Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[lori344]

John and Terry,

Please, Please, Please step back, do some square breathing and ease up on each other. Personally I don't want to loose either of you. I'm learning a boat load from your discussion!!! Both of you are guilty of passive agressive and defensive language in this discussion. Perhaps John shouldn't have used the word "battle" in his first respose, I don't think he meant to be so harsh. (IMO, I don't know John) The information you two are sharing with us is important and VERY appreciated. Opinions, and experience matter. It is said wisdom comes from experience. And everyone's including yours, mine and Dr Colorni's matter. IMHO we all may learn something here from you two. Speaking for myself, I have already learned more about treating Cryptocaryon irritans, I have more options should i have to face it again. A debate shouldn't get into mud slinging (boy there is a lot of testosterone on this thread.) Please, gentlemen you are both invaluable. Don't muddy the water with competition.

Best Regards,
~lori


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Like fine wine, reefs take patients & time

[This message has been edited by lori344 (edited 09-16-2000).]

 

[Terry B]

John,
At first I thought your intent was a good old-fashioned debate. I can appreciate that, because I enjoy a good debate. Then you became antagonistic with comments like ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œWhats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ For the benefit of other reading this thread I will respond. Some of the information that is contained in the two part article has not, to my knowledge ever been published in a hobbyist magazine. It describes what we know now about the life cycle and updates this information. I also go into some details about how the parasite can be imported that we did not understand previously. I expect with your attitude that you would have nothing good to say about it and you probably wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t learn a thing.
My point in saying that all public aquariums quarantine is to point out that they all believe it is beneficial and does greatly reduce the chances importing it into their displays. I guess you stand-alone on this one. Then you show your blatant disrespect for the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. You said ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œIf Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ Your idea of raising the temp to treat SW ich is a very old one. Did you think you were the first with the idea? It has been used with FW ich for a very long time. The problem is that it does not work for saltwater. I guess if someone says they cured ich by putting peanut butter in their tank that we should believe that is what happened despite any scientific evidence to the contrary. This sounds like a donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t confuse me with the facts attitude. Then you accuse me of speculating yet this is all your opinion is based upon.
Why donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t you ask anyone on this board if I have ever advocated using hyposalinity in a reef tank? I can say that I have strongly advocated disease treatments that actually work on a consistent basis, and an awful lot of people have thanked me for helping them save their fish. How about you? If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide.
I am not particularly an advocate of using garlic to treat Ich. The reason is not that garlic doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t work. It is because other methods are more consistently effective. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t see anything wrong with using it as a stop gap method to control an infection in a reef. You donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t believe it works at all, but there are many more people that believe it helps. To sum it up, you discount methods that do work in favor of one that doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t based on your personal experience. Do you even know for sure your fish actually had Crypt? There have been dozens of treatments over the years that claim to cure Ich. There is always someone that says something like ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œCoral Vital cured ich for me.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ Sometimes people get lucky, sometimes people think white spots are always Ich when itââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s not, and yes once in a while ich does go away on its own. Why donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t you put yourself to your own test and answer the same questions that you ask others? You have not in any way come up with a reef safe cure. People reading this thread would be wise to stick to methods that actually have shown to work on a consistent basis, especially those that have been proven scientifically. Donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t bet your fishââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s lives on one personââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œit worked for me.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚
Terry B

 

[billsreef]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Biosystems:
Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tim that would be a great idea

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Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos
ICQ 56222784

 

[john f]

Terry,
Why don't you read #3 and my follow up to it above.
And it is your (pardon me) arrogant attitude which caused me to become slightly antagonistic. If you can't understand that and back down a little we will have to agree to disagree.
I never have claimed that elevating temps is some kind of new idea. I got the idea from Frank Hoff who got the idea from Spotte apparently.
It seems your major argument with me is the elevated temps. Fine, I have no proof it works, just observations. This seems the same to me as the garlic crowd yet you seem to favor or at least remain neutral to that for in reef treatment.
"If you want to compare years of experience with saltwater you lose in a landslide"
This is the kind of attitude that gets me (and anyone else you try it on) going.
I did not think we were trying to win a personal experience argument.

If someone posts to this board with fish IN THE REEF tank having ICH and does not/cannot catch the fish out, your advice can't help them past eliminating stressors, increasing water quality, etc. Same stuff we ALL know.
I'm not claiming I can help them either. I'll just help myself.
I appreciate the help you have given to many over the years.
So tell me this:

????How do you propose I eliminate the possibility of an ICH outbreak in my 135 reef with 8 resident fish, some of which have been in the tank for 9+ years???

I can't (have tried) catching them out, and I quarantine new additions for 1-2 months in a coral growout system before adding them to my 135. I mention this beacuse I have 2 butterflyfish ready to go in the tank, but I know when they do go in they will get ICH.

I hope to meet you at MACNA so maybe we can kiss and makeup. As I said above we probably agree 99% of the time, and it's always nice to meet and learn from others.


John

 

[Steve Richardson]

"but I know when they do go in they will get ICH"

really. Bummer. Never had it myself.

juuuust lucky, I guess.

John - just to satistfy my own curiosity about stocking levels, etc.. can you describe your fish (make/model /size) please?

-S

[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 09-16-2000).]

 

[john f]

Yes I'd be glad to.
This tank is the only one out of several I have and currently run that seems to have an Ich problem, and I have been very frustrated over the years when I try and put new fish in.

Tank: 135 reef ready.

Circulation: Iwaki 100rlt with twin sea swirls.

Live sand bed (4") and about 200lbs LR (Figi and Marshall island, as well as some Florida from the old days.

Lights: two 250 watt MH 12K and one 400 watt 12K

corals: Dozens, from shrooms, leathers, and xenia, to Acropora, montipora, seriatopora, as well as 2 anenomes (1 bubble tip about 10 months and 1 H. crispa about 3 years)

Fish: 1 pair ocellaris clownfish (10+ years)
(raised about 4 groups of offspring)
1 yellow tang (5 years) 4 inches
1 sand goby (6 years) 3 inches
1 black blenny (1 year) 3 inches
1 pair Bangai cardinal 2 inches each (3+ years and 4 sets of offspring)
1 3" anthias unknown species(5 months)
1 Fire (or tomato) clownfish (2 years)

The large clownfish I believe is the cause of Ich on my new additions lately as he is a major bully. Unfortunately I can't seem to catch him. Have tried traps, hooks, nets, etc. He is VERY elusive and smart (for a fish)

I also think the yellow tang caused some of my past problems as I have tried to add other
tangs (kole, blue) and he laid a whooping on
'em.
I think when I add the pyramids the tang and the clownfish may take turns on them. This is why they might get Ich.
But since I have quarantined them and not had ANY additions (corals included) for the past 5 months they should be fine according to all you guys, right

John

 

[Steve Richardson]

"they should be fine according to all you guys, right "

well... no. No need to get defensive. Trust me - we are all on the same side here.

Sounds like you know what your problem is though. You are fortunate enough to have some aggressive fish. The multiple Clownfish will lead to agression in A.frenatus, no doubt. I had to remove my percula clowns away from 'Big Ben the Killer Tomato' for the same reason. (Actually, I should hall her 'Benita'.

The same can be said for your Yellow Tang... many have had success keeping a yellow and something else like a Purple or Sailfin together, it doesnt really surprise me you have had trouble there as well.

If you have a chronic problem with ICH, you may want to consider doing something about your combating occupants. Have you considered giving away your perculas or yellow tang? Perhaps things would improve next time you choose to add something.

Of course, like I said... this comming from a guy who has never dealt with it. But, I'm a big believer in the 'stress' thing.

thoughts,

Steve

 

[john f]

Steve,
The comment "never had it myself, juuuust lucky I guess" is what put me on the defensive. In fact this whole thread has me on the defensive. Sorry to jump ugly on you.
I feel as though because I disagree with Terry on a couple points, my overall Reef/fish keeping ability has been questioned. As you can see from my tank specs and stocking list I do have some idea about how to do this reef thing right.

You are correct and I already know that aggression has caused my Ich problems. Can't remove the ocellaris from this tank though. Had them for over 10 years. The tomato has got to go. I have a slurp gun on order from the local dive shop and I am hoping to catch him with it.
The tang has actually mellowed somewhat over the years and I think with the tomato gone I may have better luck than in the past.
It's just when you get an Ich outbreak people tend to say "Oh, you must have poor water conditions, or you must not quarantine your fish, or maybe (as Terry implied) you don't even know what Ich(crypto) is"
I resent that as I know very well all of these things and can still get Ich outbreaks in this tank.

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-16-2000).]

 

[Steve Richardson]

No problem... and yes - I probably am 'juuuuuust lucky', but it works for me.

Slurp gun might do the trick. Perhaps start feeding more often by hand at the surface... get the rascal used to eating from your hand.

I've trained mine this way... so if she ever gets to be a real problem, it might be easy to net her. (The ol' 'bait and switch tactic muahahaha! )

Understand you though... I've had her for 2 years, so unless things got really bad - I couldnt just give it away.

good luck with it,

-S

 

[Purple Tang]

I had trouble interducing a Flame Angel to my Tank. I had a Coral Beauty in there which is about .5 inches better.
It chased the Flame Angel vilantly around the Tank, so I knew this couldn't continue.
He was even injuring himself from hitting rocks.
I spent 2 hours tring to caught the Coral Beauty, ended up removing my rock etc.
Put him in another tank for a week.
switch my rock all around.
The Flame Angel was doing pretty good.
Then I put the Coral back in the tank.
The Coral only shows minor signs of aggression know, he pretty much leave the Flame Angel alone Know.

 

[john f]

Thanks Lori,
You're right.
I knew there was a reason we guys need women around

 

[dragon0121]

I also would like to thank TerryB and JohnF for the above discussion. The only way for people to keep Ich out of their tanks is if they UNDERSTAND the creature and its life cycle.

I will try to summerize something that I have seen TerryB say for over the last year, and it seems to get missed by people reading at times. Cryptocaryon Irritans is an OBLIGATE PATHOGEN and scientific research has PROVEN that it will not survive without a host fish. (FACT, not an arguable opinion as far as science is concerned at this time) That means if you remove all of your fish from your tank for 6 months the TANK WILL NOT HAVE ICH. And this is were people need to quit saying a tank always has Ich, becasue it has already been proven it doesn't. The fish in the tank may have Ich but the tank doesn't (remove fish per above). If you can 100% remove Ich from ALL FISH added to your tank through a quarentine/hypo/medication approach starting with the first thru the last, then the FISH will not introduce Ich into your tank. And barring any other import path for the pathogen your TANK will not have Ich, neither will the FISH!

I believe TerryB is implying that in his future article he may expose alternative methods for Cryptocaryan Irritans to be introduced into your tank. Offhand I would think that introduction of LIVE SAND could be another .

JohnF has said he has a tank that after months and months of APPARENTLY Ich free fish, the occupants again show Ich. To me at least, it is apparent that the Cryptocaryon Irritans in JohnF's tank have a HOST at all times, the fish. IMO this is what TerryB has pointed out over and over to everybody he helps. If you want to fix the problem 100% gauranteed, you will have to remove the fish for longer than the life cycle of the pathogen, AND successfully remove 100% of the Ich from the fish before reintroducing. GOOD LUCK!!!

JohnF appears to want an absolute cure from TerryB, IN TANK. I think it's obvious there is no such thing at this time. But following the feed well, stress free environment scenario, will give the fish the best chance to keep the pathogen at a survivable and UNNOTICEABLE level (may still be there) .

The argument that because you are an expert on a pathogen, disease, etc. means you obviously should be able to have a cure for it, is nonsensical. We don't have cures for cancer, AIDS, diabetes, color blindness, the COMMON FRICKIN' COLD. That doesn't exclude millions of doctors worldwide from being experts in their fields, nor should we ignore their advice! Personally, I consider TerryB one of the foremost experts on this pathogen and fish stress, that posts on these boards and is available to ALL of us.

Keep the good info comin' this way guys and gals! There are a lot of us out here just soakin' it up!!!!!

 

[ejloomis]

I am also glad to see this discussion on the Crypt. parasite lifecycle. In answer to a question above, it does seem to me that there potential differences in tank management depending upon the life-cycle and survivability of the Ick parasite. I, for example, still use a UV sterilizer. But I know that UV is falling out of favor, and perhaps for good reason; the problem being, as I understand it, that UV may kill invertebrate nutrients in the water.

So when, if ever, can I turn off my UV if I still want to use it to kill possible Ick parasites after new additions to the tank? (I realize that it is not absolutely certain that UV does even this, but UV seems to me a relatively well-established safeguard. I for one, have not had parasite problems after adding UV, whereas I did have them before). If the life-cycle of the parasite is finished at 6 weeks, then I can turn off the UV 6 weeks after any new addition, and avoid other possibly harmful effects of the sterilizer. But if it can remain present but undetected indefinitely, then a constant use of UV might be required to prevent its spread.

Those who have reported Ick outbreaks well after 6 weeks from the last addition to the tank, is it certain that there was nothing else added that could plausibly have carried the parasite? Not even a bit of liverock? If so, then the low-level infection hypothesis seems rather probable.

 

[Bubafat]

I know that this is just shot in the dark, anedotle evidence but i've found it works well to prevent and get rid of ick. It's a very efficient and easy way to get rid and keep it away, you might just call it a miracle cure. Think of it this way, what is one this that we don't have in our tank that tangs and any other fish have in the wild (other then millions of gallons of water)?

A VERY diverse food source. "But that would be very expensive," you say. Well, yes it may be but is it worth the anguish, and the price of new fish every couple months? Basically, i go to 3 places to find food, Cub foods, my LFS, and my local co-op. Go to cub, and buy say a half pound of every single thing they have (salt water foods only, i've HEARD, not a fact, that fish can digest it better), go home, and cut it up into many, many very small pieces. Yes, it makes your kitchen REEK for a couple hours afterward. I then go to my LFS, and buy EVERY frozen food type they have (spend $50 bucks or so). Then i go to my local co-op, buy nori and many different greens (i like co-ops for that because i don't want to take a chance with pesticides or other bad things). I par boil the greens, then freezed them to break up the cellular walls so that my tang can digest it better.

So what do i have for food now:

Fresh Frozen shrimp
Frozen Bay and Ocean Scalops
Frozen Muscles
Frozen Clams
Frozen Blue Point Oysters
Frozen Lobster (yes i spoil them)
Frozen Macril
and a couple of other frozen fish
Nori
Seaweed Selects (red, green and purple)
Greens
Formula 1&2
Frozen Brine, blood worms, and other frozen foods.

I have my own little 1.5 Cu m. Fridge that i turned into a freezer dedicated to the foods.

Yes, you might call me extremely excessive, but would you like to live on only 3 or 4 different food types for your entire life, you'd die from malnutrition.

Well, i'm done ranting now

Matt

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Have fun and happy reefing. "The goal in life is to reach pure happieness." Aristotle

 

[JohnL]

Tagged for the archives

 

[Larry M]

Lori said it better than I could have, or possibly tried to. All I ask is people treat each other with some respect and at least attempt to keep the discussion clean. I would also like to see all parties stay to post another day.

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Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

 

[Terry B]

I have to agree that diet, good water quality and a stress free environment are all things we should strive for. However, no amount of stress can cause Ich if the parasite is not present in the system.

Ejloomis,
Ultraviolet sterilizers can be used to help control Ich if it is powerful enough and the water flow to the unit is correct. It would be very difficult for UV light to eliminate Ich from the system. Here is a snippet from an article that I wrote. ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œThe majority of mature theronts excyst (emerge) from tomonts during darkness (Burgess and Matthews, 1994b). The same holds true for trophonts exiting the host. This may be interpreted as a part of the parasiteââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s strategy for survival. Most reef fish are less active at night and stay close to the substrate and coral making them easier targets. Even though only 5 to 20 percent of theronts successfully infect a host, in the confines of an aquarium this can mean a ten-fold increase in parasites on the fish in a six to eight day period.ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ As you can see the parasites don't have to go very far to get to the fish. This means that many of them will not be swimming through the water enough to be caught by the UV light.

Dragon0121,
Thank you for your intelligent post. You are right that an Ich free tank + clean fish = no Ich in the system. You are correct that live sand can be a source of infection. Removing the fish for four to six weeks from the system and cleaning the fish of infection before returning them is the only sure way of eliminating this pest. Of course this is much easier if you take steps to prevent introducing the parasite into your system from the beginning. Your comments about experts was excellent and makes perfect sense, thanks again.

JohnF,
My position is correct not just because I say so, but because I have the scientific evidence to back it up. I only mentioned my years of experience because you tried to validate your position by saying you have ten years of experience.
How do you eliminate Ich from your 135-gallon aquarium? You want absolutes but so far you reject the only things that actually work. Are you looking for real answers or just something that you approve of?
If you really want get rid of the pest and you are convinced is in your system there's only one absolute way to do this and you won't like it. I had Ich in a reef system before and I know what a pain it is to catch the fish and remove them. I have been there and done that. I had to take most of my live rock out and put it in large plastic barrels with saltwater so I could catch all the fish. I then had to stack the live rock back in the tank. Then I had to keep all the fish in a separate tank for four weeks to or more before returning them. None of this was fun! All the more reason to prevent such a scenario with quarantine and other preventive measures!
I can tell you what I would probably do if it were my tank. I would probably see how far feeding garlic to the fish would get me. If you had trouble using garlic maybe you didn't do it correctly. I think it's going to be difficult to completely eliminate Ich from the system by feeding the fish garlic, but the only alternative is to tear all the out of tank and catch the fish. To be as safe as possible you have to eliminate the parasite from the system, add only fish that have been treated and cleaned of infection, and then take every precaution to prevent reintroducing Ich back into the system. Quarantining all-new (fish)additions in hyposalinity is worth serious consideration. Reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and their surroundings environment is a proven way of reducing the effects of stressors. I have extensively studied many scientific journals and books on stress in fish. It is my opinion that hyposalinity causes little if any stress in the vast majority of bony reef fish. As a matter of fact, reducing the salinity helps to lessen the effects of stress. This is due in part to the fact that hydromineral disturbance is inherit to stress in fish. Reducing the salinity in turn makes it easier for fish to recover normal homeostasis quicker.
Terry B

 

[Snail]

TerryB: Out of all your scientific journals has any scientist researched the long term effects of copper or hyposalinity on fish?

From what I've been able to find they have only researched how to kill Cryptocaryon irritans but no one has done a long term study on either of these treatments to see what happens to the fish months-years down the road.


-Snail

 

[Larry M]

Thread closed.

[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 09-18-2000).]