Algae Scrubber Basics
- Thread starter srusso
- Start date
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
you cant go by lumen per gallon if you are trying to compare LEDs to CFL's. Lumens are also not a good measurement because its a measurement based of the human eye. I think what you will want to know is the radiant flux more than lumens.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
If you're trying LED I strongly suggest reading Rygh's thread on the algae scrubber site. Look under "Designs" then "Version 3 ATS : Vertical, LED, bigger"
Do not dim CFL. The power line drop off like crazy when you dim. You want full power, all the time. Bottom line. There is no benefit to less light, unless you already have too much light. The only time when dimming really matter is with LED, IMO, and that's because there is not enough real-world data to determine what the 'sweet spot' is, both in combination with color matching and intensity. Again, read Rygh's build thread(s). He has gone through several iterations of LED builds.
bk market: The problem you describe usually results from a crooked slot, so yes I would check your slot tube cut to make sure it is as perfectly straight as possible first, then check for even flow. Have you verified your flow rate?
Also, this problem is not the result of too much flow. With higher flow, the slot tube would fill up from the far end back to the beginning of the slot and since the slot is on the bottom of the tube, and gravity takes over. If your slot tube was straight you would not see that kind of distribution. However, with a brand new screen you will see a little of this. After a few days, the flow should even out as the screen slimes up.
I'm going to have to get on part 2 summary. Lots of good 'troubleshooting' things have been coming up.
Do not dim CFL. The power line drop off like crazy when you dim. You want full power, all the time. Bottom line. There is no benefit to less light, unless you already have too much light. The only time when dimming really matter is with LED, IMO, and that's because there is not enough real-world data to determine what the 'sweet spot' is, both in combination with color matching and intensity. Again, read Rygh's build thread(s). He has gone through several iterations of LED builds.
bk market: The problem you describe usually results from a crooked slot, so yes I would check your slot tube cut to make sure it is as perfectly straight as possible first, then check for even flow. Have you verified your flow rate?
Also, this problem is not the result of too much flow. With higher flow, the slot tube would fill up from the far end back to the beginning of the slot and since the slot is on the bottom of the tube, and gravity takes over. If your slot tube was straight you would not see that kind of distribution. However, with a brand new screen you will see a little of this. After a few days, the flow should even out as the screen slimes up.
I'm going to have to get on part 2 summary. Lots of good 'troubleshooting' things have been coming up.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Why would you want full power when you scrape your screen? There wouldnt be enough algae receptors to use the amount of photons hitting it? = wasted energy. I knowits better to have more than not enough, but i'm looking at an energy efficient measure here. Throwing 300-400w of light at some algae seems a bit wasteful when following the 1w per gallon rule considring the lack of algae on the screen at the present time.
Thank's Floyd
I've already built one scrubber, using LEDs, lighting only one side as an experiment. Mixture of whites, blues and reds. Good results, but the screen wasn't big enough for the tank. It was an experiment and now the V2 is built hopefully, will be successful
BluScrnOdeth said:
OK, need to look up the data for radiant flux for my LEDs (Cree XM-L and Luxeon Rebel, then do research on how that compares to CFL. Unless someone knows that already
Basically trying to ork out if I have enough light from the LEDs
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
I'm sure that the LEDs provide enough radiant flux, its just that its so intense in a small area. I was thinking of trying this myself because i'll have some RB and CW left over form my other builds and snag a few reds. So i was thinking that if you made a difuser plate out of acrylic (sake some fine 800grit+ sand paper and just rough up one side, ut that between the LED and the screen, and see if that would help any with providing an even dispursement. Then of course you would have to measure how much light is lost when transfering through that plate. May have to just stick the LEDs about a foot away lol, i donno yet.
I'll put up some pics of my setup. Currently, not using optics and losing a lot of light top, bottom and sides. Am going to put some reflector material to stop the light escaping. LEDs are about 5cm from the screen, with 5mm clear acrylic protecting them from the water.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Rygh's thread covers diffusion pretty well. He uses a diamond diffuser (like what is used on a recessed 2x4 light fixture or a surface mounted fixture with a wraparound lens). I would think that roughing up acrylic would probably work also, but you might lose more light from reflection or absorption rather than diffusion.
Don't use CWs or RBs. Wrong spectrum. Warm white only if nothing else. Preferrably you want Deep Reds, Reds, and Blues. Rygh's work has shown that Deep Reds and Blues with WW in a 2:1:1 ratio is yielding the best results. The DRs and Bs are 5W LEDs from LEDengin and the WWs are Cree I think.
Don't use CWs or RBs. Wrong spectrum. Warm white only if nothing else. Preferrably you want Deep Reds, Reds, and Blues. Rygh's work has shown that Deep Reds and Blues with WW in a 2:1:1 ratio is yielding the best results. The DRs and Bs are 5W LEDs from LEDengin and the WWs are Cree I think.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Way too close without diffusion. You are going to get very spotty growth. You want the light to spread & blend, so don't add optics, you don't want them. I would add a cheap piece of diamond diffusion plate, should be able to find it at Home Depot. Ask for where they keep the 2x4 lenses for recessed light fixtures (the "troffers" that you see in open office spaces). You will also find egg crate right next to it.
Travis1787
Active member
I gotta question for ya... I have the option of running my feed line for my ats from my return of my chiller now would this line be ok to use or would it hurt the alage when the chill kicked on and the cold water ran down the screen?
Travis1787
Active member
Eh darn the chiller output into the sump only seems to be at 240 gph my screen will be 10 wide 16 long so id need more towrds 350 gph
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Photosynthesis works best in the reds and blues, so how can RB be the wrong spectrum? i read that between 380-470and 600-720 were best. Maybe it's based off the type of algae we are actually growing? I'll have to read that guys thread that you posted this weekend once this funeral and stuff is out of the way.
Also with the acrylic i was talking about blends the light better than diamond diffuser, but yes, will absorb more light, how much depends on the design.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
You can get frosted acrylic or other types of polycarbonate sheets with a more 'bumpy' coating on one side also. I would just have to guess that frosted acrylic or sanded acrylic would tend to deflect more light more than a diamond diffuser would. Something without any opaque properties but with good light diffusing properties, that's what I would think would be the ideal.
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
Just for future reference, I will not post or respond to any post on this thread regarding the effects of algae scrubbers on water chemistry with respect to anything other than Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Phosphate.
It has become abundantly clear that inferring that algae has some kind of benefit other that reducing these nutrients is somehow fuel for a war against the algae scrubber system. It seems that any conversation that starts even closely down the path of discussing any benefits of an algae scrubber outside of the basics turns into one form of mudslinging or another, no matter how much an attempt is made to make a point as politically as possible.
I have to admit that I have a full time job, 4 kids, and 2 dogs, and now 3 tanks to take care of just in my house, so I just flat out do not have the time to dig up articles and have informed discussions with people about any of these topics, so even though I'm well educated and I for sure could do research and learn much of this information firsthand, I pretty much am forced to rely upon the research of others who like to dig up and compile this information so that I can reference their findings.
I personally feel uncomfortable answering questions this way, because I'm the type of person who likes to really explain how something works. In order to do that requires spending a lot of time digging and reading and I just don't have that. Apparently, relying on others to do this and referencing what they have found is just not good enough, no matter how much it proves the point to me.
So the bottom line here is that I have read everything I need to know to have confidence in the system to perform the basic functions of reducing Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Phosphate, and choking off algae in the display tank. I have confidence that it is capable of providing much more than that, but I will no longer address these potentials. Doing so otherwise seems to elevate conversations to the point where infraction points start getting issued and banning becomes a potential, neither of which I wish.
I also cannot reference that other site that has a ton of information on algae scrubbing, because Reef Central blocks the link. Working around a blocked link by putting spaces is considered an infraction offense, and therefore for the good of this or any other thread about the algae scrubber system, please do not attempt to do this or you will receive an infraction point if it is noticed (reported). As of this time, I have not received any kind of direction on an acceptable method of indirectly referencing someone to that site.
I wish to maintain good status with Reef Central. Therefore, since this device/system seems to be just too much of a hot button for some, I also will restrict all posting regarding the algae scrubber system to this thread, and only this thread, except when referring someone to this thread, and I will restrict my posts to the proper building and design of an algae scrubber.
I will not restrict my opinion in any way that an Algae Scrubber is totally awesome at reducing Nitrates and Phosphates, and it eats Ammonia and Nitrite and your DT algae for freakin breafast man. FOR FREAKIN BREAKFAST.
Because really, that's all the average aquarist really cares about. And I'm here to help those people out.
Here is a except from a recent interview:
That's humor by the way, for anyone without a funny bone.
It has become abundantly clear that inferring that algae has some kind of benefit other that reducing these nutrients is somehow fuel for a war against the algae scrubber system. It seems that any conversation that starts even closely down the path of discussing any benefits of an algae scrubber outside of the basics turns into one form of mudslinging or another, no matter how much an attempt is made to make a point as politically as possible.
I have to admit that I have a full time job, 4 kids, and 2 dogs, and now 3 tanks to take care of just in my house, so I just flat out do not have the time to dig up articles and have informed discussions with people about any of these topics, so even though I'm well educated and I for sure could do research and learn much of this information firsthand, I pretty much am forced to rely upon the research of others who like to dig up and compile this information so that I can reference their findings.
I personally feel uncomfortable answering questions this way, because I'm the type of person who likes to really explain how something works. In order to do that requires spending a lot of time digging and reading and I just don't have that. Apparently, relying on others to do this and referencing what they have found is just not good enough, no matter how much it proves the point to me.
So the bottom line here is that I have read everything I need to know to have confidence in the system to perform the basic functions of reducing Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Phosphate, and choking off algae in the display tank. I have confidence that it is capable of providing much more than that, but I will no longer address these potentials. Doing so otherwise seems to elevate conversations to the point where infraction points start getting issued and banning becomes a potential, neither of which I wish.
I also cannot reference that other site that has a ton of information on algae scrubbing, because Reef Central blocks the link. Working around a blocked link by putting spaces is considered an infraction offense, and therefore for the good of this or any other thread about the algae scrubber system, please do not attempt to do this or you will receive an infraction point if it is noticed (reported). As of this time, I have not received any kind of direction on an acceptable method of indirectly referencing someone to that site.
I wish to maintain good status with Reef Central. Therefore, since this device/system seems to be just too much of a hot button for some, I also will restrict all posting regarding the algae scrubber system to this thread, and only this thread, except when referring someone to this thread, and I will restrict my posts to the proper building and design of an algae scrubber.
I will not restrict my opinion in any way that an Algae Scrubber is totally awesome at reducing Nitrates and Phosphates, and it eats Ammonia and Nitrite and your DT algae for freakin breafast man. FOR FREAKIN BREAKFAST.
Because really, that's all the average aquarist really cares about. And I'm here to help those people out.
Here is a except from a recent interview:
That's humor by the way, for anyone without a funny bone.
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
Sorry Turbo, I was thinking something completely different when you said the diamond diffuser. I think your right that it would be best.
srusso
Active member
I can't believe yet another algae scrubber thread forcefully closed. The topic was started with direct questions on how, what, why, and is it ok to... It quickly turns into a flame war! I don't blame the MOD for closing it, however this same moderator removed the following from my signature...
"Just an Algae Scrubber... Interested? {link to this thread}"
I was PM'ed and was told my signature violated terms...
For URL... It's a RC thread....
I now too fear being ban from RC for no real reason.
If I did violate terms, the URL is the ONLY portion of my signature that should have been removed... But it wasn't...
If you are new to building and keeping an algae scrubber I hope this thread has helped. It's amazingly the only helpful thread on RC covering the algae scrubber, every other has ended with, false, angry and truly outrageous accusations.
It amazes me that I even managed to get this thread started and stuck to began with... That being said...
I want to say a few thank you's
1) thank you Larry for working with me, and sticking this thread.
2) thank you to Floyd, for helping maintain this thread, for always giving good, sound advise well beyond my own knowledge of reef keeping, algae scrubbers and water chemistry. In you I have found a very good friend.
3) thank you to all for keeping the this thread clean of arguments.
4) thank you, to others that have also helped maintain this thread. You know who you are...
5) thank you to Santa Monica for all the hard work you have done in gathering and freely sharing this information that we all use to make our scrubbers. You are the most misunderstood user to ever grace RC's boards.
"Just an Algae Scrubber... Interested? {link to this thread}"
I was PM'ed and was told my signature violated terms...
For URL... It's a RC thread....
I now too fear being ban from RC for no real reason.
If I did violate terms, the URL is the ONLY portion of my signature that should have been removed... But it wasn't...
If you are new to building and keeping an algae scrubber I hope this thread has helped. It's amazingly the only helpful thread on RC covering the algae scrubber, every other has ended with, false, angry and truly outrageous accusations.
It amazes me that I even managed to get this thread started and stuck to began with... That being said...
I want to say a few thank you's
1) thank you Larry for working with me, and sticking this thread.
2) thank you to Floyd, for helping maintain this thread, for always giving good, sound advise well beyond my own knowledge of reef keeping, algae scrubbers and water chemistry. In you I have found a very good friend.
3) thank you to all for keeping the this thread clean of arguments.
4) thank you, to others that have also helped maintain this thread. You know who you are...
5) thank you to Santa Monica for all the hard work you have done in gathering and freely sharing this information that we all use to make our scrubbers. You are the most misunderstood user to ever grace RC's boards.
srusso
Active member
To all new users researching and considering building an algae scrubber...
Seemingly more important than how to build, how to maintain, or how to troubleshoot an algae scrubber is to understand there is a strong stigma and resistance from people who do not want the algae scrubber to become mainstream. It seems odd, I know... Their motives are unclear... One can stipulate forever as to why this is, but in the end you will notice this force a formidable one. The very act of suggesting an algae scrubber to someone having trouble with their tank will and has in the past been met with unwarranted anger, insults and claims of attempting to manipulate your findings to seem better than they actually are...
I ask you to do one thing, defend the algae scrubber with the facts, never resort to name calling, even if its all you get back. Once you have completed your research, built your own system, worked through any problems, and are enjoying the benefits of running one of these "magical" :lolspin: (sorry Bud, I had too) filters. You will feel the need to pay it forward, do so with respect.
Seemingly more important than how to build, how to maintain, or how to troubleshoot an algae scrubber is to understand there is a strong stigma and resistance from people who do not want the algae scrubber to become mainstream. It seems odd, I know... Their motives are unclear... One can stipulate forever as to why this is, but in the end you will notice this force a formidable one. The very act of suggesting an algae scrubber to someone having trouble with their tank will and has in the past been met with unwarranted anger, insults and claims of attempting to manipulate your findings to seem better than they actually are...
I ask you to do one thing, defend the algae scrubber with the facts, never resort to name calling, even if its all you get back. Once you have completed your research, built your own system, worked through any problems, and are enjoying the benefits of running one of these "magical" :lolspin: (sorry Bud, I had too) filters. You will feel the need to pay it forward, do so with respect.
@Floyd R Turbo and @srusso:
It kind of sounds like you're washing your hands of this which I hope is not the case. Although, I read through where you coming from. This thread started at the perfect time for me and was/is a great help. I've tried to contribute, admittedly not always the most accurate info, but I have definitely learned a lot more from the both of you. I hope this thread continues and continues to be a safe zone to help those with the basics for their algae scrubber. Thank you both and the others who maintain this thread.
It kind of sounds like you're washing your hands of this which I hope is not the case. Although, I read through where you coming from. This thread started at the perfect time for me and was/is a great help. I've tried to contribute, admittedly not always the most accurate info, but I have definitely learned a lot more from the both of you. I hope this thread continues and continues to be a safe zone to help those with the basics for their algae scrubber. Thank you both and the others who maintain this thread.
redneckgearhead
Active member
I just do not understand why people get so upset about this issue.
Travis1787
Active member
Wow .... crazy well this thread helped me out so so so much I will soon have an up and running ats thanks to this thread so do not feel this thread got no where it helped me and many other understand how this works and how to diy and if ya ask me the proof is in the pudding with these ats so ill continue to post if this is open if not thanks a ton
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