Another sad article on our ocean's health...

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12994719#post12994719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nicholas89
the introduction to that film alone looks like one giant scare tactic.

example...the massive unnecessary explosions.

I remember when people were 'shocked' by the violence in Robocop and Robocop2, or Saving Private Ryan for instance. Is it a 'scare tactic' or a 'wakeup call'? I suppose our predispositions here in the US (where we have been exposed to more 'anti environmentalist marketing' than anywhere else in the world) would be to scoff at anything seen as 'liberal'. Who knows, it could just be a reality that you aren't aware of in your daily activities. Im sure if you were in Iraq for a day, you would also be 'shocked' by many things, but that doesn't make it any less real.

The thing I find absurd about the conservative based scoffing at the idea of global warming is WHY!?!?! What does it hurt to simply go with the idea? It wouldnt really change anything... its not like its some great burden or anything. Recently, former secretary of state, James Baker has 'defected' on the grounds that the Bush should accept global warming and get Cheney's hand out of his @$$. He cites getting off oil (by switching to electric cars) is the way to go... for plenty of other reasons including national security. Many oil companies which also used to contribute to the 'anti-global warming' marketing companies have now switched sides. It seems like some people are just being stubborn, because I cant think of any negatives of 'being green'.

 

[TXAlbert]

these right wing nut jobs, rofl

 

[billsreef]

Got to keep the politics out of it

 

[Nicholas89]

I'm sorry, but I don't see the connection to robocop.

 

[hahnmeister]

It was a violent movie when it came out... jarred alot of people with its 'gritty violence'... it was one of those movies that took some desensitizing to get used to.

Im just saying, its all a matter of perspective... some people cant see their own death coming until its too late.

 

[Kannin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995474#post12995474 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
What does it hurt to simply go with the idea? It wouldnt really change anything... its not like its some great burden or anything.

It is a huge burden to have the government overstep their bounds. They are using this overblown crisis to get us to willingly give up more liberty. We will never get our liberties back, once they are taken.

The real concern should be that, China will be allowed to quadruple their already alarming pollution rate over the next decade... while my government slaps me with a gas guzzeler tax on my pickup or a usage tax on my power bill because my reef tank puts me over the limit for a family with 2.4 children. Wait 'til they outlaw barbeques. It's only a matter of time before they will be taking more and more from us if we say " What does it hurt to simply go with they idea?"

I wonder if the Jews wished they hadn't just gone along with the idea! How about those dolphins in that other thread that are getting their throats slit in Japan. There's one for ya... We pay more for dolphin safe tuna so that the Japanese can catch them and sell tuna safe dolphin.

 

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12983861#post12983861 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

I love the rising cost of oil actually. I hear $7 a gallon by 2010. I think this, along with the awareness that pumping $1 billion a day into the middle east for 1/3 of our oil ISNT good for national security will provide the incentives needed to migrate to other technologies.

Actually, the high oil prices mean that we're paying more for the same amount of gas. More of our treasure finds it's way overseas, and into the hands of Hebollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, President Chavez, and the Saudi royal family. We aren't buying significantly less oil than last year. If you want "high oil prices" to "hurt the middle east" then you should support more domestic drilling. We have the natural resources to cut our imports by at least half in 5-10 years. Mix that with new strict fuel economy standards, and tax credits for hybrid electric vehicles, and we'll import even less.

If you like high gas prices so that your fellow americans "feel the pain" then you're an arrogant jerk. I could never ever find delight in someone else's misery, even those people that don't agree with me or live the way that I feel they should. There are people out there who will not be able to afford to heat their homes this winter.

IMO the immediate future is the plug-in hybrids and diesels coming out of Japan and Germany. PHEV cars can go for 60 miles on a charge before using the gas engine. Diesel cars can run for 50 miles per gallon or more. Hell, my buddy's Jetta TDI gets in the 40's easy. I don't think americans are ready to give up the range and flexibility of a gas car yet.

 

[hahnmeister]

Yes, and what I am asking is, what exactly are those 'great burdens' and liberties that we would be giving up? I havent seen anything of that nature. If anything, as a nation, we would renew our own security by adopting renewable energies more, and as individuals, we would be removing government more from our daily lives (less taxes, control over our energy on a smaller, perhaps even individual scale). How are we giving up liberties exactly? Environmental regulations perhaps, but that fosters in a whole new market in itself of 'green technology'... not exactly a setback. Many of the goals and regulations are beint reached by companies and consumers simply through their own demand. If anything, in the past, government incentives have always pushed us into oil on many levels... taxes, public transportation, etc. This is what 'takes away our liberties' more than anything. It isnt right that there are $100,000 in tax credits for someone buying a Hummer, and only $5000 to someone buying an electric vehicle. So perhaps that sort of 'stacking the deck' will have to change, but thats about it.

So what are these 'liberties that we are being fooled into giving up'... do they even exist? So if I go out and buy a Venture One, a Tesla, or a ZAP Alias, and buy a set of solar panels for my roof to charge it with... doesnt that restore my personal liberty? I would never have to pay for gas again perhaps, and maybe pay a fraction for upkeep as well (electric cars have only a dozen or so moving parts compared to the thousand or more for an IC engine... upkeep is minimal with electric).

A 'gas guzzler' tax, or a usage tax on your power bill? Dont you pay more tax (the percentage of the gas you buy) in a free-market anyways? Power bill regulation like that is something that the power company decides on, not the government. If everyone in your area had a reef tank, the power grid would have to be updated...

 

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12999066#post12999066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Power bill regulation like that is something that the power company decides on, not the government. If everyone in your area had a reef tank, the power grid would have to be updated...

If the government installs a "cap and trade" system, they will decide exactly how much energy a plant should or should not pollute, and thus how much power they can generate.

Unfortunately "green" energy is still relatively rare and expensive. This will inevitably raise the cost of energy to everyone, eventually raising the cost of food and other essentials through the roof. It will cost the economy trillions, money that has to come from somewhere, and it will be "all of us".

Let's see if you still agree with this when you have to shut down your reef tank because of the cost. Even if you're filthy rich, you're going to feel the effect on your personal lifestyle somewhere.

 

[hahnmeister]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12999049#post12999049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BigJay
Actually, the high oil prices mean that we're paying more for the same amount of gas. More of our treasure finds it's way overseas, and into the hands of Hebollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, President Chavez, and the Saudi royal family. We aren't buying significantly less oil than last year. If you want "high oil prices" to "hurt the middle east" then you should support more domestic drilling. We have the natural resources to cut our imports by at least half in 5-10 years. Mix that with new strict fuel economy standards, and tax credits for hybrid electric vehicles, and we'll import even less.

If you like high gas prices so that your fellow americans "feel the pain" then you're an arrogant jerk. I could never ever find delight in someone else's misery, even those people that don't agree with me or live the way that I feel they should. There are people out there who will not be able to afford to heat their homes this winter.

IMO the immediate future is the plug-in hybrids and diesels coming out of Japan and Germany. PHEV cars can go for 60 miles on a charge before using the gas engine. Diesel cars can run for 50 miles per gallon or more. Hell, my buddy's Jetta TDI gets in the 40's easy. I don't think americans are ready to give up the range and flexibility of a gas car yet.

My suggestion wasnt that the higher price would decrease demand for oil. Oil has been proven too elastic, and somewhat of a monopolistic good in the first place (lacks alternatives right now) to behave like that. The solution is alternatives... electric, hydrogen cell, bio diesel, etc. Then demand for oil goes down, and we are no longer sending money overseas.

More domesting drilling is somewhat of a 'dream'. By the time we could add the few more thousand drilling rigs to boost production enough in our own country (it would take somewhere between 3000 and 5000 more oil rigs), we will only be making a small dent in what may be a $10/gallon price. So what... $8 a gallon then (it takes time to get the rigs up, its not just 'flipping a switch') instead of $10 a gallon? Not good. And then what happens when that starts running out? Back to square one.

As for the 'arrogant jerk' comment... Ill let it slide. I too pay more, and have adapted. My point was that for such a long time, Americans have had just that attutude... that we deserve cheap gas. Its not like we are paying more than any other country in the world... UK is up at about $6+ a gallon... has been for a while. Perhaps their awareness and adoption of higher fuel economy standards has allowed them to be more prepped than we are, rather than buying huge SUV's just to cart one person around. Perhaps we as a nation have been 'arrogant' for too long, and this is our wakeup call.

 

[BigJay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12999139#post12999139 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister

As for the 'arrogant jerk' comment... Ill let it slide. I too pay more, and have adapted. My point was that for such a long time, Americans have had just that attutude... that we deserve cheap gas. Its not like we are paying more than any other country in the world... UK is up at about $6+ a gallon... has been for a while. Perhaps their awareness and adoption of higher fuel economy standards has allowed them to be more prepped than we are, rather than buying huge SUV's just to cart one person around. Perhaps we as a nation have been 'arrogant' for too long, and this is our wakeup call.

Hey now, I drive a Prius and pay maybe $28.00 every two weeks to drive over 400 miles. I didn't buy the car because I think I'm smug or better/smarter than other people. I bought it to put a teeny tiny dent in the Saudi prince Abdullah's wallet. Besides, I like driving 20-30 miles to that far-off LFS on a whim. Stupid? Wasteful? Probably, but fish and corals are my "thing".

The "wake up call" that these "arrogant americans" are going to get is severe by any standard. Ask anyone that uses heating oil what they plan to do this winter. Food prices are projected to go up another 20% this year too. Even those without big evil SUVs are going to go really cold and hungry in a few months. I really feel for those families who are already on the edge, because things are going to get much worse. Only a real jerk would sit and gloat in their faces. Not that I think you are, I'm just saying. A little empathy doesn't hurt.

 

[hahnmeister]

Im not gloating, Im simply stating that the US has been living a dream that is not realistic, and now the reality that the rest of the world faces is coming to us. Severe? Maybe, but do you think it would work if it was any less? Gas prices have had to double for even a small decrease in demand or to warrant enough 'shock' to start looking into alternatives seriously... oil's own elasticity, and our consumerism has had a huge role in this, and the current problems have been developing for a long time. We could have been working on this a long time ago, but we didnt... who can you blame really? Now we lie in the bed we made.

"Unfortunately "green" energy is still relatively rare and expensive." -BigJay

ORLY? Yes, there is an 'up front' investment, but in the long run, it easily pays for itself, and ends up being cheaper. What can you do now? Well, a buddy of mine was asked by his power company when he lived in Texas if he would like to pay into a 'wind power' development program. He was for it, so he paid in... something like 20% more for a couple years. A few years later, he moved to Wisconsin... and a short time later, he got a letter from the power company in TX. It thanked him for his investment, and not only had it worked, but it was producing power for less $$$ than a normal power plant. The result in his investment is that he now pays 20% less for electricity FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. The company in TX transfers his savings to the company in WI for him even (he paid, so he should get the reward, no?). More expensive? I dont think so. We just didnt prepare for it like we should have... it just goes to show that those who think ahead get rewarded, and those who dont often end up paying for it in the end.

 

[BigJay]

For right or wrong, I based my opinion on what I believe are accurate facts from CNN:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/22/news/economy/pickens_wind/index.htm?postversion=2008072214

The nation currently relies on coal - the dirtiest of all fossil fuels - for 50% of its electricity production. Natural gas makes up about 21%, and nuclear comprises about 20%. Hydro and oil contribute a bit each as well, while traditional renewables - wind, solar, biomass and geothermal - ring in at only 3%, combined, according to EIA.

I think 3% is pretty rare.

But using more renewables is certainly worth looking into. EIA estimates that by 2015, wind energy will cost 7 cents a kilowatt hour to produce, just a half cent more than coal or natural gas.

It's estimated that in 2015 that wind will be just half a cent more expensive than natural gas. That's still more expensive, meaning that it's not cheaper. I can't refute the anecdote about your lucky friend who made a good investment, but this is where the chips are for everyone else.

We'll see how renewables work out, but I don't think we'll be able to replace 20% of our power infrastructure out that quickly. There's just so much that we can replace or build, and the cost is going to be astronomical. Third off we really can't afford the government to come in and fix this. Between the military, social security, national debt service payments, and medicare budgets, our country is broke.

 

[hahnmeister]

Germany has been able to do it... their energy policy called for a 20% adoption of solar and wind in 20 years, and they stand to beat it by 10% at their current pace. The same sort of deal could be made here. The 'system' goes like this: They pay 2x as much for electric as normal (about $.25/kwh if translated into $US, similar to CA actually), yet for every kwh added back to the system through solar or wind, or whatever, the owner gets back 2x that (about $.50/kwh). The system pays for itself without any real government upkeep/control (they just struck the deal with the companies), and it has caused a boom in the solar and wind industry there. They are now easily the world leaders in PV cell technology. Banks cant refuse business loans to those who want to get a loan for say, $1million in solar arrays because the return is promised by the policy. As there is demand for R&D in that field now too, the efficiency of those systems goes up, as well as production, making them cheaper and cheaper. Early PV/solar cells were only 5-7% efficient, now they are more than double that, and they are working on ways to make them even more... by harvesting not only red light (current solar cells only harvest red light), but blue and green as well. If they can get efficiencies up to say, 50% even, you really could power your car with a solar cell on its roof (provided you have the sun exposure). Even wind technology gets cheaper in that regard. Its really up to consumer demand in the end, and if anything, in the past, the US government, automakers, and oil companies have been pushing us into using more oil, and to depend on them more and more. Considering the fed gets more money per gallon than the oil company due to taxes... where do you think there interests have always been? If you are so against the 'manipulation' that environmentalists would have done to our market to foster in 'green technologies', then what about the past 50+ years of the government undermining every alternative we once had and pushing us into using gas?

 

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995275#post12995275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
It's popped up with a couple of posters in some of the different threads on the topic. I'd go digging for the quotes for you, but quite frankly I don't have the time to that and keep up with other things

No need to go digging. I was arguing your insinuation that it was happening in this thread.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995275#post12995275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Not bad, we've actually come to an agreement on one point

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Please stop trying to discredit my reputation as a denier :lol:
I don't even know if "it's" happening and if it is...is it really such a bad thing?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995275#post12995275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
As for Manhattan or LI being underwater first...

Are we still on your 20 year time table.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995275#post12995275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Ahh, yes, the same free market that had GE dumping tons of PCB's into the Hudson river. Enough so that there are still high levels of PCB's in Striped Bass and even Oceanic fish like Swordfish. Not to mention high levels of mecury in our oceans fish from pollution of industry. Those pollutants aren't there because it was the smart thing to dump them in the water, but because it was the cheap thing for the bottom line. That's the free market for you BTW I don't have much more faith in the Gov't either.

Just when you started to sound reasonable.
Who was to blame for toxic dumping? An economic system or the company that broke the law? Our free market didn't demand GE do that.
This is like blaming a bad childhood for committing murder.
So...our free market is evil, the government can't be trusted.
Who do you see fixing this phantom problem?

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13000566#post13000566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
So...our free market is evil, the government can't be trusted.
Who do you see fixing this phantom problem?

Lawsuits. Giant, crazy, you break it you buy it, billion dollar lawsuits. Seriously.

 

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995190#post12995190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Huh? Sometimes I wonder if you actually read what I've said.

Unfortunately, yes...I waste entirely too much time reading your self righteous bloviating.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12995190#post12995190 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
How appropriate would it be to have someone come into science classrooms and debate whether Earth or the sun is the center of the solar system?

Why would it be inappropriate?
Does it offend you when the uneducated proletariat, the teeming masses, sully's the good name of science?
I would normally ask a person like you "Just who the he11 do you think you are" but statements like this:
"There's a time and place for everything. The scientific literature is the place for scientific debate, not the town auditorium" make it clear that you are just another pompous SOB.
I bet you love to catch a reflection of yourself in shop windows as you walk down the street huh?

 

[billsreef]

virginiadiver69,

I'm speaking as a moderator here, not as part of the debate. That last post of yours crosses the line into personal attacks. Got to keep those out of it if this thread is to remain open or for me to keep the banstick in it's closet. I'd much rather have a good debate

 

[Kannin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12999066#post12999066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister


A 'gas guzzler' tax, or a usage tax on your power bill? Dont you pay more tax (the percentage of the gas you buy) in a free-market anyways? Power bill regulation like that is something that the power company decides on, not the government. If everyone in your area had a reef tank, the power grid would have to be updated...

You seem like an intelligent individual... so I was shocked when you made these statements. A gas guzzler tax which is already imposed at the time of purchase on high performance sports cars such as Ferarris and other cars that do not attempt to meet cafe standards... is much different than local, state and federal gas taxes assessed at the pump. If we give the 537 lawyers that run this country enough rope... they will undoubtedly start to impose other such taxes in the name of AGW on those of us that they feel, use too much.

If you think that the government cannot or does not tax us on our utility bills... look at your cell phone monthly statement. They can and do!

We have already said... "What's it hurt to give in a little?" and it is not a stretch for them to start assessing penalties for over usage. They have already outlawed incadescent light bulbs. All we are left with is light bulbs that have mercury in them. Have you seen the hazmat requirements for cleaning up a broken one. Who's to say they won't outlaw barbequeing or limit the amount of beef we can use. They have already taken our tax dollars and created a false market for corn so large... that it is creating a shortage in other crops and price increases on almost every food we buy.

 

[billsreef]

Back to the debate

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13000566#post13000566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Just when you started to sound reasonable.
Who was to blame for toxic dumping? An economic system or the company that broke the law? Our free market didn't demand GE do that.
This is like blaming a bad childhood for committing murder.
So...our free market is evil, the government can't be trusted.
Who do you see fixing this phantom problem?

The free market typically causes a company to do what it thinks is best for it's bottom line. No more, no less. Not entirely unreasonable, but it does have it's drawbacks. In the case of GE dumping PCB's, it was the cost effective thing for them to do as a company looking out for it's bottom line in a free market. No one made them do it, it was just the cheapest way out which was best for their bottom line. Now several decades later we are still paying the price of that pollution in our waters