Any serious SPS collectors use LED?

[150778]

I am also going back to T5's by tomorrow this time my Tek light 8 bulb will be back over 150 display.
Just finish retro fit some moonlight led on it
My photon 48 will be going over my Lps/softies tank.I gave led a year and still not happy with my sps.
I think it will do better over the other tank

 

[MisterP]

If you really look at a tank with LED will see shadowing. You think it's not there but if you look at the sides of the SPS in the branches there is shading. The optics on LEDs are not even in the same universe as the reflective light output from MH or T5.
I would bet 95% of the top notch tanks only run MH or T5 and maybe an LED supplement, like actinic strip or something.

Take a look at these threads and find the common theme!
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2277755
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2449072
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388459
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1910505
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2342739
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2308288
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2339384
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216333
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2450832
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1755962
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2461243
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1909479
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2357196

This is not meant to be a complete representation of T5/MH tanks.

It is also not meant to disregard those who have nice tanks with LED.


However from what I have noticed the vast majority of very nice tanks run T5 and/or MH with LED only as supplemental.

LED IMO and to some degree my experience is that very nice tanks and LED lighting are very few and far between. The color saturation is just not there for me.

 

[VegasMike]

First, my experience.

Had a 450 gallon tank previously with 400 watt MH. It came to a point i was not very happy with it, so I supplemented with T5. Still never had the colors I wanted. Then, I moved from LV to Charlotte.

I currently have a pair of 220 gallon tanks, one on either side of my fireplace. They are set up exactly the same. I started with 5 AI Sol Blu units on each tank and got great color initially. I then told myself that something was not right and got rid of two of the units on each tank and replaced them with 250 watt MH. They were set up as AI/MH/AI/MH/AI. I never got above 55% on the AI units and that may have been an issue.

I recently restarted the tanks, getting rid of the MH and converted 3 of the AI units on each tank to Hydra 52's. I now have the following configuration Hydra/SOL/Hydra/SOL/Hydra. I am getting great color out of everything so far, but it is far too soon to really judge anything. One tank is LPS and Softies and a couple clams. That tank is doing great. The other tank is SPS only. There are four wild pieces and about 30 frags. The wild pieces are undergoing what I would call a color shift, going from a little darker, to lighter and now back to coloring up. One piece has developed some nice sky blue tips. The Echinata has turned much bluer. The blue color has not shifted, but it has more of the blue coloring deeper into the branches. The frags have really done nothing but get better colors. I am only at 40% or so on the Hydras, but intend to ramp that up until I am happy.

It's still too early for me to tell, but I can also say that my switching back to MH did not make me any happier. That being said, the MH are in the garage in case I get fickle once again.

What I truly think the problem is with LED's is that there are too many individual settings to play with and that there is not one combination that is known to work. Changes to lighting tend to take time to evaluate and LED's do not lend themselves to the patient user since it is too easy to make changes if one thinks they are needed, whether they are or are not.

As for coverage and shading, I think more units will always be better. Five over a 6'x2' tank footprint works great for me. I like the lack of heat, less evap and lower electricity consumption. I have never been able to keep a tank 75-77 degrees without a chiller and now I can.

 

[MisterP]

lower electricity consumption.

I use a Hydra52 myself. I don't buy the electricity savings due to coverage and number of units required, my point, at ~135 W each unit at full intensity multiplied by 5 is 675 W.

Similar lighting on your tank would be
2*250W MH +4*80W T5 =820W+250W chiller=1070W
2*400W MH= 800W+250W chiller= 1050W
3*250W MH =750W+250W chiller= 1000W
5 High end LEDs( Radion, Hydra, etc.)=675-800W...Radions use more power
8*80W T5's= 640W....T5s should not require chiller


So now call it a max 300 W savings.

300W*(8hrs (per day lighting + chiller usage)*365 days annually) =876,000 Whrs annually or 876kWh annually

Most people pay $0.10-$0.20 per kWh http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

So in Texas as your example you pay $0.12/kilowatt hour*876kWh=$105.12 annual cost difference for MH plus a chiller....very extreme case with roughly $100 saved annually. Figure in a few bulb replacements and you've spent $300 more that year to operate your lighting.

Now, lets talk about cost of startup. 5 Radions for example set you back $3500. 5 Hydra 52s set you back about $3000. A similar T5 unit as far as coverage is ~$700. Total savings $2300-2800.

What was our energy savings again....$105.12 annually with $2300-2800 MORE in startup cost takes 22-25 years for that $105.12 annual energy savings to payback our startup cost. Figure in annual bulb changes and you've knocked the payback down to 5-8 years. Still not a huge difference.


This is why I don't buy the energy savings argument of LED. I use LED so I am not biased.

I think for me I would only use them on VERY small tanks where you can get by with one unit and where T5/MH is impractical.

 

[billdogg]

My DT is a SPS dominated 120g w/standard 4x2x2 dimensions. I run 2 AI Sol blues at 45w/65b/65rb 12hours on 12 off with the fixtures 12" above the water. Granted it's only been going since August 2013 with the majority of coral's added as frags that September, but I feel that both growth and color is very good.


As a previous poster noted, I think the biggest issue people have with LED lighting is the adjustability. Acclimate your tank to the new lighting, then LEAVE IT ALONE long enough to actually see some results!

JM .02

 

[VegasMike]

I did not make my decision based on lower energy consumption. It is merely an added benefit.

 

[MisterP]

I did not make my decision based on lower energy consumption. It is merely an added benefit.

You seem to mention it and think it is a benefit. Do the math as I have and you'll see the benefit doesn't come for many years.

 

[billdogg]

Here's a few comparison shots - on the left are from 1 year ago, on the right, almost exactly one year later.



this has been accidentally fragged several time, so actual growth is considerably more


if you look closely at the photo on the right, you can see the little bump that was the original frag

 

[ajcanale]

that's your answer.
I think for a normal 48"x24"x18" tank to get complete coverage with no shading you would need no less than 5 radions or hydra52, etc.

energy consumption argument lost all credibility here. lol :lolspin:

edit: 5 radions over a 90g.... I'm still :lmao:

 

[buy_baff]

Here's a few comparison shots - on the left are from 1 year ago, on the right, almost exactly one year later.



this has been accidentally fragged several time, so actual growth is considerably more


if you look closely at the photo on the right, you can see the little bump that was the original frag

Honestly compared to halides I would call this minamal growth for a year.

 

[MrSkumFrog]

I have Hydra LEDs. My Montis and pocillipora are alive...
Their growth is rather slow though. I'm switching over. I just purchased a MH & T5 fixture; however, it was slightly damaged from shipping.

 

[MisterP]

energy consumption argument lost all credibility here. lol :lolspin:

edit: 5 radions over a 90g.... I'm still :lmao:

The point here was coverage. LEDs don't give full coverage. Trust me I have shading in my 20 gallon. Say what you will but if I absolutely had no choice but LED I would run 5 Hydras turned on end on a 4 ft tank. In fact go search the Hydra thread and look at the tank with like 18 Hydra 52s.

All you guys want to talk about is energy efficiency but a Radion runs at 170watts do some math and see that it takes YEARS to see any payback from energy.

 

[ajcanale]

The point here was coverage. LEDs don't give full coverage. Trust me I have shading in my 20 gallon. Say what you will but if I absolutely had no choice but LED I would run 5 Hydras turned on end on a 4 ft tank. In fact go search the Hydra thread and look at the tank with like 18 Hydra 52s.

All you guys want to talk about is energy efficiency but a Radion runs at 170watts do some math and see that it takes YEARS to see any payback from energy.

Well I have no experience with Hydras, but I do know Radions very well. I'll also say that I haven't seen any AI lit SPS tanks in person that I've been to fond of, though I'm sure they exist somewhere. Radions, well.... different story.

All that aside, I find there to be an array of perks without even considering the "energy effeciency" that you keep referring to....

First and foremost, controllability. Whether it's being able to ramp power up and down over the course of the day, experimenting with a variety of color temperatures, or creating a vivid dusk/dawn phase, the controllability is undoubtedly unmatched.

Second, Aesthetics. The is highly subjective but I believe corals are best viewed from above, therefore I really don't care for hooded tanks. Of the 3 lighting standards, LED modules seem to yield the most room for top down viewing and also are the easiest to manage without the use of a canopy. Again, this is subjective...

Another major benefit is the operating temperature, the effect it has not only on the tank temperature but the ambient room temperature and humidity and the need to offset these factors.

Bulb life. From someone who has used all forms (VHO/T5/MH/LED) and currently uses T5's as well... It sure is nice not having to worry about ever changing bulbs, or having to do math on how long it's been since they've last been replaced... etc.

Lastly, here's that term..... Energy Consumption :eek2: While the monthly energy costs between MH and LED might seem mundane, I don't have to worry about constantly running my AC during the summer months to battle with the heat of MH... or even flirt with the idea of having a chiller.

If you want to boil it down to a flat line long term cost comparison in which you compare a reasonable number of fixtures, I'll agree that the difference might prove mundane. When taking into consideration all of the benefits that I find there to be... after years of use on both sides.... I'll pick my Radions every time.

Also, I have zero shading issues (that I wouldn't also have with other lighting types) with 3 Radion Pro fixtures over a 5"x2"x2" and they peak at 60% (150 * 3 * .6 = 270 watts = pretty efficient IMO)

 

[MisterP]

just trying to see how many serious SPS collectors out there are using LED's in their display tank. are you happy with your switch to LED's? Anyone go back to using hallides/T5 from LED's?
I'm using T5's right now and I've tried LED's a couple times now and have always gone back to either halide or T5 fixtures because I'm either unhappy with the puny spread of LED fixtures or color just doesn't look right to me. Some of the LED lit SPS tank that I've seen personally also just doesn't look very appealing.

This is the original question. The person didn't say anything about controllability, cloud effects, moon lighting, ramp up/down etc.

He states clearly that he wants to know if people are happy with them and also states how I feel is that the spread is not good and color of coral is just not a deep saturated color or as he says doesn't look right.

Do what makes you happy but don't play the energy efficiency card because the payback is several years away so it is of VERY little benefit until 5 years down the road.

IME LEDs do not have any where close to the spread of halide or T5. Sure you get some convenience of not changing bulbs. But what happens when a circuit board or LED cluster burns out? You can't just run to the LFS and grab a bulb. You most likely are without that portion of the light for several days. Maybe even the whole light fries something and you have to send it in for warranty. MH and T5 are simple. Bulb, ballast, wiring and reflector is all you have.

To sum this debate up for myself. I would not use LED going forward with my new build for my sps tank other than as a supplement to T5 or halide.

Coverage is poor, startup cost is crazy, energy efficiency doesn't gain me anything for several years ( do the math you will see), colors seem "not right", disco ball effect or blending is not aesthetically pleasing.

Sure you get a better sunrise/sunset simulation, less heat, sleeker fixture but that is all I see.

Honestly a good way to go is the way of the ATI LED hybrid powermodule. I think this is the future...solid T5 or MH unit with LED as supplement.

 

[VegasMike]

I think we know where you stand. I don't disagree with your assessment, but I don't totally agree either. The entire decision comes down to several factors, not all of which are completely objective, nor are the priorities placed on each a constant amongst the population.

Personally, I have quite a few AI units as well as MH units and I have gone from T5 to MH to a combination if MH/T5 to all LED to LED/MH combo and now back to all LED.

I strongly disagree with the stance that if something goes wrong with LED, it is a protracted time without. I converted my AI Sols to Hydra 52's and it is not complicated, nor are there that many parts. One of the kits had a defective board and I had it a day later, changed out 15 minutes after receipt. It really wasn't that different than having a ballast go out, which I did have happen a couple times.

My experience with colors over the past 15 years of doing this is that there are many factors. LED will work and has, but I think it is still too early to have the kind of stable, mature tanks you are try into make a comparison with.

 

[MisterP]

I think we know where you stand. I don't disagree with your assessment, but I don't totally agree either. The entire decision comes down to several factors, not all of which are completely objective, nor are the priorities placed on each a constant amongst the population.

Personally, I have quite a few AI units as well as MH units and I have gone from T5 to MH to a combination if MH/T5 to all LED to LED/MH combo and now back to all LED.

I strongly disagree with the stance that if something goes wrong with LED, it is a protracted time without. I converted my AI Sols to Hydra 52's and it is not complicated, nor are there that many parts. One of the kits had a defective board and I had it a day later, changed out 15 minutes after receipt. It really wasn't that different than having a ballast go out, which I did have happen a couple times.

My experience with colors over the past 15 years of doing this is that there are many factors. LED will work and has, but I think it is still too early to have the kind of stable, mature tanks you are try into make a comparison with.

Good for you Mike.

 

[Reeftub]

I ran 2 sol blue on my 65g 12" off the water line and at 100% all colors and grew my tank out in 2 years from frags . Lights were set up ( - -) on the tank and had no problems growing with shadowing.

I don't have in my phone the latest pic but this is when it was getting close to the 2 yr mark.

 

[Reeftub]

Also sorry for the bad pic it was a iPhone 3 at this time

 

[lonzoencho]

I notice no mention of the Kessil 350/360 here. To be honest having worked with MH, T5, and Various LED (Radion, AI Hydra/Vega Color, Reef breeders, and Kessil) the wide angle version is the closest thing to MH w/good reflector I've seen. Even with shadowing at the price point of $299/$399 a pop it is more reasonable than others (AI/Radion) to have 3-4 on tank. These really do cover about a 2' cube for full sps growth. They're full spectrum, controllable and the optics built in are great. I look forward to the new AP700 (basically 2 Kessil 360's one panel) for adequate coverage. More than a few examples out there of extraordinary growth and color. I know this won't persuade diehards or "non-biased" people like MisterP but it's just my experiences.

 

[lonzoencho]

Oops I saw the #4 post mention them but not otherwise.