Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[john f]

TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.
The fact that many reefers have had Ich outbreaks with ZERO fish or invertebrate additions in many months (I have several times) would seem to indicate that ich is difficult (I believe impossible) to remove completely from a reef tank. My theory is that even healthy fish that show no outward signs of the parasite can harbor 1 or 2 trophonts which sort of reproduce slowly to create a subclinical infection. This is sort of like staph on your skin. Then when the fish becomes stressed the ich starts to gain the upper hand and a clinical infection is observed.
So quarantine may not help (it NEVER has for me) because the new fish may come in parasite free, but the older fish have enough trophonts on them to start an infection in the new fish if it is stressed.
So the buggers can be obligate parasites and still maintain a subclinical infestation for many months/years after any signs of disease are noted.
I have been on several dive trips where I could find fish with ich on them, and some without. Its always there IMHO, just waiting to attack!!!!

John

 

[jim]

Thanks John. Thats what i always thought.

What do you do to treat fish when you have these outbreaks?

Jim

 

[BrianD]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by john f:
TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This board doesn't have "battles", it has discussions. That is what separates it from others, IMO. I don't know why it is that when Terry posts an opinion on any board people come out of the woodwork to argue with him. It seems that instead of offering anecdotal personal observations, some type of scientific rebuttal would be more useful.

You have two opinions contrary to accepted dogma:

1) ich is also present
2) quarantine isn't necessary/helpful

I would be interested to see some scientific/research papers that support these positions, as opposed to personal "theories".

Brian

 

[Larry M]

I'm not sure I see the importance of knowing whether ich is always present or not. Would you choose a different disease treatment based on that bit of knowledge? You can't treat in a reef tank anyway (at least not proven, IMO) so what's the difference? Does this mean you wouldn't quarantine? That is not the only reason for quaranting anyway.

So why does it matter?

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

 

[BrianD]

Sorry if my previous post sounds grouchy.

It's been one of those weeks (or should I say years?)

Brian

 

[john f]

Brian,
You got one of my positions correct:
1. Ich is always present in a reef tank. Maybe not ALWAYS (strong word) but petty damn close

But I did not say quarantine isn't necessary or helpfull. I said it has never helped me prevent an ICH outbreak. It is a good practice for other things, just not ICH.
Also, I have no idea who Terry B is and did not "Come out of the woodwork" to argue with him. We had a discussion (your word) in another thread and it has carried over into this thread because both are about Crypto.

He advocates hyposalinity (Can't do it in a reef tank anyway) and I advocate elevated temps (can do in reef tank) as a way to stop an ICH outbreak.
He thinks proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks and I do not. These are our disagreements.
Since I have a regular job like most of us I don't really have the time or know how to conduct scientific experiments using controls in order to study this situation. If someone else on this board does I would be glad to assist financially in the undertaking.

John

 

[BrianD]

John, I understand what you are saying. We will just agree to disagree

 

[Terry B]

Hey John,
Call it a battle if you will, but you had better come well armed (well informed). First lets clarify something. I never said that low level infections are not possible. There is a small degree of resistance in some fish that have been previously exposed. If you have a precarious balance between the fish and the parasite anything that tips that balance can cause the infection to manifest and progress. It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay in tack for years. What I said is that it is not always present. It has been proven in clinical trails that Cryptocaryon irritans will die out from a lack of host fish. It can also be eliminated from a system and the fish by correctly administering an effective treatment. As I mentioned in a previous post much of the confusion lays in the fact that most people donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t understand all the ways that Crypt. can be imported.
Staph does not rely on a host fish to survive. It can be found most anywhere like on your cutting board at home, or in an operating room. The word obligate means the pathogen cannot survive by feeding on other things. This means the host must be present. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate pathogen unlike most bacteria.
There is not one single public aquarium to my knowledge that does not strictly practice quarantine, and for good reason. I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine. Ich is always present in nature, but our aquariums are a highly different matter.
I would like to know who you would acknowledge as an authority on this subject. You seem to have dismissed three experts that I have already sited. Would you say the two leading experts in the United States on Aquatic Medicine are not good references? How about Dr. Colorni? Dr. Colorni is considered the leading expert in the world on Cryptocaryon irritans. I do correspond with Dr. Colorni and he is a very nice person. I address many of your questions in an up and coming two-part article that will appear in the near future in FAMA.
I can supply you will scientific journals to look up or books to buy. Can you support any of your contentions in the same manner?
HTH,
Terry B

 

[Outerbank]

Jim, I would see if you could coax your shrimp into a trap or out with some food. I would recommend hyposalinity for treatment according to Terry. This could also potentially rid your system of ich is you do it for 6 weeks or so. Watch your pH and dKh and adjust as needed. I am a big advocate of the hyposalinity but lack the researched info to support it--that's ok for me anyways, so many research studies have a lot of arguable methods and database analysis. It has just worked great for me and the fish did not seem stressed at all. That's my 2 cents of advise and I am not here to argue/discuss about ich presence, appropriate research articles, etc. I will leave that to those that are so willing to study this for us for our benefit.

Scott

 

[Lobster]

Hi Jim. I'm also in Costa Mesa, right near South Coast Plaza.

But anyway, I have found that there are a couple of assumptions you can make that can help you battle ich. First of all, assume that it is always present. Semantics are irrelevant, lets just assume (or pretend depending on your stance) that it is present. Second, assume that the reason the ich has escalated is the existence of a stressor.

With this in mind, you combat ich by subduing the parasites while eliminating the stressor -- the latter of these being the key. Most would agree that eliminating the parasite from the fish without eliminating the stressor is futile, as your fish will likely be reinfested. Find what is stressing your fish, whether it is temperature fluctuations, a dietary deficiency, harassment by a tankmate... whatever. I must say that six months seems a little young to be housing delicate fish, but that's certainly arguable.

I would certainly stay away from medicinal treatment for your main tank, including Melefix (no offense GM). This stuff smells like soap. Anyway, what I would do is continue the garlic treatment with dried nori, and perhaps some soaked in Selcon now and then. Saturating food with garlic lets you concentrate treatment on the fish and not the tank. Also, while I certainly won't say "brocolli is useless" as a food, I will say that you should not rely on it as the only vegetable (or other) matter in your tang's diet. Variety will provide better nutrition.

Anyways, I treated some gobies and wrasse with garlic this way, and the cysts had bailed by the next morning. At the same time I searched for the cause of the stress. I thought it may be stray voltage, so I first added a grounding probe and did a minor water change for good measure. After a couple of days, I stopped the garlic treatment, but the ich began to reappear. Apparently voltage was not the problem, but I noted my temperature fluctuated quite a bit with the onset of summer (as much as 10F, ouch), so I took measures to stabilize it. After straightening that out, I stopped the garlic treatment a few days later, and the ich never showed up again.

As always, this is merely offered for consideration and not intended to serve as "the rule".

 

[john f]

Hey Terry,
Whats your article gonna say: Quarantine all new fish, Keep good water conditions, Minimize stress........WOW, really ground breaking stuff.
The fact that your are well read on this subject does not defacto make your case.

"I have yet to see a single book on fish disease that does not recommend quarantine"

So what, how does that prove your point that proper quarantine will prevent ICH outbreaks?

I have not had ICH for over a year in my 135 (this is the only tank I have had problems, out of several) I also have in quarantine 2 pyramid butterfly fish which have shown no outward signs of disease for 2 months.
Want to bet that when I add them to my 135 which has a large, nasty tomato clownfish, they will get ICH?

If Dr Colorni is such an expert on Crypto. why can't he come up with a reef safe remedy for outbreaks? Because he dosn't know how, thats why.

"It is highly unlikely that the balance will stay intact for years" Do you have any proof of this? Sounds like speculation to me.

Terry,
Lets cut to the chase. Do you advocate hyposalinity for treatment IN THE REEF TANK?
If not it is pointless to advocate it at all for many reefers. Many of us will simply not tear apart a longstanding reef system in order to catch all the fish for treatment in another tank.

What we need is a reliable, in tank treatment. I believe this can be found.

I also think an expert in any disease is the guy who knows how to cure it, not simply describe it. So bring on all your references and pointy headed scholars. Not one of them has a reef safe treatment for ICH, and I am telling you from 10+ years keeping reefs that elevated temps have worked with greater than moderate (but not total) success for me.

Come up with a better method and I will try it. I always have an open mind, unlike some

John

[This message has been edited by john f (edited 09-15-2000).]

 

[jim]

Thanks for all the advice.

I am now feeding my fish a combination of formula 1 & 2, Angel formula, brine shrimp, Broccoli, Nori and spirulina flakes.

The house is air conditioned / heated so temp only changes @ 1 degree per day.

The stressor may be harassment from other fish, but it is not really directed toward either sick fish.

I do agree that I should have waited longer to put these two fish into this young tank.

I am in the process of lowering my salinity to 1.009 for 4-6 weeks. This should take a week.

I am trying to catch my 3 shrimp with an acrylic trap, but may have to sacrifice them if they can't be caught in the next week.

Also, since my tank is only 1/2 stocked, I may have other outbreaks. I know people on this board don't like copper, but it is much easier to administer than hypo, expecially in ongoing problems. I will try the hypo this time, but next time . . who knows.


Jim

 

[Larry M]

John--I think you are out of line with your approach to this discussion. I don't see anywhere that Terry claimed to be an expert. What I have seen him do is help many people over the years save their fish. Not everyone agrees with his approaches, that is fine. But I have seen countless posts from hobbyists thanking him for his advice which saved their fish.

Until you can produce something other than "this works for me" I don't think you have any room to talk.

If you wish to disagree, you are most welcome to. If you want to attack for no good purpose, that will make you not welcome here very fast.

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

 

[Phishmon]

Your Powder blue is most likely fighting a little with the naso and yellows
they tend to fight for territory
also Powders get HUGE
and tend to be ich magnets in any size system

the personifer is prolly being stressed out by the flame angel
since it is new to the sysem
they will arrive at a pecking order eventually

were the yellow tangs added before or after the powder blue???
pairs of yellow tangs are more aggressive than odd numbered schools


you can help break up the territories
by feeding Nori (seaweed for sushi rolls)
on different clips and attached to rocks with rubberbands
(we call them Nori bombs) sorry garf we trademarked that term

this allows the angels and tangs to feed in seperate areas
they will get more food and it will be less stressful
broccoli isnt really doing much but passing through thier systems with litle nutritional value
I dont care what anyone says it is not helpful even for HLLE

using the garlic will help
boosting the immune sysem is key
but the problem here is stress (MOST LIKELY)
Iit sounds like stress from the system or other fish not a personal thing
all tangs and angels are exposed to chemicals after collection that doesnt help the personifer much

selcon is good to add to the foods for boosting the system

you dont mention your salinity at that temperature your running
just curious
low salinities in systems for long periods of time will stress the fish out also

as for hyposalinity

not a good idea in a tank with invertebrates
not just the cleaners are the verts
the rock may as well be considered as well
the critters in the sand bed will
populate the rocks


also I wouldthig about gettig more life i the sand bed
since ich is part of the meiofauna of the system
it contributes to that small but huge food chain for the little critters of our system



HTH


[This message has been edited by Phishmon (edited 09-15-2000).]

 

[john f]

Fine Larry, I'll give in.
I don't think if you read my posts they were EVER attacking Terry. I was having a discussion about some advice I disagree with.
I have been visiting and posting to this site for quite some time and just because I disagree with Terry on this issue does not make me out of line. We probably agree on 99% of all issues so I do not see Terry as my enemy. I am simply trying to debate a point.
In his last post I thought he was rather rude and arrogant in his reply to me. He seems to think because he knows people or writes an article for FAMA (my neighbor has done that) that his position is correct.

Let me clarify my points one last time before I go, maybe to never post again (I'm sure that would break you up Larry)

1> Ich is ALMOST always present in REEF tanks containing several fish, even if no recent addition have been made.

2> Hyposalinity is NOT a valid treatment IN the REEF tank itself.

3>Elevated temps have worked well FOR ME.
They are not a 100% cure all, but have helped ME.

If you or anyone else wants to show me articles which prove either 1 or 2 wrong, please do so.

As for #3 this is just my anecdotal observation so I do not expect it to be accepted as fact.

I do not doubt Terry gives lots of great advice and I do not question his knowledge or credentials. I simply disagree on these key issues and attemped to debate him on these. Nothing more.
Sorry to have offended you sensabilities.

See you at MACNA???

John

 

[billsreef]

Jim,
I think Phishmon hit nail on the head for the stressors. Watch their behavior closely, you might need to make some decisions on who to keep and who to take out for the sake of long term stability.

John,
I think you'll find that Terry advocates methods that come very close to 100% cure rates. The secret to an Ich free tank (yes I do believe this is possible) comes from rigorous quarantine from day one and fish #1 as any fish that is not Q'd can be a carrier. Also I think if you were to ask Terry for his list of references, rather than attack them, he would be glad to provide them. If you get those references from Biosystems and read them I think you will find that Terry does indeed research his info quite well.

As to reef safe remedies I haven't seen one yet that is truly reliable over a broad range of instances. The reason that is so difficult to find a reliable reef safe remedy is that so far anything that can reliably kill ich also has a negative impact on inverts, I don't see how this invalidates Dr. Colorni's information. As for 86F for treating ich, I have seen it infect fish at those temps without effecting a cure and to go much higher than that will also have a negative effect on many inverts.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos
ICQ 56222784

 

[Biosystems]

Not that I think it is any point to keep arguing or giving the appearance of ganging up on John-but I will get the articles to him this weekend and he will see that the published optimal temp for crypto is 30C; however, that does not make him wrong.


There is more to his temperature theory than anecdotal evidence that crypto is killed at high temps. It has been used in the past with success and has been published as such-for certain types of fish it is safe. I only argue that I do not think that fish should be subjected to these temps for the reasons stated in the other post.


Anyway, maybe we can write up a summary of the info that I send him, instead of all this bickering.


Tim

 

[Doug]

Hi Jim,

All of the others have given great advice but I just wanted to share what I have done to treat my sick fish with some limited success and also offer my opinion on fish and ich.

Whenever I would see the first sign of ich on my fish I would start feeding them food soaked in Selcon. While I do not have any scientific background I have had some good success using this product. I have treated at least five fish using Selcon over the last couple of years and have had an 80% success rate. These were mild cases of ich (I say mild cases because the fish were still eating well) on the fish which I detected early on but it did seem to work very well for me.

Here are some of the reasons that I have used Selcon over other treatment methods.
With the way my tanks are setup I would have to remove all of the rock and corals to catch a sick fish so the q-tank option is not an option for me. Also, I have not had ich (knock on wood) since I learned of Terry's hyposalinity method so I have never had to use it and cannot comment. While I did try copper a long while back in a hospital tank I ended up killing all of the fish I was treating because of some bad advice on the copper level and a bad test kit. As far as the reef safe products I just do not feel safe using a that type of product. Not because they do not work but because it is something that I do not feel safe with myself.

It seems to go back to what both Phil and Bill said about stress and the immune system. Although fish and people are very different we see the problems that stress can cause on the human body and in other amimals.

So, just from my own observation it does seem that vitamin supplments such as Selcon can help a fish recover from illness but as long as the stress is still in the tank the fish will never fully recover no matter how much we try to boost the immune system. I also feel that some fish are better able to deal with stress than others. I have seen a tank with damsels chase and nip each other and live without illness for a long time and I have also seen a coral beauty chase a flame angel to illness and death in a short period of time. So not only do we need to deal with stress in general it seems, from my observation, that the type of fish is a factor in how much stress will affect a particular fish.

Again, this is just my opinion and I hope it just may give you a little more info and help in treating your sick fish.

As far as if ich is in our tanks at all times or not, I have no clue and cannot prove it either way so I can't comment. All I care about is providing my animals with the best enviorment possible in captivity and treating them in the best way I can if they do become ill. No matter what the cause of the illness is the main thing that I am concerned with is the recovery of the animal and hopefully minimizing the change of the illness occuring again.

Best wishes Jim and I hope everything works out not matter what you choose to do.

Doug

------------------
Doug's Reef and Fish Page

Before you break the door down with an axe, try the doorknob first!

 

[Lobster]

Phishmon sounds right on the money. Separate feeding areas is a great idea.

I've never heard of anyone claiming Selcon directly fighting ich, but like Doug said, its good stuff. I suppose its entirely possible that the stressor could be an improper diet, so taking steps to rule this out (which it sounds like you are) is a really good thing.

As I said above, fight the ich AND the stressor and you're on the right track.

Treating the tank via hyposalinity or medication just seems like a bad idea to me, but this is merely opinion. Yes, shifting salinity may very well knock the cysts off, but I would worry that the salinity change could cause the inhabitants (sick or not) even further stress.

Regarding the in-tank ich treatment - dont hold your breath. Even if one does show up, I wouldnt pour the assumably vile substance in my reef until a 5-10 year track record proved it had absolutely NO effect on anything other than ich, which is highly unlikely.

Good luck, Jim!

 

[O'Man]

I thought that the goal of elevated temp. was to increase respiration and therefore "speed-up" the ick's lifecycle. I remember reading that ick treatments tended to work best when the ick was in the free swimming and not the cyst stage. A faster life cycle ment less time in the cyst stage and more opportunity to attack it while it was free swimming. I always figured it was a gamble to see if you could knock-off more of it that the quantity that came back and attached to the fish.... maybe this is outdated info or just an old wives tale. Got me

Also, reducing stressors and using cleaner shrimp to keep the ick in check while the fish's immune system goes to work, has worked for me. Not 100%, but it has kept the losses to a minimum. Fish in an understocked, stress free tank seem to do best.