An experiment in gavage feeding an unhealthy H. magnifica
- Thread starter WrinkleFreeZone
- Start date
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
Pictures? No problem. I'm happy to post them every few days.
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HumbleLobster
Should be Quarantined
Great thread. Thanks for your work thus far on this topic. I agree with GaryGB, any luck with feeding other foods?
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
Garygb - Funny you'd ask about other food items. I was thinking about trying some silverside on Sunday. There's nothing special about the day, it's just that's when I'll be feeding the other mags in the tank some silversides. I'll let you know how it goes.
-B
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Superstretch18
New member
I was actually going to mention the silversides, as well. I remember reading (though I can't recall where) that the nematocysts on most anemones are more likely to fire in response to fish proteins than crustaceans.
I looked around though and couldn't find a source, so I may have just made it up. I've always had good success using silversides as a first food though for Heteractis, carpet and long tentacle anemones. Interested to see the outcome...
I looked around though and couldn't find a source, so I may have just made it up. I've always had good success using silversides as a first food though for Heteractis, carpet and long tentacle anemones. Interested to see the outcome...
zaraemna
Member
I bought a green bubble tip anemone online. When it arrived it had lost its color and didn't look very good. The mouth was wide open in the bag. I drip acclimated it and put it in the tank. It shrunk up a lot and almost always had the mouth wide open. It spit all the guts out too. I was sure it was going to die. I tried feeding mysis shrimp but they wouldn't stick and the anemone wouldn't respond to the food. It wouldn't close up or anything. One day when the mouth was open I turned off the flow and squired a few mysis soaked in Selcon into the mouth. Later on I saw some partially digested mysis on the anemone. It was trying to spit them back out. I kept feeding it like this and it has recovered now. I would even help it a little to get the stuff inside it out by gently squirting water in it's mouth when it was open. This would get the partially digested food out. I only did this when it looked like it was trying to spit the food out. I didn't want any old food to cause an infection or something and hoped it would conserve energy for the anemone. The anemone is still brown but I'm confident it will get the green color back over time.
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
As far as a choice for food, I use mysis initially for recovering an anemone for a few reasons. While it's not gospel, I have read somewhere that mysis and other small inverts are a significant component of their regular diet. Mysis also has a larger surface area to volume ratio in comparison to a piece of silverside. I may be wrong in believing this but, it seems that this increased ratio allows for quicker/easier digestion. I also worry about pieces of silverside that get regurgitated and what it might do to my water quality. If an anemone releases mysis, they are small enough to drift around and get consumed by my clowns and the other inhabitants of the tank. I'm not so sure about a piece of silverside though. As a side note, I do feed my healthy mags silversides once a week. They also get scraps from my clowns almost daily.
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WrinkleFreeZone
New member
If you've been watching this thread, the anemone has continued to make progress. Today, I fed mysis into the tentacles and had an improved feeding response. The anemone was able to capture and hold a few pieces. There was also an improved contraction of its collar. Encouraged by this, I poured myself a cup of coffee and waited. It then successfully delivered them to its mouth over about 20-25 minutes. I had to resist the temptation to stick my turkey baster into its mouth and just get it over with. I did however, put a few additional pieces of mysis on the tentacles that it was working to take food off of. Tomorrow, when I feed my other mags, I will try a very small piece of silverside to see how that goes.
-B
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dudley moray
sisternofuselessknowledge
wow when i first saw this thread i was going to blast you about the gavaging but after reading the whole thing i'm quite impressed when i got my bta it wasn't healthy but it wasn't on the verge either i fed everything then tried a mix of cyclops mysis brine microvert and reef plus now it eats whole krill and it's truly healthy!what i'm trying to say here is all nem 's seem to need some amount of nursing in the acclimation some more than others but the poular opinion is you can't force feed them well sir i believe you have proven given the right circumstance you can and probaly should
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
Here's an updated picture from this morning:
I've labeled the mouth because I'm sure that is what you are interested in (it's a little hard to see). The mouth is closed and has been this way consistently for the past 48 hours. It is now only opening when I'm feeding. I'm pleased with the way that things are going. I have not let my guard down though, this anemone still has a long way to go in terms of recovery to become a healthy specimen.
I will try a new food item today. I've got silversides thawing as we speak. If it doesn't take this, I'll return to mysis until next week.
-B
I've labeled the mouth because I'm sure that is what you are interested in (it's a little hard to see). The mouth is closed and has been this way consistently for the past 48 hours. It is now only opening when I'm feeding. I'm pleased with the way that things are going. I have not let my guard down though, this anemone still has a long way to go in terms of recovery to become a healthy specimen.
I will try a new food item today. I've got silversides thawing as we speak. If it doesn't take this, I'll return to mysis until next week.
-B
elegance coral
They call me EC
I applaud your efforts. This is the type of work and documentation that's, one day, going to make these animals much easier to care for. Keep up the good work!:thumbsup:
I have done extensive work with elegance corals. I know they are different animals, but we run into very similar problems with them both. Poor feeding response, nematocysts loss or malfunction, shrinkage/tissue loss from malnutrition, zooxanthellae loss, and probably other similarities. I figured I'd share some of my experience, and hopefully you may find some of it useful.
You touched on the subject of adding nutrition directly to the water the anemone is living in. There are several products available to help accomplish this. I personally use Reef Plus vitamin and amino acid supplement. All I have is anecdotal evidence to support the use of these products, but I believe they make a huge difference with animals like this that are suffering from malnutrition. At least in systems that are kept very clean with little food introductions. Within 24 hours of dosing a tank that contains struggling elegance corals, I have noticed an obvious improvement in polyp expansion. Over the course of weeks or months, the growth/expansion continues to improve with constant supplementation. If supplementation is stoped before the coral has regained the ability to feed, the coral will begin to withdraw. All corals and anemones are constantly cycling sea water in and out of their tissues. It seems very illogical to me to assume that they are unable to take advantage of nutrients this water holds. It would be like us not being able to process vitamins in vitamin water.
I have not tried your force feeding technique. Probably because elegance corals have much smaller mouths. I have held food directly on the corals mouth until they consumed it, though. I think this all boils down to energy gained verses energy lost. On the journey from the coral reef, on the other side of the planet, to our aquariums, these animals have had little to no energy gains (nutrition) while they continue to burn energy. By the time they reach us they have nothing left. You know it's bad when they don't even have the energy to feed themselves. I believe it is crucial to provide these animals the the resources needed to rebuild their energy reserves. If you are able to force feed this animal without causing any physical damage, I believe you are giving it the best chance of survival. This particular anemone seems to be in very bad shape, though.
Good luck with your anemone and please keep us posted.
I have done extensive work with elegance corals. I know they are different animals, but we run into very similar problems with them both. Poor feeding response, nematocysts loss or malfunction, shrinkage/tissue loss from malnutrition, zooxanthellae loss, and probably other similarities. I figured I'd share some of my experience, and hopefully you may find some of it useful.
You touched on the subject of adding nutrition directly to the water the anemone is living in. There are several products available to help accomplish this. I personally use Reef Plus vitamin and amino acid supplement. All I have is anecdotal evidence to support the use of these products, but I believe they make a huge difference with animals like this that are suffering from malnutrition. At least in systems that are kept very clean with little food introductions. Within 24 hours of dosing a tank that contains struggling elegance corals, I have noticed an obvious improvement in polyp expansion. Over the course of weeks or months, the growth/expansion continues to improve with constant supplementation. If supplementation is stoped before the coral has regained the ability to feed, the coral will begin to withdraw. All corals and anemones are constantly cycling sea water in and out of their tissues. It seems very illogical to me to assume that they are unable to take advantage of nutrients this water holds. It would be like us not being able to process vitamins in vitamin water.
I have not tried your force feeding technique. Probably because elegance corals have much smaller mouths. I have held food directly on the corals mouth until they consumed it, though. I think this all boils down to energy gained verses energy lost. On the journey from the coral reef, on the other side of the planet, to our aquariums, these animals have had little to no energy gains (nutrition) while they continue to burn energy. By the time they reach us they have nothing left. You know it's bad when they don't even have the energy to feed themselves. I believe it is crucial to provide these animals the the resources needed to rebuild their energy reserves. If you are able to force feed this animal without causing any physical damage, I believe you are giving it the best chance of survival. This particular anemone seems to be in very bad shape, though.
Good luck with your anemone and please keep us posted.
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
This morning I fed a fairly small piece of silverside. The anemone took this without problem. The feeding response, while not brisk, is beginning to become faster. It took the anemone about 15-20 minutes to engulf it. By comparison, my healthy mags take about 5-10 minutes to eat. I'm going to continue to observe it throughout the day to see whether or not it is going to regurgitate this.
Elegance coral - thanks for the product name. I've found out what SeaChem's "Reef Plus" vitamin and amino acid supplement contains:
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 5.0 mg
Boron 0.096 mg
Thiamin (B1) 0.02 mg
Iodine 0.18 mg
Riboflavin (B2) 0.02 mg
Iron 0.009 mg
Niacin (B3) 0.25 mg
Copper 0.001 mg
Pantothenate (B5) 0.07 mg
Zinc 0.005 mg
Vitamin B12 0.9 µg
Manganese 0.062 mg
Choline (B4) 0.004 mg
Bromide 0.3 mg
Inositol 0.011 mg
Cobalt 0.004 mg
Arginine 0.16 mg
Molybdenum 0.016 mg
Glutamate 0.9 mg
Vanadium 0.0003 mg
Lysine 0.3 mg
Nickel 0.00035 mg
Tyrosine 0.19 mg
Tin 0.00029 mg
Rubidium 0.001 mg
I'm pretty interested in this product. The amino acids like tyrosine, lysine, glutamic acid, and arginine are all building blocks for more complex proteins. The vitamins and minerals are often cofactors involved in metabolism or involved in structural components of some molecules. To be honest with you, I've never personally heard of any need for Rubidium or Tin for any biological purpose. The copper sulfate is probably the preservative in the product. Copper is in small quantities necessary as a cofactor. I wouldn't be alarmed about adding copper to your reef in using this product - it's toxic at high doses, not those that appropriate dosing of the product would provide your tank.
After careful consideration, I'm not going to start dosing it with this specimen. I don't want to muddy up any conclusions about why it survived or didn't, as the case may be. If gavaging works, I'll have experience with n=1 (+2 of my others) that I've helped through the acclimation period with this technique. With 3 successes (hopefully) I can start thinking about some trends and make some reasonable recommendations for the early care of these animals.
Elegance coral, thanks for the suggestion and your experience. I will probably try Reef Plus with my next one. These are the exact discussions that help advance our hobby.
-B
Elegance coral - thanks for the product name. I've found out what SeaChem's "Reef Plus" vitamin and amino acid supplement contains:
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) 5.0 mg
Boron 0.096 mg
Thiamin (B1) 0.02 mg
Iodine 0.18 mg
Riboflavin (B2) 0.02 mg
Iron 0.009 mg
Niacin (B3) 0.25 mg
Copper 0.001 mg
Pantothenate (B5) 0.07 mg
Zinc 0.005 mg
Vitamin B12 0.9 µg
Manganese 0.062 mg
Choline (B4) 0.004 mg
Bromide 0.3 mg
Inositol 0.011 mg
Cobalt 0.004 mg
Arginine 0.16 mg
Molybdenum 0.016 mg
Glutamate 0.9 mg
Vanadium 0.0003 mg
Lysine 0.3 mg
Nickel 0.00035 mg
Tyrosine 0.19 mg
Tin 0.00029 mg
Rubidium 0.001 mg
I'm pretty interested in this product. The amino acids like tyrosine, lysine, glutamic acid, and arginine are all building blocks for more complex proteins. The vitamins and minerals are often cofactors involved in metabolism or involved in structural components of some molecules. To be honest with you, I've never personally heard of any need for Rubidium or Tin for any biological purpose. The copper sulfate is probably the preservative in the product. Copper is in small quantities necessary as a cofactor. I wouldn't be alarmed about adding copper to your reef in using this product - it's toxic at high doses, not those that appropriate dosing of the product would provide your tank.
After careful consideration, I'm not going to start dosing it with this specimen. I don't want to muddy up any conclusions about why it survived or didn't, as the case may be. If gavaging works, I'll have experience with n=1 (+2 of my others) that I've helped through the acclimation period with this technique. With 3 successes (hopefully) I can start thinking about some trends and make some reasonable recommendations for the early care of these animals.
Elegance coral, thanks for the suggestion and your experience. I will probably try Reef Plus with my next one. These are the exact discussions that help advance our hobby.
-B
Glad to hear your mag is taking the food and delivering it to its mouth sans turkey baster. It seems you have every reason to be cautiously optimistic with your specimen. I wish every bleached mag could be as lucky to find an experienced keeper who is willing to provide the care that they seem to require to rally.
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
PAZE - I guess what you're asking is how do you gavage the anemone? I use a turkey baster because it is blunt, has a very low likelihood of lacerating the anemone, and is easy to use. I've thought about using a small piece of flexible tubing that I suck mysis into but haven't done this yet. In theory, it should work just as well. I just can't ever seem to be able to find it when I'm looking for it. It's easier to commandeer the supplies I need from the kitchen (shhhh, don't tell the wife).
I thaw the mysis and pour off anything that melts. I then place it in some tank water and let it sit for a couple of minutes. I want the water to be shrimp flavored. I suck 5-10 mysis into the turkey baster with a fair amount of tank water. The mysis float for a moment, but then generally settle down close to the tip. Early on, when the mouth was open, I would actually place the tip of the baster into the mouth and into the body of the anemone about a half of an inch (1/2") in. If you want to be specific, I believe that the tip is in the actinopharynx. I do this because I want to deliver the food items directly into the body cavity. I then gently squeeze. When I say gently squeeze, I mean that there's NO force involved with it at all. It's just enough to let the mysis drop in. If you try this, watch the level of the air bubble from the bulb within the baster so that you don't accidentally inject air into the anemone. I'd then draw the tip back a little bit and sit with the tip at the mouth to keep the mysis from being swept away before the anemone had a chance to react. With patience, the mouth would close around the tip of the baster. This initially took close to 30 minutes. I'd then observe it to see if it regurgitated anything. If it did, I'd repeat the process. If it took anything at all, I was satisfied and attempted again in 24 hours.
As it started to get better, the mouth had some tone between feedings. To encourage it to eat, I'd take the baster loaded with shrimp flavored water and place the tip very close to the mouth. A few wafts of L'eau de crevette and then I'd suck up some mysis and place the tip at the center of the mouth. In the presence of GENTLE pressure (and probably the odor trail from the mysis) the mouth would relax and admit the tip. Same process as above.
When it began to resume holding food items and making an attempt at feeding, I'd supplement what it was taking by placing a few additional mysis directly on the tentacles that were engaging the mouth. Today, when it took the piece of silverside, I didn't supplement anything.
I should note that before gavaging, I always gave the anemone a chance to feed normally. If this failed, then I would gavage. As long as you don't use something sharp and you don't jab the tip into the body cavity with any force, I don't see how you would injure the animal.
-B
I thaw the mysis and pour off anything that melts. I then place it in some tank water and let it sit for a couple of minutes. I want the water to be shrimp flavored. I suck 5-10 mysis into the turkey baster with a fair amount of tank water. The mysis float for a moment, but then generally settle down close to the tip. Early on, when the mouth was open, I would actually place the tip of the baster into the mouth and into the body of the anemone about a half of an inch (1/2") in. If you want to be specific, I believe that the tip is in the actinopharynx. I do this because I want to deliver the food items directly into the body cavity. I then gently squeeze. When I say gently squeeze, I mean that there's NO force involved with it at all. It's just enough to let the mysis drop in. If you try this, watch the level of the air bubble from the bulb within the baster so that you don't accidentally inject air into the anemone. I'd then draw the tip back a little bit and sit with the tip at the mouth to keep the mysis from being swept away before the anemone had a chance to react. With patience, the mouth would close around the tip of the baster. This initially took close to 30 minutes. I'd then observe it to see if it regurgitated anything. If it did, I'd repeat the process. If it took anything at all, I was satisfied and attempted again in 24 hours.
As it started to get better, the mouth had some tone between feedings. To encourage it to eat, I'd take the baster loaded with shrimp flavored water and place the tip very close to the mouth. A few wafts of L'eau de crevette and then I'd suck up some mysis and place the tip at the center of the mouth. In the presence of GENTLE pressure (and probably the odor trail from the mysis) the mouth would relax and admit the tip. Same process as above.
When it began to resume holding food items and making an attempt at feeding, I'd supplement what it was taking by placing a few additional mysis directly on the tentacles that were engaging the mouth. Today, when it took the piece of silverside, I didn't supplement anything.
I should note that before gavaging, I always gave the anemone a chance to feed normally. If this failed, then I would gavage. As long as you don't use something sharp and you don't jab the tip into the body cavity with any force, I don't see how you would injure the animal.
-B
WrinkleFreeZone
New member
The anemone continues to do well. The mouth remains closed. Since I fed silverside yesterday, I'm going to hold off on feeding today.
The anemone has been in my tank a week and this morning was the first time that one of my clowns has taken an interest in it. She's not staying in it, but just beginning to nose around it. It would be interesting to see if hosting has any correlation with the health of the anemone.
-B
The anemone has been in my tank a week and this morning was the first time that one of my clowns has taken an interest in it. She's not staying in it, but just beginning to nose around it. It would be interesting to see if hosting has any correlation with the health of the anemone.
-B
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