Algae Scrubber Basics

[Brian01]

As far as your lessons learned, very good obervations. A few comments:

1) flow - this is really dependent on the overall system + scrubber. You can get away with lower flow in certain situations, it just becomes a limiting factor, and lighting should really be adjusted in concert

True you can make it work, many do, but I found that lower flow results in brown, slimy, poorly attached growth (and sloughing into the sump). Can you get well attached green with low flow? Maybe I just didn't play around enough.

4) I would amend this to say "if you overload with light, allow for dimming" and this is the latest thing that I have discovered really makes a big difference when it comes to LED lighting. You can knock down LED lights with diffuser and other techniques, but the best results seem to come from using a lot of LEDs to get good even coverage and then dimming them to match the system's needs. Initially the dimming being very low for the break-in stage, then ramping up as the screen matures and it can handle the incident light.

On the vertical/slanted single-sided setup, this might work for you but watch for signs of detachment. You might be surprised at how much more quickly this can happen simply be removing the light from the other side. Even adding a waterproof low-power SMD ribbon strip to the back side (if it's clear acrylic) might be enough to extend the growth period by several days, simply by supplying the shaded base of the screen with a little light.

The steeper the slant, the better, as you tend to get more water passing over the top of the growth substrate/screen the more horizontal you go.

the only other recommendation I would make is to ditch the Royal Blues and use Hyper Violets instead (semiLEDs from Steve's LEDs are my choice)

All good points, I will go pretty steep, I'm mostly trying to avoid splashing and dead zones from some big lump of algae blocking flow below it... And ease of cleaning, which I didn't mention in the first post, I didn't find hauling that vertical screen out to be much fun, I though something I could pull out flat might be easier? Or maybe I'll just go back to vertical, and put in a diffuser. So many choices, Ha!

Your point about the two sided light is one I've been thinking about a lot tho. Didn't think about detachment, I saw that with low flow but I guess I never had low light to worry about. Hmmm...


Has anyone ever tried a wavemaker style scrubber, reversing flow to keep the algae strands waving around and well mixed? Is that a crazy idea?? Getting back towards the chaeto ball idea maybe.

Thanks for the help!

 

[herring_fish]

Has anyone ever tried a wavemaker style scrubber, reversing flow to keep the algae strands waving around and well mixed? Is that a crazy idea??

No it is far from crazy.

Turbulence is part of a healthy scrubber. The inventor of the ATS did a lot of studying and found that adding turbulence led to 50% faster growth and less sloughing off of algae.
Unfortunately, dump buckets and other types of agitators are hard to build with enough punch to help. Often these designs also are only one sided so they need to be bigger.

 

[SantaMonica]

I wish this was more mainstream because I think it could help alot of people.

What you can do, is to start a scrubber topic in the general section of RC.

Some people are saying they are using it instead of a skimmer? Is this true?

Yes. Skimmers do not remove any nutrients. Scrubbers do.

What are the down sides of running a scrubber that is over sized?

Not a lot. Certainly no danger.

How about harvesting or trimming the algae mat once it gets too thick for the low power LEDs? Seems like a small effort vice upping to more powerful LEDs.

Opposite. The cleaning/harvesting is actually the main effort, because it's weekly X forever.

People talk about the stink of a scrubber

Only a waterfall or horizontal river scrubber, if the flow gets low. Never for an upflow scrubber.

I had a heck of a time keeping magnesium and iodine up

Iodine and iron, yes, but not usually mag.

Has anyone ever tried a wavemaker style scrubber

Many. Just a bit to complex. The upflowing air bubbles of an upflow design do simulate it, however.

 

[jason2459]

Do you sell plu and play lights for us technically challenged?

Or, maybe a simple to put together kit?

His entire kit is basically plug and play. It's been very easy to setup and maintain so far and includes everything needed to clean it. I just bumped up the intensity on one of the sides of my Turbo ATS last night with just moving a couple jumpers over. I'll see how that goes and then will increase the intensity of the lights on the other side.

 

[jason2459]

Second full cleaning and more algae growth. Doing great so far and loving it.

Been about another week and got time tonight to pull and scrub the screen. It seemed heavier and wish I would have been weighing it now. I'm just happy its producing and growing well bow. Even the false bottom was growing and covered in algae.

Front

Back

The bottom

I did bump up the light intensity on the front half and left the back at the lower power setting for this week. I hope I did it right. There's a little diagram as well showing the proper jumper positions. I didn't touch the middle one for the blues and the scotch tape is still there for diffusion. Just the four others.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

What you can do, is to start a scrubber topic in the general section of RC.

Skimmers do not remove any nutrients. Scrubbers do.

Why don't you start a thread in the general section with this topic and see how far that gets you.

:headwalls:

 

[jason2459]

Yes. Skimmers do not remove any nutrients. Scrubbers do.

.

What do they remove or what is your definition of nutrients? I believe they (ATS and Skimmer) complement each other quite well though. I haven't been running an ATS very long but my skimmer hasn't skipped a beat and still pulling out "crud", what ever it is, just as much as before. Plus it aerates the water quite well and working as a boost to my pH with out using chemicals in the water increasing my already highish alk levels.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Giving credit where credit is due. These aren't easy to obtain.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130233779

Clarification:

Go here

http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair

Select Publication Number and enter: 2013-0233779

Click on Image File Wrapper and first file seems to indicate to me that it's due to be issued in 2 weeks (8/25) unless I'm misinterpreting something

 

[jason2459]

Giving credit where credit is due. These aren't easy to obtain.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130233779

But that's just the application right? It's not granted.

I like the mass one that's cited. That's cool.
Mass algal culture system
US 4253271 A
http://www.google.com/patents/US4253271

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

edited my post above yours

 

[jason2459]

edited my post above yours

See it now. Congratulations to SantaMonica

 

[SantaMonica]

Thanks.

What do they remove or what is your definition of nutrients?

Nutrients for us are: Ammonia/ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Copper. These are absorbed directly by algae as the main food source, especially ammonia.

Skimmers do not absorb/remove any of those. Skimmers remove protein (food) particles, which of course is food for corals. Many people think that having a skimmer running is "safety" in case a fish dies, etc. Dangerous thinking, because the skimmer will do nothing. A scrubber however will burst into growth and absorb the ammonia.

Interestingly, most ammonia comes from just everyday feeding (pee from the fish), and not from things dying. This is why sparse but continuous feeding is better than once-a-day bulk feeding.

my skimmer hasn't skipped a beat and still pulling out "crud"

Yes that is a lot of coral food particles being pulled out.

 

[jason2459]

Thanks.



Nutrients for us are: Ammonia/ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Copper. These are absorbed directly by algae as the main food source, especially ammonia.

Skimmers do not absorb/remove any of those. Skimmers remove protein (food) particles, which of course is food for corals. Many people think that having a skimmer running is "safety" in case a fish dies, etc. Dangerous thinking, because the skimmer will do nothing. A scrubber however will burst into growth and absorb the ammonia.

Interestingly, most ammonia comes from just everyday feeding (pee from the fish), and not from things dying. This is why sparse but continuous feeding is better than once-a-day bulk feeding.



Yes that is a lot of coral food particles being pulled out.

My understanding is that skimmers are indiscriminate on what they remove and remove just about everything that will attach itself to the bubble which includes many inorganic compounds like calcium and organics like nitrogenous compounds (ie. nitrates, nitrites, ammonia nitrogen). Which also includes bacteria that is skimmed out that has consumed nitrates and phosphates. Which is another benefit of the skimmer to me as I do dose a carbon source to boost bacteria growth to maintain lower nitrates and phosphates. That bacteria growth also starts a baseline food chain in my tank feeding the corals, sponges, etc. There's plenty more fish poop and pee in my main display tank as well before it gets skimmed out. I feed a lot many times a day.

 

[hkgar]

My understanding is that skimmers are indiscriminate on what they remove and remove just about everything that will attach itself to the bubble which includes many inorganic compounds like calcium and organics like nitrogenous compounds (ie. nitrates, nitrites, ammonia nitrogen). Which also includes bacteria that is skimmed out that has consumed nitrates and phosphates. Which is another benefit of the skimmer to me as I do dose a carbon source to boost bacteria growth to maintain lower nitrates and phosphates. That bacteria growth also starts a baseline food chain in my tank feeding the corals, sponges, etc. There's plenty more fish poop and pee in my main distank as well before it gets skimmed out. I feed a lot many times a day.

Sounds like you are using a skimmer, carbon (vodka or vinegar?) dosing and an ATS to control PO4 and NO3, correct?

II ask because I toy with the idea of carbon dosing, but figured no reason because with my ATS and skimmer were sufficient, and they probably are - NO3 = 1.5 and PO4 .003. What would be an additional benefit of carbon dosing and would it really add bacteria with so little left over Nitrate to use?

 

[jason2459]

Sounds like you are using a skimmer, carbon (vodka or vinegar?) dosing and an ATS to control PO4 and NO3, correct?

II ask because I toy with the idea of carbon dosing, but figured no reason because with my ATS and skimmer were sufficient, and they probably are - NO3 = 1.5 and PO4 .003. What would be an additional benefit of carbon dosing and would it really add bacteria with so little left over Nitrate to use?

I've always been a fan of all of the above and compliment each other. I have been running for many years now a skimmer, algae harvesting of some kind, carbon dosing(vinegar), small frequent water changes (currently multiple times a day), and ozone.

I target higher values than you mentioned.

Nitrates under 10 (currently undetectable)
Phosphates under .09 (currently around .06)


I see the water change as a basis to help remove any built up untestable unknowns and help replenish the basic chemicals everything needs. Then lots of food and lime water to add anything else needed.

Carbon dosing I've really had the most success maintaining lower nitrates and phosphate levels. GFO to bring down high PO4 values. And extreme cases lanthanum cl. Then I also really like the acetate as a food that is taken up directly by some organisms including bacteria driving up their counts which in turn becomes more food for other organisms which in turn... etc

Ozone...ZAP. Basically says it all. I don't run it 24/7. Just a few hours a day nor anywhere near the full recommended dosage.

Skimmer to me is just simple cheap filtering. It's not very efficient as a mechanical filter compared to something like filter socks or floss or diatom filters etc. Which to me is perfect as I don't want 100% efficiency or anywhere near it. I want critters to live and thrive. It's commented here and there its only about 30% efficient. I also look to it to help remove excess bacteria, boost aeration, and now help drive up pH. Plus its my ozone reactor. Win win win win all around on my book. I see no reason for me to not run one.

As for the algae harvesting. I look to it to supplement nutrient export with the skimmer with out hindering my critters that other mechanical filters would remove. In fact I look at it as helping to increase the biodiversity and a vacation home for those critters and something else for some of them to eat. Plus helping to increase pH slightly. Plus what ever marketing benefits algae may have.

 

[scubasteve3]

What happens if you oversize your Algae Scrubber? Could this be detrimental to your tank? Do you recommend running both an ATS and a skimmer?

What size screen would you recommend for a 40g breeder with feeding 1 cube per day? If I double the size or light both sides, can I increase the cleaning from 7 days to 14 days

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

worst case, you will just have a bit of trouble getting growth to get thick and/or green. Sometimes if it is vastly oversized (and thus vastly underfed), you will have trouble getting any green at all. This usually starts happening when you are 3 or 4 times the feeding, or more.

Skimmers and scrubbers do different things for the most part so running them together is not a problem.

As far as size goes I have found that a 1 cube/day screen is just really tiny and it becomes tricky to light it quite right, but it can be done. 2 cube/day screen is better and not vastly oversized if you are feeding only one cube/day.

It's always better to light both sides even if one side is a different type of light or a significantly weaker light than the other side, as the rationale is to keep the base growth alive when growth gets thick. So if one side gets thick (strong light) and the other side does not (weak light) the weakly lit side will still contribute to the base growth of the other side, allowing you to have a longer growth cycle.

As far as cleaning cycle times go, this will depend on too many factors to predict, but usually you can go longer if you are lit on both sides per the above paragraph.

HTH
Bud

 

[scubasteve3]

worst case, you will just have a bit of trouble getting growth to get thick and/or green. Sometimes if it is vastly oversized (and thus vastly underfed), you will have trouble getting any green at all. This usually starts happening when you are 3 or 4 times the feeding, or more.

Skimmers and scrubbers do different things for the most part so running them together is not a problem.

As far as size goes I have found that a 1 cube/day screen is just really tiny and it becomes tricky to light it quite right, but it can be done. 2 cube/day screen is better and not vastly oversized if you are feeding only one cube/day.

It's always better to light both sides even if one side is a different type of light or a significantly weaker light than the other side, as the rationale is to keep the base growth alive when growth gets thick. So if one side gets thick (strong light) and the other side does not (weak light) the weakly lit side will still contribute to the base growth of the other side, allowing you to have a longer growth cycle.

As far as cleaning cycle times go, this will depend on too many factors to predict, but usually you can go longer if you are lit on both sides per the above paragraph.

HTH
Bud

Bud, Thanks for the quick response and great info!

So if I am building a 40g breeder with a 20g Long sump and plan to feed say 1 cube a day or 1 cube every other day, and my main goal is to run just a skimmer and ATS without a phosphate reactor, I should be OK with either the 1 cube or 2 cube screen.

Now, I do go on a lot of business trips so I could have someone watch the tank but they would most likely just do the feeding, auto top off and maybe a small water change but I highly doubt I could get them to clean my Algae Scrubber! So I'm wondering what build would let me get away with only having to clean every 1 month sometimes. When I am home, I would clean once a week but when I go on trips (sometimes for 1 month at a time), I would want the ATS to be able to keep going without having to be cleaned and be able to keep the nitrates, phosphates, etc low in the system. I thought an oversized screen would just allow the Algae to continue on growing and give you longer time between cleaning cycles. Why would it inhibit growth?

 

[jason2459]

Something I've noticed since bumping up the intensity of the red leds last week is my ORP has climbed over 300 which I'm never at. I've always had low orp (<300) even with using some Ozone. I've never worried about it and still don't. But every night when the ATS LEDs are on the ORP climbs quite dramatically. The past few nights so much so it's broken over 300. During the day it plummets back down of course most notably right after feedings. I'll be interested in seeing the trend as I have both sides now at higher intensities.

 

[jason2459]

Something I've noticed since bumping up the intensity of the red leds last week is my ORP has climbed over 300 which I'm never at. I've always had low orp (<300) even with using some Ozone. I've never worried about it and still don't. But every night when the ATS LEDs are on the ORP climbs quite dramatically. The past few nights so much so it's broken over 300. During the day it plummets back down of course most notably right after feedings. I'll be interested in seeing the trend as I have both sides now at higher intensities.

Weird when see the post above it looks cut off. But when quoting it the entire post shows up.