looks the same. The only diference is I have about 3/4 of that much algae after 7 days. Screen is 10x10 inch with 23 wall CFL flood on each side. I can post acutal pictures next week when I clean it agian.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

pskelton: You may still have very high nutrient system. The fact that is pulled N down from 150 to 50 and then stopped tells me that 1) P limited (discussed) 2) nitrate leeching from somewhere (discussed by srusso). It could be both. The dark growth sounds like high nutrients, if that's the case, you should clean the screen more often (3-4 days) because the really dark/black stuff blocks lights to the lower layers and causes detachment from the screen. If it is dark brown with some green, then let it grow longer (7 days).

If you're not sure which you're getting, then I would suggest alternating cleaning sides one every 3 or 4 days so that you get a full week of growth on each side while letting light get to the 'roots' via the other side for the latter half of the week. This will help to avoid detachment.

Leeching P or N out of rocks/DSB/etc can take months, depending on porosity and time spent in high levels, as well as flow rate in the tank.

 

[pskelton]

How do you dose P?

 

[srusso]

I could not agree with that question more. Though I did not make a "mistake" of buying too large a return, I deliberately went to the not insignificant expense (and a stupid amount of trouble due to space constraints!) to upgrade to a larger return specifically to provide the additional flow needed to support my ATS.

A watt is a watt is a watt. All things being equal... X gph from one pump is the same a X gph from another. If there's a good reason why it matters where this flow comes from, I'm all ears.

PS- not trying to pick a fight here. But I recognize that this tread was founded on the recognition of what worked over time. If we are going to make this thread REALLY valuable, we'll step beyond rote repetition of successful formulas, and begin to dig into which parts are essential to success, and which parts are just repeating what's gone before. That's why I'm playing with LEDs and a single sided turf too.

You are right, there is nothing wrong with running the scrubber from your return pump. I will speak for Floyd and I when I say this, we where trying to save the guy some money... He mentioned he was going to buy a larger pump... right? :spin2:
What we are saying is, why go bigger when you can go cheaper...? LOL

I think he explained later that he couldn't do that and that fine...

Now to bring more theory into the mix... (I have no scientific evidence to support this but...) again in theory, if you look at the overflow as "dirty water" and your return as clean... it makes sense right? Its the reason you put filter socks as the first line in a traditional sump setup. Just like an a sock, an algae scrubber will trap particulates in the algae b/c it is sticky. However in no way I am saying that it will trap it as well as a filter sock does... just that it will.

 

[srusso]

I have had my ATS running for almost 2 months now and the screen is maturing and getting more algae growth on it.

Current sump picture:

Now my algae on the screen has been growing more now that I have taken the GFO offline but it is still darker and is not green more of a brown algae. I have been cleaning one side of the screen every 4 days. After last night I got about 1/2 cup of growth off of the one side that I did clean. Any ideas to get the algae to get greener? or is it just still maturing?

It can be still maturing, an over-sized scrubber will take much longer to mature. (I learned that first hand) One additional thing I can note here is that an over-sized scrubber will have much more clearly defined growth stages.

stick with it, but in the end you may need a bit more light.

I'd say about 2 months is ripe for the next stage, of growth. Little "dumps" of a spongy type of algae should start growing. (Its normally a darker green, with lighter colored patches)