Another "Get off my lawn" moment from the washed-up: ULNS??

[MammothReefer]

Seems there are 2 topics here. Bulb colour, and ULNS. To me I prefer 20k. I don't care how my corals look in sunlight or 6500k. I don't view my corals in that spectrum so it means nothing to me. The coolest thing about corals imop is how they fluoresce and display vibrant vivid colours under different lighting situations which is based on how the pigmentation reacts to said spectrum. Sometimes I like to view my corals under pure actinics and watch the greens or reds just POP, or even a black light for more fun! I feel a lot of the issues people have with Zeo tanks isn't the result of Zeo. It's an issue with colour combinations of T5 bulbs that tends to trend with Zeo users.

My colours can use some work but overall I'm happy for non-carbon dosed tank. I don't know if I'm "ULNS". I would say proboly not but I'm not a heavy feeder. I stopped testing nitrates and phosphates as they were always running @ 0 but I see algae and even the occasional cyano break outs now and then.


I'd go into the whole photo discussion but it's nothing new. There are ways to make corals pop and it's not fake, and there are ways to fake colour and make it look real. Top down view will always display better coluration then threw the glass. However so much of it just has to do with coral selection and arrangement.

FTS colours look "OK" but that's pretty much how it looks minus the black clipping in the shadows.

Top down shot (cropped for bulb reflection). Colours just pop..and that's how it looks when you look down except in real life we don't clip highlights like our camera.

Could I improve the colours by going back to carbon dosing and then feeding more.. Yah proboly. Is it worth the extra layer of complexity. I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Do my corals look starved since I feed less and WC more or is that something reserved for Carbon users?

 

[Moser]

Mo, it came right out of his own thread. I may be looking at it wrong, but if he preferred Zeo and paler corals wouldn't he have gone back to it? If I inferred incorrectly that he liked the deeper colors better it may have been his choice in word grouping.

No, he preferred the simplicity of pellets.
He ran Zeo for several years, but said he was always looking for new challenges.
I think he was about the first to try NP Biopellets.

I had these conversations with him, before trying pellets myself. I think he was quite clear in stating how well Zeo works, but I am sure that we would all agree that in his hands,all methods would work?!.

I am not sure whether those in this thread claiming that Zeo adds nothing to other methods have tried Zeo?. I have and it clearly is a powerful nutrient control technique. Coral colours are definitely more intense. Some may call this un-natural, others like it. It certainly can be tweaked to ones liking by adjusting supplements. Those users that have mastered it, have exceptional results that are unmatched by any other technique.

What puzzles me is that to knock it, you really should have working knowledge of it and if you did, you would realise that the claim of these results being produced simply by adding blue light is completely absurd......

Here's an example of a Zeovit tank that has always impressed me…. Corals are all growing and healthy, with no signs of starvation. There is a mix of T5 lighting, with plenty of white tubes in the mix. I'm sure you will agree that coral colours pop. This is not just a lighting phenomenon. Nutrients are tightly processed in this tank and Zeovit suppplements are fed in huge quantities, but spaced to weekly dosing for most that are used. If you added the doses of ZeoSpur2 that Jan uses to your tank, I could almost guarantee a coral wipeout!, so clearly his Zeo sups are working to support the huge coral mass.



Mo

 

[ryanrid]

Seems there are 2 topics here. Bulb colour, and ULNS. To me I prefer 20k. I don't care how my corals look in sunlight or 6500k. I don't view my corals in that spectrum so it means nothing to me. The coolest thing about corals imop is how they fluoresce and display vibrant vivid colours under different lighting situations which is based on how the pigmentation reacts to said spectrum. Sometimes I like to view my corals under pure actinics and watch the greens or reds just POP, or even a black light for more fun! I feel a lot of the issues people have with Zeo tanks isn't the result of Zeo. It's an issue with colour combinations of T5 bulbs that tends to trend with Zeo users.

My colours can use some work but overall I'm happy for non-carbon dosed tank. I don't know if I'm "ULNS". I would say proboly not but I'm not a heavy feeder. I stopped testing nitrates and phosphates as they were always running @ 0 but I see algae and even the occasional cyano break outs now and then.


I'd go into the whole photo discussion but it's nothing new. There are ways to make corals pop and it's not fake, and there are ways to fake colour and make it look real. Top down view will always display better coluration then threw the glass. However so much of it just has to do with coral selection and arrangement.

FTS colours look "OK" but that's pretty much how it looks minus the black clipping in the shadows.

Top down shot (cropped for bulb reflection). Colours just pop..and that's how it looks when you look down except in real life we don't clip highlights like our camera.

Could I improve the colours by going back to carbon dosing and then feeding more.. Yah proboly. Is it worth the extra layer of complexity. I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

Do my corals look starved since I feed less and WC more or is that something reserved for Carbon users?

Your tank looks great, agreed carbon dosing is much more complex and risky, if anything you could try zeo b balance for some added frontal vibrancy.

 

[Allmost]

I think Krystof's results show that both systems give similar results. After several years on zeo I am thinking of changing to pellets due to work travel and getting sore knees kneeling to pump the rx, if i do this i will continue to use sups such at B bal (best zeo sup IMO) K, xtra etc.

lol I hear u about the sore knee

but are you going to use GFO with pellets ? do you use GFO now with zeo ?

 

[Allmost]

How do dosing guidelines work for things like biopellets?

Feeding (amount of N and P to remove by heterotrophs), bioload, etc. all play a role in how much labile C should be dosed.

What happens to the extra C if something else limits the bacteria?

thank you, that is what I mean about flexibility and ....

not everyone likes that extra control though.

 

[NeilFox]

Your tank looks great, agreed carbon dosing is much more complex and risky, if anything you could try zeo b balance for some added frontal vibrancy.

I honestly don't think you can get more colour than this. Healthy looking corals!

On a side note. I have noticed that many Zeo tanks seem to follow a common theme. Minimal Live Rock, and often Times a blue background with white sand. More often than not, dry rock is used (very white oftentimes). This has a tendancy to show the corals in an almost clinical environment. It may even give the illusion of the corals being more pastel than they are. I understand that many reefers strive for this look. There are a number of tanks that have pulled it off with stunning success. Then there are a good number of hobbists who go full on Zeo without having the experience to know where to tweek it. Some of these are nice also, but more often than not, what you see is a bunch of bleached out frag plugs sitting on pieces of white rock. Given time of course they will grow out but there is a phase where it looks very artificial where this approach is taken.

Zeovit tanks have an obvious appeal to some people, where others are drawn to more conventional systems. I like the look of Mammoths tank. Full on growth like a coral jungle. I prefer it to the manicured look. I like to see coraline on the pumps and overflows. Those of the Zeo school love the look of clean glass and pristene sand it seems. All you need to do is look at a Zeo build thread to understand what I am talking about. I like this also but it isn;t my preference. The same way some people prefer classic luxury cars and others like Ferrari's. Just different

 

[Allmost]

I honestly don't think you can get more colour than this. Healthy looking corals!

On a side note. I have noticed that many Zeo tanks seem to follow a common theme. Minimal Live Rock, and often Times a blue background with white sand. More often than not, dry rock is used (very white oftentimes). This has a tendancy to show the corals in an almost clinical environment. It may even give the illusion of the corals being more pastel than they are. I understand that many reefers strive for this look. There are a number of tanks that have pulled it off with stunning success. Then there are a good number of hobbists who go full on Zeo without having the experience to know where to tweek it. Some of these are nice also, but more often than not, what you see is a bunch of bleached out frag plugs sitting on pieces of white rock. Given time of course they will grow out but there is a phase where it looks very artificial where this approach is taken.

Zeovit tanks have an obvious appeal to some people, where others are drawn to more conventional systems. I like the look of Mammoths tank. Full on growth like a coral jungle. I prefer it to the manicured look. I like to see coraline on the pumps and overflows. Those of the Zeo school love the look of clean glass and pristene sand it seems. All you need to do is look at a Zeo build thread to understand what I am talking about. I like this also but it isn;t my preference. The same way some people prefer classic luxury cars and others like Ferrari's. Just different

okay you are confusing things here.

cleaning glass, washing your power heads, the color of background, and type of rocks used have NOTHING TO DO WOTH ZEOVIT

deciding on alot of live rock, or the minimalistic aquascape does not show the filtration ....


there is no where in zeo guide saying next color the background blue, then place white sand, then clean glass and pumps .. lol

come on my friend what does that have to do with the filtration ? you are making a very funny generalization here, that Zeovit = blue background, therefore u dont like it ? lol

like I mean, i scrape the back glass of my tank weekly, if I stop, will my tank be none-zeo ?
here is my old tank .... corals growing to glass on each side, and full of coraline and alot of Live rock.



this was a Zeo tank .... for my new tank, I decided more open to allow fish to swim easier. I really like Mammoth's reef [specially since he also has dealth with AEFW and still has such nice corals], but background color doesnt show what filtration is used.

I do agree with one comment in your post, and that is the fact that many Zeovut users are not comfortable and dont know the system that well. I see that daily and get Emails and PMs daily about it. some people just want to know how many drops ... nothing deeper. for them, zeovit is not the right path.

 

[karsseboom]

yes I ran zeo on a tank for 8 months.. so yes I know the costs of setting up and running it..

you seem to get quite offended when someone disagrees with you.. but ill leave this conversation.. theres no point in corresponding with someone like you.. open up your mind to other possibilities and stop being so short sighted..

all I said is they don't look natural.. our lighting system manipulates the colors.. why... so people can make $$.. im not saying its a gimmick as a lot of the ideas behind it I agree with...

got any pics of a zeo tank under natural sunlight? with 0 actinic supplementation???

I'm not defending zeovit. I don't care what people think about zeovit, but to say zeovit is mostly snake oil and lighting is the reason is very ignorant.

Nobody views there tank under 6k lighting so that's irrelevant, Lps tanks aren't using 6k lighting either.

 

[NeilFox]

okay you are confusing things here.

cleaning glass, washing your power heads, the color of background, and type of rocks used have NOTHING TO DO WOTH ZEOVIT

deciding on alot of live rock, or the minimalistic aquascape does not show the filtration ....


there is no where in zeo guide saying next color the background blue, then place white sand, then clean glass and pumps .. lol

come on my friend what does that have to do with the filtration ? you are making a very funny generalization here, that Zeovit = blue background, therefore u dont like it ? lol

like I mean, i scrape the back glass of my tank weekly, if I stop, will my tank be none-zeo ?
here is my old tank .... corals growing to glass on each side, and full of coraline and alot of Live rock.



this was a Zeo tank .... for my new tank, I decided more open to allow fish to swim easier. I really like Mammoth's reef [specially since he also has dealth with AEFW and still has such nice corals], but background color doesnt show what filtration is used.

I do agree with one comment in your post, and that is the fact that many Zeovut users are not comfortable and dont know the system that well. I see that daily and get Emails and PMs daily about it. some people just want to know how many drops ... nothing deeper. for them, zeovit is not the right path.

I thought that my post may be confusing. I wasn't making a generalization for Zeovit. I just notice that alot of people that get into Zeo have a tendancy to follow a similiar pattern. Not everyone. I like your tank also I believe I have commented on it. I was just looking through the Zeovit forum a little bit and saw alot of what I described. There are also superb tanks there. I just get the impression that diehard Zeovit users are a little like Jeep owners. The way Zeo tanks are displayed is what Zeo users strive for. A certain colouration and certain look. I know that the manual doesn't say to do all these things, I think that the average Zeo user would tend to be more of a perfectionist though. No right or wrong. I like the look of old school tanks. I also like classic sailing yachts. Some people like powerboats. BTW, my tank has a blue background also LOL...

 

[galleon]

So do you guys see gradual reduction of film and hair algae? Do you feed anything other than your fish?

In the interest of full disclosure, I dose 0.25 mL/gal/day of 5% strength white vinegar in my system.

 

[sirreal63]

This may not answer your questions but it may help. I don't claim ULNS but I have gone down that path, although unintentionally. When I first started pellets in the summer of 2010 I managed to strip the tank of all no3 and po4, it was so bad my chaeto dissolved, I could go weeks between glass cleanings, no algae of any kind just a surface biofilm on glass. Next the corals all started to get very pale. I took all but a 1/4 of the pellets out and fed even heavier and things became manageable.

I have been carbon dosing since 2005 but just enough to keep no3 and po4 to the levels I wanted. I strive to keep the po4 at around .04 and no3 about 5. I have no hair algae, some cyano that comes and goes amd am fighting Valonia again. I usually have a good idea of my nutrient leveles just from the algae on the glass which is usually confirmed with testing. The biggest issue I have had is the lack of nitrates since I did the last acid bath on the rock and restarted the tank. Po4 has been manageable with GFO and I have been feeding my seafood mush heavier lately. I am only dosing a little vinegar about twice a month to keep the nitrates at that target of 5.

I have never minded a little algae, it is a very good barometer of nutrient levels. I try not to recommend what I do to others, but for my tank it has worked and I have been doing it this way for many years.

I feed a mix of fresh seafood that I make about once a year. A fourth of the ingredients are as finely puréed as my blender can make it, the bulk is fine chopped for the fish. I feed about an 1/8 a cup every other day, throught the day, just as much at a time as the fish can eat. With five small fish it is a lot of food but the inverts also eat well. It also shuts the skimmer down for hours.

I won't claim to have all the answers, I just know what works for me.

 

[ryanrid]

lol I hear u about the sore knee

but are you going to use GFO with pellets ? do you use GFO now with zeo ?

I don't use gfo now I use full zeo and only zeo and have on 3 tanks for about 4.5 years now. I would not use gfo with the pellets either if I go that way

 

[ryanrid]

So do you guys see gradual reduction of film and hair algae? Do you feed anything other than your fish?

In the interest of full disclosure, I dose 0.25 mL/gal/day of 5% strength white vinegar in my system.

Once the system is matured (between 6-12 months typically) there is reduction n film and no hair algae, this is when corals can become pale as a lot of zeo tanks can start looking washed out. This is when observation and skill is required in a zeo tank IMO as then you can't really follow a guide. Reduction in the carbon source (start) reduction in flow rates thru the rx and manipulation of enhancers, additional feelings etc are required to have a healthy system

A lot of ppl don't last to this stage in the era of instant reefing

 

[galleon]

Heh, interesting. My motivations for carbon dosing aren't ULNS, I have Spirobranchus that have been thriving for 6 months, without shrinking or losing color. I have to speculatively attribute it to bacteria from carbon dosing.

 

[MammothReefer]

Heh, interesting. My motivations for carbon dosing aren't ULNS, I have Spirobranchus that have been thriving for 6 months, without shrinking or losing color. I have to speculatively attribute it to bacteria from carbon dosing.

Hmm that's interesting. Is that there primary means of feeding? I had some for 1-2 years now. However only recently did I start to see a decline in them (but still alive). I attributed it to fish or the additional of peppermint shrimps to my tank but to be honest I don't pay much attention to them.

http://www.pbase.com/brahm/image/143590912.jpg

 

[MammothReefer]

I think the point NeilFox was trying to make is there is a specific type of Reefer whom is attracted to the Zeo program, and they tend to trend along a similar path. A stereo type per-say? It really depends on how you were introduced to that method. If you see an tank that is and happens to use Zeo tanks we then try to emulate the results which is why you see a lot of Zeo tanks using similar equipment and having a similar look and feel between tanks, of course there are always exceptions, and it's not just limited to Zeo.

Can any of you say you didn't try to scape a tank with a canyon after seeing Steve Weast setup for the first time?

For me, my inspiration has always been Scarab's 100g setup. He was just using GFO/Carbon having amazing success and a huge fish list.. Looking at it again after all these years I still have a ways to go, not to mention he was pulling this off '05. It's just how the hobby/trends go.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465440&pp=25

What was this topic about again?

 

[NeilFox]

Thanks for clarifying my post Mammoth. That is the point I was trying to make. I don't think I said anywhere that I don't like Zeo tanks as was suggested earlier.

I always loved the look of Scarab's reef. There are some pics of his reef in the Worlds Best Aquariums thread. I honestly think your pretty much there Mammoth. Funny, it seems like we are never 100% happy with our own stuff.

 

[ryanrid]

Thanks for clarifying my post Mammoth. That is the point I was trying to make. I don't think I said anywhere that I don't like Zeo tanks as was suggested earlier.

I always loved the look of Scarab's reef. There are some pics of his reef in the Worlds Best Aquariums thread. I honestly think your pretty much there Mammoth. Funny, it seems like we are never 100% happy with our own stuff.

Agree mammoth your on par with that tank.

Also agree never 100%happy with your own tank

 

[Allmost]

I don't use gfo now I use full zeo and only zeo and have on 3 tanks for about 4.5 years now. I would not use gfo with the pellets either if I go that way

thanks for repeating what I said lol

please find me 1 pellet user that doesnt run GFO.

 

[Allmost]

Heh, interesting. My motivations for carbon dosing aren't ULNS, I have Spirobranchus that have been thriving for 6 months, without shrinking or losing color. I have to speculatively attribute it to bacteria from carbon dosing.

ULNS is the wrong word in general ... with carbon dosing, you lock up nutrients in bacteria ... so its not free for algae to take up .... but corals can still take up bacteria ...

the term ULNS scares alot of ppl ... but there is still N and P in system ... just locked up in biomass. Edible biomass [bacteria]