Anybody ever quit zeo?

[jkopp36]

I've given it a good, hard run since starting my tank last May. I continue to kill SPS. I've done everything suggested on the zeo forum and nothing has helped. Even the experts there seem stumped. My other non-Zeo tank thrives - even the few SPS pieces that are in it. I am just curious what luck anybody who has had a similar experience and has transitioned off of zeo has had. We can get into the specifics of my trials and errors if we want. I have tons of data and info. Believe me, I have a lot of $$$ invested and would love to turn things around but I give up at this point. I would really like to have a successful SPS tank.

Thanks for any and all thoughts and/or input!

 

[TheMikey]

Maybe post a little more information about your system. Size, lighting, filtration, flow, etc.

 

[jkopp36]

Can do:

DT - 225g (72"L x 30"W x 24"H)
Net system vol - 300g
Bare bottom (covered with starboard)
200lbs LR in DT (pegged and sitting about 1" off bottom)
50lbs LR in sump
Reeflo Dart return on dual 1" Seaswirls
Reeflo Hammerhead CL with OM4 - 4 split outlets at tank corners with OM4 sending flow out two outlets at a time - left to right in DT
1 - MP40W and 1 - Koralia 4 for extra flow (one of the things mentioned to me that might help)
Hurricone Cat2 internal skimmer (seems to do a very good job)
Vortex 3L Zeolite reactor - currently at 300gph flow 24hr/day
3x250W Radiums on HQI ballasts (Blue Waves) - full size LAIII reflectors - bulbs 11" from water

Fish list:
XXL Blonda Naso
1 - Purple Tang - Med
1 - Blue Hippo- Med
1 - Kole Tang - Sm/Med
2 - Bellus Angels
1 - CBB - Med
4 - Green chromis
1 - Barbonius Anthia - Med
1 - Bartlett Anthia - Med
3 - Clowns - Sm
1 - LMB - Large
3 - Bangaii - Med

I've thought I was onto something a couple times:

First, Alk was pretty low and I did a lot of research and decided on two-part to help raise and stabilize it. I dose with a BRS pump and am currently at 40ml/day along with Calc which is currently 45ml/day. The Alk has been rock steady at 7dkh for three months now. I test it weekly with a Salifert, API, Lamotte, and Elos kit (yes, all 4 every week - believe it or not).

Second, although I was battering my alk with tests, I was only checking calc weekly with an API kit. For giggles, I ordered an Elos calc kit and thought I had really latched onto something when it showed my calc at 360. I tested it 3 times to be sure and backed it up the next day with a Salifert kit that I raced home after purchasing the next day to double check with. It confirmed what the Elos kit was saying and I thought I had hit the motherload. I spent a week bringing the calc level up and it has been steady at 420-430 for over a month now.

Current zeo dosing schedule:
3L zeolites changed every two months
12 drops bac 2x/week (same # drops for 7 days after zeolite change)
6 drops zeofood each time bac is dosed
Start2 - 1.0ml/day split 0.5 in AM and 0.5 in PM
AA - 12 drops every other day
CV - 12 drops every other day (opposite AA)
SP - 8 drops every other day
Xtra - 5ml every other day

Other info:
>I run a regular RO/DI size canister of GAC in a BRS reactor and swap it every month.
>Salinity = 1.026 and I check it often with a nice VeeGee refracto that I check calibration on about once a month (this is a VERY nice refracto compared to the less expensive ones BTW)
>I was on a 8 week stint with GetTanked ULNS salt but recently switched to RedSea Coral Pro per some private suggestions a few weeks ago. I was using a 50/50 mix of Oceanic and IO prior to that. I do 25g water changes per week.
>I also check NO3 and PO3 with Hanna meters weekly. NO3 is usually 4ppm-5ppm while PO3 is always either 0.02 or 0.03.
>Potassium checks out at what I believe to be around 380 using the KZ kit but I have to admit that I have a VERY hard time reading that kit. There is a chance that it is lower and I have never dosed their potassium supplment (K-balance). Maybe that's my solution but I would be surprised by this.
>I feed my fish/tank VERY well - 3 or 4 cubes of mysis per day, a large pinch of Formula 1 or 2 flakes per day, and usually some sort of supplement (oyster eggs, reef chili, phyto, etc.). Also, a sheet of nori once or twice per week. My fish love me and are VERY healthy.

Hopefully this will help explain my setup and situation. I truly feel like I have been very "hands on" and on top of all the suggestions and guidelines the zeo manual and community have had to offer. I guess this sorta turned into a bit of a ramble - my apologies for that. :thumbsup:

 

[toothman]

It sounds like you have a similar system to me, I have quit ZEO 2.5 times and I am at the .5 time. My view of zeo is it is just a pain, it also keeps sps in a partially bleached state, not the best health for acros. As you mentioned the Kz kit is very hard to read. I have added a drop of k strong to the test water and can still see through to the color. I would be very interested in what happens with the following.

Turn your skimmer off and stop all supplements except ca, kh and mg and make sure they are accurate. I turned off my bubbleking 300 internal for 2 weeks now and my tank has really looks much better. I do not think I can keep the skimmer off forever but I do think zeo really starves the acros. Also keep feedings med to light.

 

[jkopp36]

Thanks for the reply toothman. I believe you are absolutley correct on the corals starving. I believe this because the seem to do fine for the first 2-4 weeks then go downhill from there. In trying your idea, would I leave the zeolites in the system?

 

[Kshack]

I have been using Zeovit for over 1 year and struggle to get things just right. Yesterday I went to a local reefer that was taking down his tank and his corals were very nicely colored. My tank is full and I picked up some of his frags just because they looked so good. He is a a beginner and I tested some of his water after I put the frags in the tank.
Alk: 5.5
Nitrate: over 30
PO4: 0.13

Now I am scratching my head wondering how his tank looked so good and his numbers look so bad. Possibly the Zeovit is so good at reducing nutrients that we have to put back more? (more little blue bottles please?)
My tank
Alk: 7.5
Nitrate: 0.2
PO4: 0.04

 

[sowellj]

I have been using Zeovit for over 1 year and struggle to get things just right. Yesterday I went to a local reefer that was taking down his tank and his corals were very nicely colored. My tank is full and I picked up some of his frags just because they looked so good. He is a a beginner and I tested some of his water after I put the frags in the tank.
Alk: 5.5
Nitrate: over 30
PO4: 0.13

Now I am scratching my head wondering how his tank looked so good and his numbers look so bad. Possibly the Zeovit is so good at reducing nutrients that we have to put back more? (more little blue bottles please?)
My tank
Alk: 7.5
Nitrate: 0.2
PO4: 0.04

that is somewhat the point of running a zeotype system. Totally strip you water, then selectively add back nutrients. The addition can be as simple (feed heavy) or as complex (lots of blue bottles) as you want to make it.

 

[TheMikey]

I'm by no means a MH expert (only ever been with T5s) but that looks like a lot of light for that shallow of depth. What's your acclimatization and placement of your SPS like? Maybe you're putting them too high up in the tank too soon and that's causing the issue?

 

[jkopp36]

I'm by no means a MH expert (only ever been with T5s) but that looks like a lot of light for that shallow of depth. What's your acclimatization and placement of your SPS like? Maybe you're putting them too high up in the tank too soon and that's causing the issue?

The research I did previous to deciding on the 250's was whether or not they would be enough light. It has actually been suggested by some that I may not have enough and should be using 400's. I actually switched from IceCap ballasts to the Bluewaves in order to get a little more PAR out of them since the Bluewaves will properly overdrive the Radiums. I have the same issues with corals no matter where I start or end up with them as far as height in the tank goes. For reference, a local reefer who has had great success with zeovit (shadowramy here on RC) has the exact same tank as I and is using 400's over it. Matter of fact, our setups are very similar although he does have a nicer BK skimmer. He's given me a lot of good info and advice but nothing has seemed to help.

 

[finksmart]

You mentioned that you change your stones once 2 months. My understanding is that the stones generally get exhausted after 30 days. So it may seem that for another month the stones are not being utilized to their fullest extent. Could it be that the 2nd month your systems is not processing as much nutrient, then when you do change stones the nutrient get drastically reduced, causing unstable nutrient level? We all know how unstable levels or any kind can be detrimental to SPS.

Also, the effect of alk. swing you mention is more detrimental in a Zeo system. And it would take the corals a lot longer to come back. This coupled with the fact that Zeo makes SPS more sensitive to changes, or in other words less hardy, may also contribute to your struggle. This is why they stress getting your levels stable before starting Zeo or your corals can suffer.

 

[mpoletti]

Also, the effect of alk. swing you mention is more detrimental in a Zeo system. And it would take the corals a lot longer to come back. This coupled with the fact that Zeo makes SPS more sensitive to changes, or in other words less hardy, may also contribute to your struggle. This is why they stress getting your levels stable before starting Zeo or your corals can suffer.

ditto :thumbsup:


I may be the odd man out here, but I do not believe ZEOvit is not a magical answer in a bottle overnight. If people go into it beieving that, I think they have set themselves up and its a complex methodology that definitely has its ups and downs

Am I using ZEOvit? YES
Do I believe there is something to it? YES
Can you use ZEOvit without bleaching your tank? Yes
Do I understand it completely? No
Did I use to knock it? Kind of (thats why I am figuring it out)

 

[finksmart]

Mark is correct. It's not a silver bullet. I spoke to a vendor that uses ZeoVit and he told me it can take up to a year for a system to stabilize and be ready for you to tweak the colors of the corals. Most of the time in the beginning you are just trying to find that point of balance where nutrient export = nutrient import. When you hit that point, and only you the tank owner would know if you are there, you can start to tweak the colors as you like with the supplement. It's understandable that ppl would knock it as they keep the inner working such a secret. I wish they'd tell us more too.

 

[mpoletti]

Mark is correct. It's not a silver bullet. I spoke to a vendor that uses ZeoVit and he told me it can take up to a year for a system to stabilize and be ready for you to tweak the colors of the corals. Most of the time in the beginning you are just trying to find that point of balance where nutrient export = nutrient import. When you hit that point, and only you the tank owner would know if you are there, you can start to tweak the colors as you like with the supplement. It's understandable that ppl would knock it as they keep the inner working such a secret. I wish they'd tell us more too.

Thanks Kenny and I feel your same frustration. I guess that is why it has taken me a couple years to finally take the plunge; even with a fully stocked tank.

All I can say is that my water is much clearer and it takes an extra day before I have to use a magnet on the glass

 

[Shadowramy]

I have been doing zeovit going on 3 years now with very good results, before that I used a hybrid method of zeovit and prodibio. The only time I had any real issues was when I was switching from a CaRx to 2-part. I lost alot of corals trying to dial in my alk, eventually I just went back to a CaRx.

When I started I took me a good 6 months before could really see major changes in both color and polyp extension. If I learned one thing with zeo it is you need to feed more not less, even skipping a day can show.

I try to keep my N and P in the .09-.05 range and do not go lower, if I do go lower the coral will lighten up too much and PE will stop.

 

[jkopp36]

Well, apparently zeo just isn't for me then. I honestly thought I had been doing a pretty good job of learning and staying on top of things. I am going to stop dosing all products today and begin removing the zeolites in small amounts over the next couple weeks until they are gone. I'll post back with an update in a month or two.

 

[orangekush4]

What ever happend to a good water change and a nice skimmer. Pay a bunch of money to take out stuff and pay more money to add more stuff. The ALK swing you had proly did them corals in. IMO running that low of ALK is asking for trouble. My buddy owns a LFS that he runs a Zeovit 120 and he had the same problem after using the rocks. Before that the tank looked great with just the Zeovit addtives. He had alot of flow in the reactor and unstable ALK. Most all his corals started RTNing. You have to start slow with the reactor at first. I don't use Zeovit but seen the problems people can have with it.Good luck.

 

[toothman]

jkopp36 I have been acitvely growing acros for 6 yrs. I really think it is easier than most people think. I am rather anti everything. My tank is 400 gals and total 600 gals. It really runs best when my skimmer is off, no carbon, no gfo and no zeo additives. I really try to keep and think phosphates should be lower than .06 hanna, nitrate near 0 with salifert. I use a dosing pump for ca, kh and mg it works great. I had a ca reactor but it seemed to stress some of the more delicate acros. I do use gfo and seachem phos beads and think both are irritants to polys and cause them to retract, no polyp extension. I will generally put it in a bag and keep it in for 2 days a week.

The most important thing is the 10 % water changes each week. Keeping ca, kh and mg correct. I also only run my skimmer about 2 days a week possibly the bubble king skimmer is too effective to run 24 /7. I do feed daily but about a 3/4 inch cube daily. I do not know if this is a lot.

So this is my normal care. I have tried zeo several times and a bunch of money later I too am not super sold on zeo. I do think Zeo spur 2 is a amazing product and have used this with great success with out using the whole system. Other additves, amino acids: darken corals, Pohls extra and iron is a algea grower.

 

[HANDYANDY]

when running zedovit or fauna marin system i thought you should have at least 1 to 2 inches of sand in the bottom to absorb the fauna ?

 

[prodman]

Its your choice to keep it up or not. But to be clear you are not following the suggestions for a zeo system. It is recommended to maintain levels of natural seawater potassium being one of them, also to keep a sand bed and to change stones closer to 4-6 weeks in the earlier phases. I have also heard some horror stories with get tanked salt and zeo so I would not count that out. I honestly get tired of people complaining about zeo when they don't use it as intended. A fair complaint would be thats its complicated not that it doesn't work.

 

[toothman]

Prodman, I have been keeping tropical fish for 40 yrs and reef keeping for 10 yrs. I really do like to change things up or try something new, it is just more interesting. The Zeovit method would seem to be in this category. Purchasing and growing new corals especially small frags are really fun for me. I have no problem these days keeping wild colonies. I really would like to run the zeovit method for however long and enjoy it, unfortunately some of my healthy acros began to look unhealthy, with some stn about 2 months into the full zeovit method. They really just looked really hungry or starved and growth just stopped. I would like to get back to it some day, I just want my the animals to be healthy and happy.

In a way to understand zeovit better can you post some pictures of your tank, explain growth etc. I really would like to see a successful tank. Also explain a possible explanation for the stn and starved look with my tank. I will try to get some pictures up, of my tank.