Any Updates: Lanthanum chloride for PO4 removal

[HighlandReefer]

Aquality Symposium
1st International Symposium of Water Quality & Treatment in Zoos & Aquaria

Lanthanum chloride for PO4 removal: http://aqualitysymposium.org/phpBB2...start=15&sid=a019c001bd90de0880f5a5f9f99e4994

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What's the purpose of that link? Just background?

Lanthanum may be OK in some circumstances, but it has potential disadvantages that make me prefer GFO. For one, unless you somehow filter off the lanthanum carbonate that forms, the solids will just settle out somewhere in the system. It will also deplete alkalinity if you dose lanthanum chloride and precipitate lanthanum carbonate.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I ran across the link while searching the web. I do not know anything about it & so was interested. I read that it was being used by some major aqauriums to control PO4, so I thought there might be something to it. There are some posts currently on RC now about its use, from the reerers that live in NY.

I just raised my alkalinity to see if that benefits coral growth, so I do not want any negative effects on alk.
Thanks for the reply Randy.

 

[moonyguy]

I used it and like Randy said you need to have a way to remove it from your water....It worked for me...killed all the Xenia too. My fish seem to be okay...but no way of telling the long term effects. If you want a quick way to reduce your phosphates then its one way of doing it ...but you have to know the pros and cons before you try.

 

[HighlandReefer]

How did you remove the precipitate from the water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One large aquarium user doses it just before a sand filter where the solids will collect, but few hobbyists use sand filters.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I have a Hayward swimming pool filter plumbed in my system so that it can be bypassed. It uses the cartridge elements, which removes particles down to 10 to 15 microns. Will this filter work? They state sand filters down to about 20 microns.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That seems like it might work fine, yes.

 

[HighlandReefer]

There seem to be several manufactures that use Lanthanum chloride in their phosphate removing product, ie. PhosLock.

Are there pros & cons to using these different products?

How much would I expect my alkalinity to drop using Lanthanum chloride?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know how much is in these various products, nor do I know of any differences.

1 gram of anhydrous lanthanum chloride, LaCl3, has 4 milliequivalents of lanthanum and would take out 4 x 3 = 12 milliequivalents of alkalinity to form lanthanum carbonate, La2(CO3)3.

So adding 1 gram into 100 gallons of water volume will deplete alkalinity by 12 meq/100 gallons = 0.03 meq/L, or 0.1 dKH.

 

[HighlandReefer]

After doing some searching, it seems that the use of Lanthanum Chloride comes down to this statement by Randy:

"They also presumably claim that any precipitated lanthanum phosphate and lanthanum carbonate is harmless. It may be, but I prefer the phosphate gone. IMO, the unbound lanthanum that is dissolved is potentially more of a concern, and never once have I seen anyone show how high it gets with dosing lanthanum additives."

I assume that the unbound lanthanum will pass through a sand filter or cartridge filter like I have?

I also assume that the unbound lanthanum interferes with calcium absorption taking place in the ECF?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Dissolved lanthanum will pass through any filter. Whether the precipitated lanthanum carbonate will be caught will depend on the filter pore size and the particle sized formed, which I do not know what to expect.

I do not know what effects soluble lanthanum may have if it gets elevated, nor how high it can actually get.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Alright, heres my update or conclusion for lanthanum chloride.

In two words, dose slowly. As a sentence, it can kill invertebrates and fish, reduce your alkalinity along with phosphate, but does a killer job at removing phosphate in the super high range(3ppm). Would I use it again? No way. It stunned the crap out of my blue linkia starfish and my long spined urchin(diadema). I would stick to gfo instead. Or vodka(what i use now). Gfo can be bought as cheap as lanthanum, well comparable anyway. You can buy it in bulk from twopartsolution.com.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How much did you see alkalinity decline, and do you think the problems were due to that, or to the lanthanum itself?

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Hey Randy, I saw the alkalinity decline rapidly when and only when the phosphate was depleted to ultra low levels. So I think it has a much high affinity(liking or grabbing) for phosphate rather than alkalinity.

I am almost certain that the invertabrates were disturbed by the lanthanum cloud rather than the alkalinity decline. But I cant say for certain. Its possible that it was both as a combined effect. Because some people do use it succefully as a slow drip. however I am a sloppy reefer and just dumped in a capful without regard to animals. But thats changed now I know better....

I hope that gives you an inkling, let me know otherwise.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I found this thread by Charles Matthews: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1357466

Charles stated in this thread after dosing Lanthanum: "I have had some negative reactions in the Dendros but not so much the Scleros as the phosphate level came down from 3PPM to undetectable over about ten days."

Charles went back to using GFO.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Another product I found while searching the above subject: US Patent 6524487 - Methods and compositions using lanthanum for removing phosphate from water: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6524487/description.html

It seems that they are addressing some of Randy's concerns about free lanthanum in the water column. How it would work in a reef aquarium, I have no idea.