Anyone seen drastic improvement from phosphate removers?

[foshizzle]

I'm thinking about adding some GFO to my system. Things are fine, but I'm mostly looking for better color and growth.

I plan to start slow to avoid the RTN issues. Any advice?

(Feel free to point me toward previous threads.)

 

[Caillou]

I've seen some inprovement from running a reactor. My hair algae proble has certainly slowed down a lot, still not completely gone yet but grows much much slower. Still trying to figure out what is up with that though. I've only been running it about 3 weeks now and I like to think a couple of my browned out frags are coloring up. So hard to tell, I took pics when I added the reactor and I'll be comparing them at about 6 weeks.

 

[foshizzle]

I should have stated above:

I have little to no algae and Salifert PO4 tests at 0 now, I'm just wondering if GFO would help me get the trace levels of PO4 down low enough to make my colors pop.

 

[panic]

A phosban reactor helps make my water more clear definitely. I notice a little better color on lower acros and another $12 expense each month - I think it is worth it

 

[woodywoo]

Well I'm running 250ML of ROWA in one PHOSBAN REACTOR and I have seen a great improvement. I Would also try a little Vodka, I hear it removes PO4 too.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

There's no reason to think phosphate is particularly linked to coloration. If you're getting a 0 reading from your test kit, what makes you think you have a phosphate problem?

 

[iCam]

Be careful if you add it, and don't add more than is needed.

You could end up doing more harm than good.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7073433#post7073433 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
There's no reason to think phosphate is particularly linked to coloration. If you're getting a 0 reading from your test kit, what makes you think you have a phosphate problem?

Because all the phosphate test kits are crap.


I used phosbuster pro at one point..did all sorts of wierd things to my tanks. It also killed my red bugs. Wouldnt put it in my tank again.

 

[PITSTOP]

I love my phosban reactor with phosban. I clearly notice the difference when I added it, and when I replace the media....but this is my individual system I am talking about! ;-)

 

[tstone]

I noticed a difference with my tank but not as much as I had hoped.
Phosphates are not detectable before or after but I did see some improvement with the algae growth

 

[MCsaxmaster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7074130#post7074130 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Because all the phosphate test kits are crap.

Why do you say that?

 

[robthorn]

most phosphates do as they state. test for phosphate that is inorganic. you can buy an expensive test if you want to check your organic phosphates. hobby kits are misleading I agree but they do what they say for the better ones.

 

[foshizzle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7073433#post7073433 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
There's no reason to think phosphate is particularly linked to coloration. If you're getting a 0 reading from your test kit, what makes you think you have a phosphate problem?

Depends on your definition of a problem. Doesn't GFO remove organic PO4? I guess the goal is NSW levels. Like everyone else I'm trying to prevent excess zooxanthelae from masking color.

I'm not using zeovit, but why do you think it works? Extremely low nutrients, lots of food.

Po4 also inhibits calcification.

 

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7074989#post7074989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
Why do you say that?

Somebody brought a calorimeter (i think thats what its called) to one of our meetings, and we tested about 8 phosphate kits, and they were all WAY off. We then took the calorimeter thing down to NERAC, and had it tested against Atlantis's $10K machine, and it was consistently close to theirs


That being said, most of them dont have nearly the resolution to be useful, even if they were accurate.

 

[robthorn]

ferric products remove inorganic phosphates not organic. if there are organic in the water you can't test for I think they can be converted to inorganic and used as fast as converted so you never really get a reading of them in the water.

 

[Ti]

I didn't ntice much diff.

 

[tstone]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7075960#post7075960 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn
ferric products remove inorganic phosphates not organic. if there are organic in the water you can't test for I think they can be converted to inorganic and used as fast as converted so you never really get a reading of them in the water.

How do you convert organc to inorganic?

 

[robthorn]

as far as I know it's a chemical reaction that happens naturally. I am not sure if it is only some, a little or all that gets converted. reading the nutrient articles in the first 4 coral magazines will tell you how it works a little and gives references where to look further for a better understanding but I have not made it that far yet. with my profession and living in florida I am extremely busy right now but after summer I wil be sure to catch up.

 

[MCsaxmaster]

most phosphates do as they state. test for phosphate that is inorganic. you can buy an expensive test if you want to check your organic phosphates. hobby kits are misleading I agree but they do what they say for the better ones.

But unless there is problematic algae growth, what does it particularly matter what the organic phosphorus concentrations are? Orthophosphate can poison calcification by interrupting the building of CaCO3 crystals, but organic sources of phosphorus aren't involved in this. As such, why would that be problematic for the corals?

Depends on your definition of a problem. Doesn't GFO remove organic PO4? I guess the goal is NSW levels. Like everyone else I'm trying to prevent excess zooxanthelae from masking color.

Nope, just inorganic phosphorus (especially orthophosphate) as Rob said. Besides, zooxanthellae are likely N-limited, not P-limited. Fertilizing them with P shouldn't get a growth response under normal circumstances.

I'm not using zeovit, but why do you think it works? Extremely low nutrients, lots of food.

Sure. Isn't that the goal of every method of reefkeeping?

Po4 also inhibits calcification.

Yup, but organic P doesn't, hence my query.

Somebody brought a calorimeter (i think thats what its called) to one of our meetings, and we tested about 8 phosphate kits, and they were all WAY off. We then took the calorimeter thing down to NERAC, and had it tested against Atlantis's $10K machine, and it was consistently close to theirs

A spectrophotometer perhaps? Definitely interesting though. Really, I think the hobby needs an independent verification of the precision and accuracy of the test kits we use. If I recall correctly (which I may not be doing) I've heard from Randy Holmes-Farley that the little bit of looking that has been done has shown reasonably good accuracy with Salifert kits. Independent verification would be a very good thing though.

That being said, most of them dont have nearly the resolution to be useful, even if they were accurate.

How do you mean?

How do you convert organc to inorganic?

Mostly through decomposition, especially microbial. Usually three primary measures are taken of P in a water column: particulate organic P (POP), dissolved org. P (DOP) and dissolved inorg. P (DIP). The POP in reef water is mostly bacteria, a little phytoplankton, and a lot of detritus. The DOP is mostly partially decomposed detritus. The DIP is mostly orthophosphate (PO4) with a few other forms also present. One can also look further ant the POP and classify it as allochthonous, autochthonous, etc. DOP is harder to study, so not as much known about that.

as far as I know it's a chemical reaction that happens naturally. I am not sure if it is only some, a little or all that gets converted. reading the nutrient articles in the first 4 coral magazines will tell you how it works a little and gives references where to look further for a better understanding but I have not made it that far yet. with my profession and living in florida I am extremely busy right now but after summer I wil be sure to catch up.

Yeah, mostly microbial decomposition of organic matter which ultimately releases P mostly as PO4. This would happen slowly just through chemical reactions though, even without decomposers, but would be really, really slow.

That series in Coral (which I think is generally an OK magazine) is utterly frought with errors. Actually, I stopped buying them after about the 3rd or 4th part of that series. Much of what that series (some parts worse than others) states as fact is completely, completely baseless. The author seems to not have done any research on the issue. It's a bit like arguing that the moon is made of cheese No...no it's not.

Best,

Chris

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7080822#post7080822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
A spectrophotometer perhaps?

One of these, I believe:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/review/view?searchterm=None

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7080822#post7080822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCsaxmaster
That series in Coral (which I think is generally an OK magazine) is utterly frought with errors. Actually, I stopped buying them after about the 3rd or 4th part of that series.

Me too. Money better spent on Sorokin's book, IMO.
Then again, that's a lot harder to get through