Another Vinegar question, please advice I have searched:)

[Paalk]

Hi good people of RC, I usually don't post anything here because I usually find all the info I need by searching, and because English is not my native tongue so I stay away from posting in fear of beeing misunderstood hehe I have done a lot of research on the vinegar dosing topic the last few weeks without beeing satisfied with the answers it has provided. Here in Norway biopellets is more common hence nobody can give me the answers I need in regards to this. I hope you guys can give me a quick answer if you think I am on the right track as I get pretty confused with all the different "truths" out on the different forums on the internet.

My system is a 1000l Deltec Classic tank with a 250l sump. Total water volume is about 1200l as of now. I have a 325l tank under my sump too, this tank I want to use as a refugium gravity filled from the sump with a return pump pushing the water back to the sump and from there to the DT.

The tank is heavy stocked with fish because I wanted a FOWLR when I started it in March this year. Now I have changed my mind and started to add corals.

My parameters is as follows:

KH 9.52
CA 406
MG 1600
Salinity 1.025
NO3 50ppm
Phosphate 0.10
PH 8.2-8.3
Temp 26 C

I want to reduce nitrates and phosphate hence vinegar dosing. I have bought a dosing pump and a container for the vinegar and even programmed the pump to start of with 40ml of 7% white vinegar(7% is what we get here in Norway) and spread it over 24 cycles during a 24 hour period. I just want to know if I am on the right track here before I push the button

What do you think?

If it is relevant I have the following filtration and equipment running in the aquarium.

Deltec Eco Cooler
Deltec FR 509 with Rowaphos
Deltec Kalkwasser Stirrer connected to my Tunze ATO
Avast Marine MutinyII ozone reactor with 2 Sander 50mg ozon generators
Deltec FR 509 with Carbon at the ozon reactor output effluent
Aqua Medic Nitrate filter with an IKS redox controller to automate the pump output every time the water inside the filter drops under -250mv.
2 x De Bary UV filters each 25w
1 x Aqua Medic sandfilter is also residing in the sump.
Pumps are 2 x Vortech MP40's and a 30000l adjustable Tunze pump in the display.
Returns are one NewJet 6500 and NewJet 8000(I use two smaller pumps for redundancy instead of 1 powerful pump)
And last but not least I run a Deltec SC 2560 skimmer.
I also have a Deltec calcium reactor with PH controller from Milwaukee I will put online during this week because my CA is a little in the low side, just waiting for my peristaltic pump.

I am hoping to get rid of the nitrate filter as a consequense of the vinegar dosing so please feel free to comment on that. Also if you have any comments regarding my other filtration equipment please feel free to tell me your opinion if you think I have to much or too little of anything. If possible in my world less is more so if you think that any of my equipment is to much when starting vinegar please let me know.
One last thing all Deltec tanks have different kind of sponges in the overflow as a pre-filter they are cleaned about every 14 days.

All comments are very much appreciated.

 

[downbeach]

That sounds about right to me.
This might be a little "back door" thinking but this might achieve both your goals:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp

 

[Paalk]

Thanks downbeach, I have thought about spiking my lime water but I don't know if that's a route I want to go. I have read that Guru Randy Farley Holmes did that before and have stopped doing it, so I wonder why that is.

If I were to go that route I have a hard time figuring out how much vinegar to add. And can you dose the vinegar directly from a dosing pump and into the Kalkwasser stirrer?

So many questions hehe

 

[reefgeezer]

I agree there are many "truths" surrounding carbon dosing. I use vinegar as part of my nutrient control and really like the simplicity of the process once it's dialed in. Here's a few things that you might consider.

Carbon dosing with an alkalinity of 10 dKh can be an issue to some corals. You could lower the alkalinity to 7 to 8 before starting your calcium reactor. That way you won't have to mess with the alkalinity when you wish to add corals.

You could set the dosing pump to administer the vinegar in a few "doses" during time when the lights are on. This assures that the bacterial bloom(s) occur when the O2 level in the tank is highest.

Nitrate/phosphate ratio might be an issue. I am not a chemist, so I'm only guessing but... the process could stall before your nitrates get where you want them due to phosphate limitation. Maybe someone who better understands the process will chime in on this issue.

I'm not familiar with Deltec tanks so I don't know how much trouble this is but... The pre-filter sponges may be a substantial source of nitrate. If you could clean them every couple of days less nitrates would enter the system.

I'm not familiar with your nitrate filter either. Does it use the ozone or does your ozone system use a different ORP controller? Either way, I'd keep an eye on the controller(s) after the vinegar is dosed to see what happens to the redox potential.

 

[dartier]

Your plan looks reasonable to me. The amount of vinegar you are planning to start with also looks good for a 1000L tank.

The items that I consider important are:

1. Have a capable skimmer (yours looks great).
2. Automate the carbon addition with a dosing pump (it can be done manually, but slow additions over 24H work better).
3. Skim wet. Having your skimmer, skimming too dry, hampers the effectiveness.
4. Keep your skimmer clean. It is where the magic happens.

Most the points on my list, I learned the hard way. Well except for the automating the dosing, I already knew I was far less reliable than a dosing pump

Dennis

 

[Reef Frog]

Most posts on US based forums are referring to 3% vinegar which is the most common way it's sold here. So you may want to adjust amounts when using the 7% product you have in Norway.

 

[dartier]

Nitrate/phosphate ratio might be an issue. I am not a chemist, so I'm only guessing but... the process could stall before your nitrates get where you want them due to phosphate limitation. Maybe someone who better understands the process will chime in on this issue.

The pattern that I have observed in my tank, and others have also witnessed, is that Nitrate reduction is seen first, followed by phosphate reduction at a later point. The reasoining being that a population of phosphate accumulating bacteria take longer to develop, but they usually eventually develop. Most people have tanks skewed more towards phosphates than nitrates, since water changes can control nitrates, unlike phosphates, but YMMV.

Another possibility is that bacteria populations that are more effective at either nitrate or phosphate reduction may favour different carbon sources. For instance NO3PO4-X uses a mixture of Ethanol and Acetic Acid with a trace of Methanol and Isopropanol (as discussed in this thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985 )

Dennis

 

[rwb500]

Most posts on US based forums are referring to 3% vinegar which is the most common way it's sold here.

no, it's 5% in the US.

 

[Paalk]

Thanks for all the answers guys,
Dartier my skimmer is pulling gunk like mad even before I have started dosing vinegar so I suppose it will be ok. I probably have to buy the Deltec automatic cleaning head for it to keep it clean though hehe I'm not as reliable as an automatic cleaner. I have allready plugged in a dosing pump. Just wanted to make sure that 40mls was ok before I start. Do you think 40mls is ok even though it is 7% over here?

Reefgeezer my dosing pump doesn't allow me to set dosing at a specific time, only from 1 through 24 cycles during 24 hours. Wouldn't it work ok if I just administer the vinegar in fex. 24 cycles? That shouldn't affect PH or Oxygen levels at the small amounts of vinegar we are talking about here should it? How would you lower the KH? Regarding the overflow sponges I doubt that is a nitrate factory, when I wash it every 14 days there isn't a lot of detritus or dirt in the sponges so I guess it's not enough time for bacteria to settle there but I don't know for sure. Regarding the redox controller is used by the nitrate filter only. I have a Hanna ORP meter to monitor the water in regards to the ozon use.

Any of you guys ever heard of somebody who have tried to dose the vinegar directly into the kalkwasser stirrer?
Would our 7% vinegar be an issue? Should I cut down a little on the daily dose?

 

[bertoni]

Dosing the vinegar in 24 cycles will spread the dose more than enough. I suspect 6 cycles or even one would be okay.

The safest way to lower the dKH in a running tank is to stop dosing, and let it drop on its own. You can dose mineral acid (like muriatic acid) into <b>water for changes</b> and do some water changes with it if need be, but mineral acids require careful handling, and I wouldn't bother. In theory, you can dose acid directly into a running tank, but I wouldn't take the risk.

7% vinegar is close enough to the standard 5% in the US that I wouldn't worry much. Cutting back 30% on the dosing schedule would match it with the various tables in articles, but I think watching the tank is more critical than the exact dose. Signs of a bacterial bloom, like cloudy water or slimy patch, indicate that the vinegar dose should be reduced.

 

[dartier]

Any of you guys ever heard of somebody who have tried to dose the vinegar directly into the kalkwasser stirrer?

I don't think this will accomplish your objective, at least not as far as allowing for a higher strength of Kalk solution. This is normally only suggestd for the mix once, still resevoir type of Kalk delivery system.

On the carbon dosing side, it may still work, however you will lose some predictability as the carbon dose is not going directly into the water column, and may accumulate in the Kalk stirrer, depending on your Kalk dosage (timed or based on evaporation).

Personally I would just dose the vinegar separate from the Kalk.

Dennis

 

[reefgeezer]

Dosing the vinegar in 24 cycles will spread the dose more than enough. I suspect 6 cycles or even one would be okay.

The safest way to lower the dKH in a running tank is to stop dosing, and let it drop on its own...

+1

I mentioned the nitratehosphate ratio because they are bound to organic compounds encouraged by the vinegar in particular ratios. If either nitrate or phosphate are reduced to very low levels, binding of the other nutrient and its overall reduction may slow, It is something to watch.

 

[Paalk]

Again thanks a million for your replies. So if I understand this correctly I can just push the on button on the dosing pump according to the facts in my first post.

Bertoni in regards to the KH question what did you mean by stop dosing? Stop dosing what?

 

[reefgeezer]

Again thanks a million for your replies. So if I understand this correctly I can just push the on button on the dosing pump according to the facts in my first post.

Yes. There is a schedule in one of Randy's articles you can roughly follow. I'm old though so I haven't learned how to link to things. Can someone help me out?

 

[dartier]

Yes. There is a schedule in one of Randy's articles you can roughly follow. I'm old though so I haven't learned how to link to things. Can someone help me out?

I believe you mean this article.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

With this chart.

Dennis

 

[bertoni]

I'd stop dosing any pH buffer or alkalinity supplement, and stop any Kalk going to the system. What is being added to the system, if anything?

 

[Paalk]

Bertoni, I dose amino acids and trace elements. Will start the vinegar today with 40mls the first week. I also run ATO through a kalkwasser, maybe 30% kalkwasser and 70% ro di water. Should I stop that for a while?

 

[Paalk]

Forgot a couple of zeovit products like sponge power, coral vitalizer etc

 

[reefgeezer]

I believe you mean this article... With this chart.

Dennis

Thanks Dennis.

 

[bertoni]

Yes, I'd stop the Kalk for a bit if I wanted to get the dKH down. That might take only a day or two, or longer, so it'd be worth checking every 24 hours for a bit.