any tips for alk/ca?

[jacksonpt]

Any of you veterans have any tips for how to keep alk/ca levels correct? For as important as they are, I wish there was an easier way deal with them than test every couple of days, then guesstimate a dosage based on those tests.

This is the one thing I've always struggled with... and while my levels have never been so bad that my tanks end up unhealthy, I've never had consistent growth and color in my SPS (which is a large reason why I've been primarily an LPS guy).

I'm very good with routine... but I've never been able to nail down dosing for alk/ca. I've done it by hand (testing 2x week and guesstimating a dose based on those tests), I've topped off with Kalk water, I've used dosing pumps on timers... none have played out as good long term solutions. On principle I hate estimating doses... if I could test water and know exactly how much to dose based on the test readings, I'd be ok with that. Kalk ends up leaving a buildup on the glass (presumably because the alk/ca balance gets way out of wack... haven't done this in a long time)... dosing pumps work in the short term, but invariably a timer doesn't shut off and a whole jug of ca additive ends up in the tank.

What have you all found to work best? A ca reactor is out of the question due to equipment/space needs. I'm thinking about a basic controller (maybe used) to control lights and dosing pumps.

Any other tips? This is one of those things that seems like it should be easier than it is.

TIA

 

[Flanders]

I've always just dripped kalk topoff water daily with weekly testing and fine-tuning. Daily two-part on top of that as needed, dosed manually. No pumps. I was never able to get any stability to grow sps until I started dosing kalk.

 

[pascal32]

What are you using for a timer that gets stuck open?

 

[jacksonpt]

What are you using for a timer that gets stuck open?

just basic digital timers from Target.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I use one of those el cheapo timers from Home Depot to control my Christmas lights, my Halloween display and my BRS dosing pump for kalk and not one has ever failed me.

If I tested Ca & alk twice a week I would have quit doing this 15 years ago.

Get a routine going so you stay in the ballpark and test once monthly IMO.

I doubt ANYONE'S reef aquarium here depletes calcium alkalinity and Mg as fast as mine does. There's no way it's ever going to be "stable" if corals are growing. It's a constant struggle to maintain these 3... especially alkalinity.
Luckily, Arm & Hammer baking soda is DIRT CHEAP.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I like kalk simply because it adds the calcium and alkalinity in the correct ratio, so you can get by with half the problem solving.

I dose a set amount daily, spread over 4 or 5 15-minute periods, through a 50ml dosing pump. This is a slow enough rate for my tank that I get no spikes or unusual precipitate. I determine the amount to dose based on demand, based on testing. Once I have a tank "stable" with no large additions or subtractions of corals, I find I can get by with once a month testing or even less.

FWIW I topoff via ATO totally separately from the kalk dose. I know a lot of people just top off with kalk, but for my environment, that leaves too much room for fluctuations if the amount of evaporation varies from day to day.

I do own two part supplies, and I use them occasionally (usually to adjust the parameters of the tank or new saltwater during water changes). Otherwise, this is pretty much how I've done most of my reef tanks for most of my time in this hobby, and it's only really "failed" me once (recently, unfortunately) in a way that was complete user error, i.e. it wasn't the method's fault.

No matter what method you use there is going to be some sort of iterative refinement process to tune the method initially, and then some (hopefully smaller) iterative process to re-tune it any time there is a change in your demand. Again, I like kalk mostly because it is fairly simple.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

limewater should NOT be leaving any buildup on glass if dosed properly....

now this is just my opinion...

but I don't see any reason topoff shouldn't be kalkwasser. Topping off with RO is probably more detrimental to most reef aquariums than topping off with limewater (when done properly).

 

[tmz]

Lime water(kalk) from a still reservoir and a peristaltic pump timed to distribute a preset amount for top off in equal increments over a 24 hour period works very well with little maintenance. A lidded bucket or garbage can filled with settled and still lime water can last weeks or months without lime water loosing strength.
I use a Spectra pure liter meter 3 for the pump; it will distribute a preset amount of clear limewater over 24 hours in 150 equal increments spaced about 10 minutes apart. Others use brs dosers and timers or the bubble magnus or the reef filler diaphram pump,etc. , or a gravity drip application.

Far down the road, you may need more than fully saturated limewater top off ( two tsps per gallon) to meet all your needs. Then you can consider adding a balanced doses of baked baking soda and calicum chloride to make up any shortfall.

Some prefer a calcium reactor to supplement limewater when needed. I've done that but prefer minimal two part dosing( baking soa and calcium chloride ).

Magnesium is important too butdepletes slowly and keeping it over 1300 ppm is realtively easy with monthly testing and water changes. Supplementing mag chloride and mag sulfate should be a once every few months chore if that.

 

[cardiffgiant]

limewater should NOT be leaving any buildup on glass if dosed properly....

now this is just my opinion...

but I don't see any reason topoff shouldn't be kalkwasser. Topping off with RO is probably more detrimental to most reef aquariums than topping off with limewater (when done properly).

This is what I was thinking.

I used to get lots of kalk cloud (and the negative effects of it) when I topped off from kalkwasser that was mixed in 5 gallon buckets. Ever since I started using the larger vessel for kalk (and started keeping the top off tube well out of the slurry at the bottom of the vessel) I had a more stable experience.

I've had good luck using:
-ATO- a spectrapure ATO, BRS 50ml/minute top off pump, 30 gallons RO, 4 cups kalk, 1100ml vinegar (which I gradually built up to, 100ml per batch).
-2 Part- digital timers and BRS 1ml/minute dosing pumps.

I generally measure 2-3 times a month and adjust timers by 1-2 minutes here and there. When I was dialing in my 2 part I found the calculators at BRS to be very helpful.

 

[tmz]

keeping the top off tube well out of the slurry at the bottom of the vessel) I had a more stable experience.

I agree. Dosing clear limewater is impor tant .The slurry holds undissolved calcium hydroxide and impruites. It's also important to spread the dose as much as pactical. No more than 1/4 tsp per 50 gallons of water volume in any given hour. That would be abut 1/8 of a gallon of limewater mixed at 2 tsps per gallon per gallon of water volume as a max dose in an hour. Dosing to a high flow area with teh dosing end of the tube a few inches out of the water is also helpful.

As for testing and adjustments. I'd start with 1 tsp per gallon. Test alk daily for a week or two and see if an adjustment is needed. Once a level is established alk testing once every few days should be fine. Keeping alk constant is important,ime.

Calcium depletes slowly and as long as it's kept over 350 it's fine. I like to run it higher around 470ppm for a margin.Weekly testing is more than adeqaute.

Magnesium should be kept over 1300ppm. I run it over 1400ppm with testing every month or two. It helps prevent a biotic precipitation and is used in a variety of warys by the life in our tank.

 

[pascal32]

Consider investing in a controller to manage the pump. Reliable timers are key to managing the kh and ca of the tank if you do not want to do it by hand everyday.

These days I'm leaning towards apex over DA

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

limewater should NOT be leaving any buildup on glass if dosed properly....

now this is just my opinion...

but I don't see any reason topoff shouldn't be kalkwasser. Topping off with RO is probably more detrimental to most reef aquariums than topping off with limewater (when done properly).

When your tank evaporates a gallon and a half on a cool humid rainy day, but three plus gallons when the A/C is dropping humidity on a hot day or the dry central air is on, that's plenty of reason for me. I don't want 100% fluctuations in the amount on kalk dosed from day to day. Even if it works out on average, that can certainly lead to instability in pH that I wouldn't want.

In a more stable environment where Ca and alk demand were at or above what you could dose via topoff with kalk, I would definitely agree with you.

 

[jacksonpt]

Good info everyone, thanks.

This is what I'm taking away from this thread so far... The cliff notes if you will...

Options:
1) dose by hand - assuming you're paying at least a little attention to what you're doing, thus is probably the most fool proof against "over dosing", but easiest to forget about and thus end up under dosing.

2) drip 2-part controlled by timers/controller - assuming reliable timers, good way to keep tank "in range" once a dosing schedule/amount is established, then will require small dosing by hand to fine tune parameters.

3) top off with Kalk - similar to #2

Is that pretty accurate?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I don't want 100% fluctuations in the amount on kalk dosed from day to day.

that's why a timer should be used to control the BRS doser

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Yeah, but to keep my sump level consistent I can't absorb that much swing between what I add and what I evaporate from day to day - one of the disadvantages of a herbie drain is that sump level variations can throw off the tuning. At any rate I think you and I are proposing similar approaches. I dose a set amount per day, based on call and alk demand, which is basically what you do. But then I have a traditional float switch controlled ATO to make up for differences between that and what I evaporate any given day.

Jackson, I think your conclusions are broadly correct.

 

[jacksonpt]

Jackson, I think your conclusions are broadly correct.

ok good, thanks.

So I guess the next question is about determining need/usage. Is it sufficient to test Monday then test again Friday, figure out the change, divide by 5 for daily need, then setup a dosing schedule based on that daily need?

Obviously frequent testing would be needed the first couple of weeks or month to ensure dosing schedule was correct, but as far as establishing a starting point, is the above correct?