Anemones and antibiotics
- Thread starter Ron Popeil
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jeffreylesser
New member
It did not end well for me. I logged some entries in the pedal laceration in gigantea thread, as I tried antibiotics(enroflxacin/Baytril) around the same time as the OP of that thread. There were points where it looked as though the anemone was going to recover, but it did not end well. It was a shame, they are such beautiful anemones. I have put the gigantea quest on hold, and I now have a Blue Haddoni in my tank. I do have to say that even though the giganteas I had perished, there was a point where they appeared to be recovering and getting noticeably better, and without the use of medication I personally have never seen this to be the case.
jeffreylesser
New member
LisaE I just read your other post in a different thread. You had a question about lighting. I believe light to have a negative impact on the effectiveness of the antibiotic(baytril/enroflaxacin). Look at the bottle it comes in, it is your typical dark brown glass bottle designed to keep light out. similar to an iodine bottle. I believe the Koi paper I posted above also talks about magnesium interfering with the effectiveness of the antibiotic. Magnesium is a little hard to avoid unfortunately. Ten days without light can be tough on an anemone as well. This is part of the reason, I would lean toward daily 5 hour treatments as you could allow the anemone to get light when not in treatment.
There is also some question as to whether a product like amquel(for the ammonia) would interfere with the antibiotic as well. I never used amquel, and I am sure the ammonia had an impact even though I changed the water every 24 hours. Please document everything you are doing, dosages, etc... as it may help for the future.
There is also some question as to whether a product like amquel(for the ammonia) would interfere with the antibiotic as well. I never used amquel, and I am sure the ammonia had an impact even though I changed the water every 24 hours. Please document everything you are doing, dosages, etc... as it may help for the future.
illcssd
New member
I am thinking about setting up a small stock tank to experiement with this theory. I just want to try and see how dosing Doxycycline and or Ciprofloxin does with imported anemones from the wholesaler/transhipper. So many of them I see at the wholesaler go through this inflating/deflating sequence until death, and there has to be a way to stop it.
I am not a scientist by any means, but have the resources available, and feel this is a subject that needs to be explored deeper in at least some mildy controlled conditions.
Questions I have. How long do you guys think we should be leaving them in this medication before attempting them in a normal reef system? 10 days, a month? I think a month is probably safer, but I also don't know what diseases/infections we're actually attempting to treat here. Be it Vibrio or something else. Should I set this up as close to natural conditions as possible; i.e. flow/light?
Ideally I'll try this with Gigantea too, but they both seem to suffer from the same fate in aquaria after being imported, so I think it's safe to assume the infection is probably the same, or closely related.
I am not a scientist by any means, but have the resources available, and feel this is a subject that needs to be explored deeper in at least some mildy controlled conditions.
Questions I have. How long do you guys think we should be leaving them in this medication before attempting them in a normal reef system? 10 days, a month? I think a month is probably safer, but I also don't know what diseases/infections we're actually attempting to treat here. Be it Vibrio or something else. Should I set this up as close to natural conditions as possible; i.e. flow/light?
Ideally I'll try this with Gigantea too, but they both seem to suffer from the same fate in aquaria after being imported, so I think it's safe to assume the infection is probably the same, or closely related.
OrionN
Moved on
Just in case anybody interested. I document my antibiotic treatment for my sick Magnifica in this thread. I am not sure how he is going to do. I hope he will do well. I upload all the pictures on to Reefcentral so the threat will not loose these pictures in the future. I welcome any comment and will answer any question regarding this treatment experiment.
Hope it will be a great learning experiences for everybody.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2220652
Hope it will be a great learning experiences for everybody.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2220652
OrionN
Moved on
In the thread noted above I am treating my sick Magnifica with Ciprofoxacin at the dose of 25 mg/gal. in treatment tank.
I choose this antibiotic because it is cheap, readily available, water soluble and readily distribute in our body (easier to guess dosage needed for treatment). It is bactericidal broad spectrum.
I dose this medication at 25 mg/g which is roughly the concentration on this antibiotic in our body (500 mg twice a day). It is eliminated though urine in our body. In the tank, I guess that it stay around for a while until break it down by???? I am sure once we flush it down the toilet, the bacterial will break it down.
So far if you follow the thread, the anemone is responding to treatment. I will stop dosing antibiotic after Monday (4 days from now), about 10 days of treatment.
I choose this antibiotic because it is cheap, readily available, water soluble and readily distribute in our body (easier to guess dosage needed for treatment). It is bactericidal broad spectrum.
I dose this medication at 25 mg/g which is roughly the concentration on this antibiotic in our body (500 mg twice a day). It is eliminated though urine in our body. In the tank, I guess that it stay around for a while until break it down by???? I am sure once we flush it down the toilet, the bacterial will break it down.
So far if you follow the thread, the anemone is responding to treatment. I will stop dosing antibiotic after Monday (4 days from now), about 10 days of treatment.
jeffreylesser
New member
I don't think this is the case, as the antibiotic by nature is breaking down the bacteria. When I used antibiotics for fish/anemone treatment I would run bleach in the antibiotic before flushing. It is hard to find guidelines for this, but from what I have read at least 20 minutes is advisable.
Nems
Nems
Basically what i can say about this that its basically a crap shoot.
Some nems can handle and some cant.
I have actually stopped using it because i noticed with mertens and gigantea the stress from the antibiotic dip was more stressful then just trying to let them on their own.
Another thing i found to be helpful is either ozone or UV filter.
I have tried antibiotics on haddoni magnifica mertens gigantea.
In my expeirence the best thing is to provide proper water conditions and a ozone or UV
Nems
Basically what i can say about this that its basically a crap shoot.
Some nems can handle and some cant.
I have actually stopped using it because i noticed with mertens and gigantea the stress from the antibiotic dip was more stressful then just trying to let them on their own.
Another thing i found to be helpful is either ozone or UV filter.
I have tried antibiotics on haddoni magnifica mertens gigantea.
In my expeirence the best thing is to provide proper water conditions and a ozone or UV
OrionN
Moved on
Reefvette,
It would help if you provide the protocol that you use that work or did not work. What antibiotic, how much and how you dose it. How you care for the anemone while they are under treatment, dip vs continuous dosing for a longer period of time. More information is helpful even if the treatment is not successful.
There is not going to be one organism that infect these anemone. But in general, I think it is a bacterial rather than virus or protozoa or fungal. The correct antibiotic should be effective if we can provide good care for the anemone while it is under treatment.
IMO, dipping can only be useful as a prophylaxis prior to the disease, and not helpful if the anemone is infected and is sick with a bacterial infection.
It would help if you provide the protocol that you use that work or did not work. What antibiotic, how much and how you dose it. How you care for the anemone while they are under treatment, dip vs continuous dosing for a longer period of time. More information is helpful even if the treatment is not successful.
There is not going to be one organism that infect these anemone. But in general, I think it is a bacterial rather than virus or protozoa or fungal. The correct antibiotic should be effective if we can provide good care for the anemone while it is under treatment.
IMO, dipping can only be useful as a prophylaxis prior to the disease, and not helpful if the anemone is infected and is sick with a bacterial infection.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
I'm going to post this link here (as well as Minh's other thread) because I am not aware of another paper on the subject. I've been looking for research on anemone infections for several years, and just recently found this paper. I will host it on my ftp server for people to download.
Antimicrobial activity of tissue and associated bacteria from benthic sea anemone Stichodactyla haddoni against microbial pathogens.
Antimicrobial activity of tissue and associated bacteria from benthic sea anemone Stichodactyla haddoni against microbial pathogens.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Sometimes when I post something all I get is a stunned silence in response 
Basically the paper discusses the different bacteria found in cultures taken from the tentacle and body tissues of S. haddoni, and how effective these bacteria are as antimicrobials against human pathogens.
However (as far as we are concerned as aquarists) it definitely shows how many associated bacteria have antimicrobial qualities that protect S. haddoni from infection from other bacteria. Additionally, it suggests that bleached anemones may be less effective at fighting off infection due to the impact that bleaching has on helpful bacteria populations.
Someone with a better understanding of antibiotics may be able to draw some conclusions about which bacteria might be problematic for S. haddoni, and therefore which antibiotics might be particularly effective in prophylactic use.
Basically the paper discusses the different bacteria found in cultures taken from the tentacle and body tissues of S. haddoni, and how effective these bacteria are as antimicrobials against human pathogens.
However (as far as we are concerned as aquarists) it definitely shows how many associated bacteria have antimicrobial qualities that protect S. haddoni from infection from other bacteria. Additionally, it suggests that bleached anemones may be less effective at fighting off infection due to the impact that bleaching has on helpful bacteria populations.
Someone with a better understanding of antibiotics may be able to draw some conclusions about which bacteria might be problematic for S. haddoni, and therefore which antibiotics might be particularly effective in prophylactic use.
OrionN
Moved on
Sorry about not response sooner. I spend Friday night and Saturday driving to Dallas to watch the Red River Rivalry. 8 hr drive each way to Dallas then I got tortured by watching the University Oklahoma slaughter and deep fried my beloved Bevo.Sometimes when I post something all I get is a stunned silence in response
Basically the paper discusses the different bacteria found in cultures taken from the tentacle and body tissues of S. haddoni, and how effective these bacteria are as antimicrobials against human pathogens.
......
. Did not get home until 12AM, dead tired and did not have the strength to read the article or response to this post.Just in cased you don't know, the RRR is the yearly biggest rival football game between University of Texas and University of Oklahoma. We play annually at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas which is in exactly 200+ miles from each campus. Yesterday was the 107th meeting between the two schools. This year we ended up with a very short end of the stick and was absolutely annihilated without mercy.
Anyway, I will try to response to this a little later in the other thread.
OrionN
Moved on
I just cut and paste my response here
After review the study posted by Bonsainut, this is my impression of this study.
The authors trying to find molecules that have antibacterial effects of human pathogen. Knowing that there seem to be bacterial isolated from anemones, and that microorganisms have methods of inhibiting their competitors, and guessing that anemones have their own defense mechanisms to fight bacterial and fungal infections, they set out to see if they can demonstrate grown inhibition of various isolate against human and fish pathogens.
First they demonstrated that they can isolate bacterial from anemones. They did not give any information about how they did this other than stated that they isolate CFU (colony forming units) from tentacles and from the column of the anemones. They did not stated if the anemones were healthy, taken directly from the wild or in holding tank and sick or sicken with transport. How these anemones were keep prior to harvest. Method of harvest of these anemones. How they account for contamination from sea water. We know that the sea water is full of organisms and bacterial. How they be sure that the bacterial on the outside or inside of the anemones.
What they did demonstrate is that extract form the anemones inhibit human pathogens, and inhibit fish pathogens even more. Extracts from the bacterial they isolated also inhibit these pathogens. They recommended that further studies focus on finding these molecules as source for new useful antibiotic.
For me, this article give no insight into what pathogens infect the anemones.
To be fair, the objective of the study is to try to find new and useful antibiotic molecules. The objection I pointed out above is not important toward the objective of the study. Much more important for the authors, and they go into it extensively, is which method of extractions either preserved or destroyed the antimicrobial effects of the molecule they wanted. This would give insights into the structures of the molecules they are trying to isolate.
From studies like this drug company would invest money and come up with our new magical antibiotics. After all, penicillin was isolated from a fungus. This fungus use the original penicillin to inhibit bacterial growth so that it can gain the upper hand.
After review the study posted by Bonsainut, this is my impression of this study.
The authors trying to find molecules that have antibacterial effects of human pathogen. Knowing that there seem to be bacterial isolated from anemones, and that microorganisms have methods of inhibiting their competitors, and guessing that anemones have their own defense mechanisms to fight bacterial and fungal infections, they set out to see if they can demonstrate grown inhibition of various isolate against human and fish pathogens.
First they demonstrated that they can isolate bacterial from anemones. They did not give any information about how they did this other than stated that they isolate CFU (colony forming units) from tentacles and from the column of the anemones. They did not stated if the anemones were healthy, taken directly from the wild or in holding tank and sick or sicken with transport. How these anemones were keep prior to harvest. Method of harvest of these anemones. How they account for contamination from sea water. We know that the sea water is full of organisms and bacterial. How they be sure that the bacterial on the outside or inside of the anemones.
What they did demonstrate is that extract form the anemones inhibit human pathogens, and inhibit fish pathogens even more. Extracts from the bacterial they isolated also inhibit these pathogens. They recommended that further studies focus on finding these molecules as source for new useful antibiotic.
For me, this article give no insight into what pathogens infect the anemones.
To be fair, the objective of the study is to try to find new and useful antibiotic molecules. The objection I pointed out above is not important toward the objective of the study. Much more important for the authors, and they go into it extensively, is which method of extractions either preserved or destroyed the antimicrobial effects of the molecule they wanted. This would give insights into the structures of the molecules they are trying to isolate.
From studies like this drug company would invest money and come up with our new magical antibiotics. After all, penicillin was isolated from a fungus. This fungus use the original penicillin to inhibit bacterial growth so that it can gain the upper hand.
FWIW, I have tried treating mags, gigs, and haddoni with chloramphenicol in a QT for a few days at a time. Just did two big water changes each day of quarantine to remove ammonia etc. I still have yet to have success with this method... I don't know if this is because of the animals I start with, difficulty maintaining water quality in the QT, or the makeup of the water itself (salinity, nitrates, etc).
I finally have a healthy mag and a small healthy H malu in my main tank. I didn't do an antibiotic treatment on either of them. They are both just in my display under 6500k lighting, ozone, and frequent (every other day) feedings of scallops or raw yellowfin tuna.
I still think that so much of having 'nem success still goes back to starting with a healthy animal... without that, I just think you're fighting way too hard of an uphill battle.
I finally have a healthy mag and a small healthy H malu in my main tank. I didn't do an antibiotic treatment on either of them. They are both just in my display under 6500k lighting, ozone, and frequent (every other day) feedings of scallops or raw yellowfin tuna.
I still think that so much of having 'nem success still goes back to starting with a healthy animal... without that, I just think you're fighting way too hard of an uphill battle.
ryannterror
New member
Anyone ever try Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim to treat a Mag?
OrionN
Moved on
Antibiotic given to land animals stay there until they poop or pee it out (or metabolized by the liver/ other organ)
Sick anemone will not eat. Almost all antibiotic developed are water soluble. The would enter the anemone easy though diffusion. Give it into the water, it will get into the anemone. If you somehow able to injected antibiotic into the tissue of the anemone, it will just diffuse out to the water. IMO, there is no advantage in getting the antibiotic into the anemone because of the above reason.
Sick anemone will not eat. Almost all antibiotic developed are water soluble. The would enter the anemone easy though diffusion. Give it into the water, it will get into the anemone. If you somehow able to injected antibiotic into the tissue of the anemone, it will just diffuse out to the water. IMO, there is no advantage in getting the antibiotic into the anemone because of the above reason.
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