Algae Scrubber Basics

[Floyd R Turbo]

...or the extra benefit over a traditional fuge.

I can address this one. At worst, an ATS is superior to a refugium (growing algae for the purposes of nutrient export) because

1) you can position the light source much closer. Light intensity is a function of the inverse square of the distance. If you are 2x as far away, your light drops off by a factor of 4.

2) In a fuge, light cannot easily penetrate through to the deeper layers due to the growth nearest the light source blocking the light (needing to rotate a ball of chaeto comes to mind)

3) you can achieve much higher flow rate over a larger area, namely at the boundary layer where the actual nutrient exchange happens. This is why a thin sheet of fast moving water across a vertical screen works better than a pool of moving water, unless it's moving really, really fast all around.

4) you have to periodically trim whatever is growing in the fuge. You have to periodically remove the algae from the screen. Not much different here.

5) there are types of macro in refugia that can 'go sexual', and from what I remember, this can cause some serious problems. I have yet to hear of anyone having their algae scrubber algae 'go sexual'.

Those are the main ones off the top of my head. When I first started looking at the ATS, I was going to do a refugium for the purposes of nutrient export, mainly phosphate, which kept climbing up no matter what I did. I came to the conclusion that at its most basic form, an algae scrubber is indeed a super-concentrated refugium. If you consider nothing else but the items above, I have a hard time seeing how you could not arrive at this conclusion. There are many examples where people have run an algae scrubber and their refugium gets out-competed by it quickly.

I hope that's at least one thing I can say about an algae scrubber that won't get criticized as not presenting indisputable scientific evidence. I just can't understand how you could be pro-refugium and against the algae scrubber, because like I said, that's what it is at it's core.

Disadvantages? The main one I can think of is the extended power outage. But you would need one more than 6 hours to really start to do any damage to the algae, while macro in a refugium would likely be OK. By this time, you'll start losing fish and coral in any system, so you'd have bigger problems no matter what. If it lasted longer than 6 hours and you weren't there, when the power kicked on you could start to get algae detaching from the screen and getting back into the system, but for the entire screen to die off and require a start from zero it would need to really, really dry out, and you would have a tank full of dead fish and corals by then, unless you had a battery powered air pump that lasted a very long time.

 

[Snookster]

10 weeks in. I haven't cleaned my glass in a week. Cyano has gone 99% bye-bye.

All that's left is bryopsis :headwalls:. Plucking twice a week to make it work hard. I highly suspect the rock (only grows in certain spots), since my ATS growth rate appears to have actually dropped from the last few (less PO4 in water?). I expect my harvest this week to be a little less than last.

I'm sold so far...

 

[rcr]

Thanks Floyd for you time and help.

Robin

 

[travis32]

The main one I can think of is the extended power outage. But you would need one more than 6 hours to really start to do any damage to the algae, while macro in a refugium would likely be OK. By this time, you'll start losing fish and coral in any system, so you'd have bigger problems no matter what. If it lasted longer than 6 hours and you weren't there, when the power kicked on you could start to get algae detaching from the screen and getting back into the system,

Floyd, I respect everything you've said. However, the above statement is not 100% true..

I suppose there's some variables, size of tank, size of sump, type of sand bed in tank, how many fish, size of fish, how many corals, size of corals, and that's just to name a few varaibles.

With that said, I had my 125g last week, while I was out of town for a week, shut down due to power flickers, and a breaker being tripped for close to 24-36 hours.

The scrubber was offline, the Skimmer was off, the sump was shut down, the entire tank was literally shut down. Tank reached 71 degrees....

I lost 4-5 of my 8 fish due to lack of oxygen. I had someon checking the tank every other day. He arrived to the dead fish. He got all the fish out to stop any potential ammonia damage, flipped the breaker back on, and got the tank and scrubber back up and operational. there was some weird looking algae sitting in my enclosed scrubber box. I suppose that's the stuff that came off when it started up again... ...

However, Out of my close to $1,000 to $1,500 worth of corals, I lost 1 coral. I had 3 fish survive for sure, 1 is MIA, no corpse, no sign of him. A mystery wrasse.

The tank was overgrown with briopsis and hair algae. So, I'm here to say your 6 hour statement is not entirely true. I'm not sure what the scrubber went through, and I did definately have a build up of algae in the display. My anemone split, so I have to admit the tank conditions stressed the anemone, but both parts of it survived! My clams survived, and 99% of my corals survived. Along with the 3 fish.
And thankfully, if there was a slight ammonia spike, it was either very small or nonexistant...

24-36 hours of tank being offline, temps hitting a record low, and tank stationary with no water flow... 3 fish survived.... I agree, it's pretty amazing, but, the 6 hour estimate is waay waaay low...

I've also had the tank go offline for 12 hours, and I didn't lose a single fish or coral.. You'd be surprised how long life can survive and in what conditions!

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I'm not sure what you mean, but I think we're on the same page, not opposing.

I'm saying that a 6 hour power outage is what causes the algae screen to start to reach a critical drying point, and that at that point, you start to have problems larger than losing your algae screen - i.e. fish and corals dying. So I think your situation is a perfect example of how a power loss of greater than 6 hours wreaks havoc, no matter what system you have.

So...what part of that was conflicting with what you described?

 

[milkman55]

All that's left is bryopsis :headwalls:. Plucking twice a week to make it work hard. I highly suspect the rock (only grows in certain spots), since my ATS growth rate appears to have actually dropped from the last few (less PO4 in water?). I expect my harvest this week to be a little less than last.

I was in the same boat as you. Had both HA and bryopsis. Started my ATS about two months ago and the HA has gone away, replaced by thick screens of turf in my ATS. Glass and pump heads are staying clean.

To fix the bryopsis, which I have had for over 6 months, I did some research and found a lot of folks recommending Kent Tech M to raise mag level to about 1600. Apparently, some ingredient other than the mag tends to kill the bryopsis. I bought a gallon for my 200 gal system and started dosing 250 ml per day two weeks ago. Each dose raises my mag about 20 ppm. I started at 1300 about two weeks ago and now am about 1500. My tank was severly infected with bryosis in just about all the rock. It was a thick matt of dark green and growing quickly. It now is about half gone and what's left is brown and slowly dissappearing. Before, I could not even knock it off with a brush and now it dissolves if I hit it with a brush.

Hopefully, I am about to regain a clean display.

 

[travis32]

I'm saying that a 6 hour power outage

That's the part that I think is little off. I've gone 12 hours with no power and no damage- 0 dmage to screen or fish or corals.

So I think the 6 hour mike is up in the air. Yes Damage could start then depending on the setup, but I think the tolerance point is closer to 10 - 15 hours when massive damage can start happening to both the screen and tank. 6 hours is a conservative number just in my experience and opinion. I agree with everything else.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh, now I gotcha. My figure of 6 hours was really talking about damage to the algae screen mainly, but from what I've read from others, a 6 hour outage can really take it's toll and yes it is based on bio-load and other factors that have to do with depletion of O2 out of the water column, so I can see how in some cases 10-15 hours could be sustainable.

Getting back to the screen however, in a situation where the power is out (no flow to screen, no lights) the algae will stay alive and should be OK for about 6 hours. I don't know that there have been tests done to determine this however, but I know that people have had outages lasting this long and the screen survived. The algae on deeper layers is protected from drying out. I guess it would also depend on how thick your screen was at the time of the outage and when you cleaned it last too. If you happened to be there for the outage, cleaning the screen before starting the system back up would be a good idea. The longer strands of algae on the outside would dry and lose attachment strength and then might detach when the power came back on, which sounds like what happened to you travis.

PS you should probably clean your pump, if you haven't already.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Scrubber update

Scrubber update

So I finally got my scrubber re-installed on the temporary tank on Monday 5/23 as previously posted:

And a couple of days ago I did another 'ghetto mod', I took the inside box out, flipped one of the drains so it's higher on the inside, and removed the other one to reduce the toilet-drain noise (since I can't easily over the box). To protect from salt creep or water leaking, I cut a 1 liter pop bottle to fit in around the drain.

Then to help reduce microbubbles I cut up a 2 liter pop bottle and wedged it in below that

This looks completely ugly but my goal was to reduce the bubbles and get the nose down. I added more water to reduce the cavitation from the water dropping 4" and that helped greatly. Still don't have the tank 100% full but I'm working on it, monitoring the seals with each 5g add...so far, it's good.

The great news? Here's my testing log:

5/22 (no scrubber) N=2.5, P=0.49
5/24 (scrubber 1 full day) N=5.0, P=.39
5/28 (today) N=2.5, P=0.16

Growth is a deep green and the bottom is filling in. The tall drain just started flowing with a trickle today, 99% still out of the bottom corner drain.

My plan is to finish filling the tank, then see how the noise is, and eventually make a better bubble trap, maybe using some bio-balls to break up the impact of the water dropping.

Being my first top-of-tank scrubber, I'm definitely learning a few things...

 

[jjmill1980]

I am currently working on setting up a 56 gallon column with a 16 gallon sump. I have planned out the sump to utilize all of the euqipment I have available and would like to get some feedback as to wether or not I am going over board.

Here is the design:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hqlFm5_HNUCipJM07LTWMXEHSAFkdYM_Rhf0UnVONWY?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QXsqmIpqfIY/Td7W_GYHNYI/AAAAAAAAALg/xHcoi5OPNss/s800/Sump%252520Layout.jpg" height="611" width="800" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/104588367590059570910/SumpPics?authkey=Gv1sRgCISYzemxjZaG8AE&feat=embedwebsite">Sump Pics</a></td></tr></table>

With the flow for the ATS coming from the reactor and sterilizer will I still see results from the ATS?

 

[srusso]

I got a ton more flow from my pump by making this little addition...

Pump is a Mag 7,
Outlet of the pump is 1/2"
Then 1/2" - 3/4" reducer
Then a 3/4" - 1" reducer
About a foot of 1" PVC
A 1" 45 elbow
Then back down to 3/4"
Then nylon 3/4" to tank return.

Wow what a difference!!
This may have solved my flow issue!!
Same old pump!

I didn't measure flow b/c I am lazy but I can see the difference!!

The flow out of the return is less pressure but I can tell it's a lot of flow.

 

[jtgordon20]

I'm looking to possibly starting up an ATS on my tank. Loved looking through this thread and seeing all the builds and pictures of others set up and reading a bit, definitely not all of it, yet.
I'm probably going to start out with a bucket setup so I don't have to redo my sump, and depending on how great it goes, maybe changing my sump so I can put the ATS underneath.
Its going to be for a 22G DT tank with a 20H sump.
Wish there was more bucket ATS pictures and builds.

Can't wait till I start.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Hints for the buckets build, for the bulkhead at the bottom, use a uniseal instead of a standard bulkhead. Look up the video demo on bulk reef supply's site, they install one in a 5g bucket and it's perfect - works on just about any bucket.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I got a ton more flow from my pump by making this little addition...

Pump is a Mag 7,
Outlet of the pump is 1/2"
Then 1/2" - 3/4" reducer
Then a 3/4" - 1" reducer
About a foot of 1" PVC
A 1" 45 elbow
Then back down to 3/4"
Then nylon 3/4" to tank return.

Wow what a difference!!
This may have solved my flow issue!!
Same old pump!

I didn't measure flow b/c I am lazy but I can see the difference!!

The flow out of the return is less pressure but I can tell it's a lot of flow.

Yes it appears that you can increase the flow quite a bit just by expanding the return piping to 2x the outlet size for the first couple feet on the Mag (Danner) pumps. I got a similar result on a Mag 12, I had to reduce down to 3/4" for the bulkhead and then went back up again after, then back down to go through the overflow wall, but it still almost doubled the flow going to 1.25" ID flex hose from 3/4" ID all the way.

If you talk to any fluid dynamics person you would probably hear something about flow restriction immediately after the impeller causing some kind of backpressure effect close to the impeller, and moving the flow restriction down the line relieves this enough so that you get a better momentum of flow that is not impeded as much. At least, that's what I can deduce based on observation.

Any fluid dynamics experts out there that can explain or verify this?

 

[emumcard]

hey guys, so I've had my scrubber setup for about a month. It's completely covered in diatoms, but I don't see any trace of turf algae...is there something i can do about this? Or is normal? thanks.

 

[srusso]

hey guys, so I've had my scrubber setup for about a month. It's completely covered in diatoms, but I don't see any trace of turf algae...is there something i can do about this? Or is normal? thanks.

Yes, this is very normal.

If possible please post pictures, scrubber and tank specs. Thanks

 

[rcr]

I know the answer to this question is some were on the thread but I can't find it. If I use 4' T8s how far should the light be from the screen?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

About 2", maybe 3".

 

[rcr]

Thanks Floyd

 

[travis32]

So, any idea on how to fight briopsis? I have reduced my bioload from 8 larger fish to 3 small fish... Cleaner wrasse, starry blenny, and a Sleeper goby (largest of the 3.)

I'm feeding flake for the moment, but, not sure how much to feed since none are agressive eaters.. How do I fight briopsis with this limited bioload and the ATS and skimmer going and more macro algae in my display than I can shake a stick at?

I've gone through and pulled a ton of briopsis and some patches of hair algae.. Was enough to form about a 1/2" - 1" layer in the bottom of a gallon bucket. And there's still a lot I couldn't get to or wouldn't detach very easily. And it just keeps growing in despite the skimmer, ATS, and reduced bioload. I'm tired of fighting this battle. My SPS keep getting overgrown with the stuff and I have a tough time keeping them clean so they can get enough light to grow...

I've heard rumors that the use of Kalkwater may be a huge contributer to briopsis / hair algae. As much or moreso than food and/or leaching rock...

I'm open to suggestions of what else to do. And I'll admit most of my screen probably died in the 24-36 hour power outtage, and it was a fairly new screen as well.