Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[nynick]

Although.... why is that it that there are many amazing SPS tanks lit by T5? Choosing T5 bulbs is similar to playing with LED color channels, is it not? :crazy1:

Mainly coverage. No shadows with T5's so no dead spots. It is great for growing stuff but leaves the tank looking a little flat and unnatural imo.

 

[shred5]

More blue and less of everything else are the same thing.

Look at it this way. MH bulbs all run at around the same efficiency, so if a 250W radium bulb puts out only 10% of its light outside the blue range, that means 90% of its output is blue.

Say a 250W Iwasiki bulb puts out 50% outside the blue range. That leaves only 50% of its output in the blue range.

50% of 250 watts is less than 90% of 250 watts, so the Iwasaki would put out considerable less of its total output in the blue range.

No you are looking at percentage of spectrum.. Light is energy.. What puts more blue a 250 or a 400 radium... There spectral charts are the same are they not ? But why use a 400 watt over a 250?

Iwasakis have always been known to put out allot of blue.. And it really does not matter anyway, my point was it has a good amount of blue but you cant see that blue..

I can have a 250 watt radium over a tank and it looks blue.. Now I take two iwasaki's or what ever 6500 or 5500 k lamps and put them next to the Radium...
The tank will now appear more white and probably not blue at ll.. Does this mean there is less blue, no actually there is more blue than before but it does not look like it and that's is my point. The eye really cant see different spectrum's well... By looking at a iwasaki you would never know there is blue in it..

 

[d2mini]

Mainly coverage. No shadows with T5's so no dead spots. It is great for growing stuff but leaves the tank looking a little flat and unnatural imo.

I agree. Which is why I like to use them as supplements to my mh. They let me tweak the overall color slightly, they give me a dusk dawn and they fill in the shadows. Used them once as the only lighting over my tank and it was much too flat/shadowless for my tastes.

 

[Wazzel]

Two reasons really.. They come from deeper water mostly and are used to more blue light. Most people run their leds with two much blue because they like the pop... This can cause browning in some corals.

Most Sps come form shallower water and are used to a wider spectrum of light and are also hit with UV.. UV is what causes the coloration in some sps especially those that sit out of the water at low tide baking in the sunlight.
Those colors in sps are proteins and pigments used as a sunscreen to block UV..

LEDS don't put out UV, actually some do but they cost more than a led fixture costs right now. Now what will happens to those pigments once you take that UV away? they will adapt by loosing those pigments most likely.

Fact of the matter is leds put out enough par for photosynthesis and chlorophyll and growth that is not a issue. . But the colors have to do with spectrum and UV sometimes
Some people with leds just need to turn the blue down and the white up to see a improvement in color. But there are a few sps that have pigments that act as sunscreens to UV and those colors will most likely change with out the UV.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all lights...

I will most likely never use halides again unless I have a massive tank because of the heat and energy they use.... But I do recognize for some sps they are the better light for coloration. It does not mean that all sps will look ugly and allot will color up nicely under led. For lps and softies I don't think it matters...

It is interesting you make that comment when the radium bulb seems to a favorite. It's spectral plot mimics light deeper than at surface. If you wanted to give surface dwelling corals proper light why not use a 6500K bulb? Granted they will probably not look as nice as a 20,000K bulb, but it would be closer to thier natural light.

 

[nynick]

It is interesting you make that comment when the radium bulb seems to a favorite. It's spectral plot mimics light deeper than at surface. If you wanted to give surface dwelling corals proper light why not use a 6500K bulb? Granted they will probably not look as nice as a 20,000K bulb, but it would be closer to thier natural light.

This word natural is being thrown around a lot, not only in reefing. For the most part it is a totally pointless term and often it is used in some idealized way. It certainly is with reef tanks.

We tend to think of natural as that perfectly timed dusk moment you see on national Geographic, however.... For the most part natural is corals looking like dirty socks, randomly occurring cancers and zebras being eaten alive on the savannah...it sucks!

It sure does have it's moments though.

 

[d2mini]

This word natural is being thrown around a lot, not only in reefing. For the most part it is a totally pointless term and often it is used in some idealized way. It certainly is with reef tanks.

We tend to think of natural as that perfectly timed dusk moment you see on national Geographic, however.... For the most part natural is corals looking like dirty socks, randomly occurring cancers and zebras being eaten alive on the savannah...it sucks!

It sure does have it's moments though.

Please. Let's not argue over the word "natural" again.
When someone says it, most of us know what they mean by it.

 

[Wazzel]

This word natural is being thrown around a lot, not only in reefing. For the most part it is a totally pointless term and often it is used in some idealized way. It certainly is with reef tanks.

We tend to think of natural as that perfectly timed dusk moment you see on national Geographic, however.... For the most part natural is corals looking like dirty socks, randomly occurring cancers and zebras being eaten alive on the savannah...it sucks!

It sure does have it's moments though.

I totally agree with you. Natural is really not what most of us are shooting for, weather we admit it or not. We want a nice looking piece of living art that looks natural-ish.

 

[dankreef]

This word natural is being thrown around a lot, not only in reefing. For the most part it is a totally pointless term and often it is used in some idealized way. It certainly is with reef tanks.

We tend to think of natural as that perfectly timed dusk moment you see on national Geographic, however.... For the most part natural is corals looking like dirty socks, randomly occurring cancers and zebras being eaten alive on the savannah...it sucks!

It sure does have it's moments though.

Hahaha that's awesome made me laugh.

 

[shred5]

It is interesting you make that comment when the radium bulb seems to a favorite. It's spectral plot mimics light deeper than at surface. If you wanted to give surface dwelling corals proper light why not use a 6500K bulb? Granted they will probably not look as nice as a 20,000K bulb, but it would be closer to thier natural light.

I agree..

I love Iwasakis and yes for shallow water sps it would be good, I have a friend who still uses them on his sps frag tanks.... It was one of my favorite lamps with two vho actinics... But I dont want to get into which halide is better, really has nothing to do with this thread...

 

[Mikefromaz]

I totally agree with you. Natural is really not what most of us are shooting for, weather we admit it or not. We want a nice looking piece of living art that looks natural-ish.

There is no doubt that there are stunning colors in a natural reef environment probably more so from the fish than corals at least generally speaking. What we try to synthesize in our tanks is the illusion of the expanse of the reef experience. Its no different than the polar bear or zebra "environment" at the zoo. If people in general were more familiar with the reef they would probably consider glowing corals humorous kind of like dyeing zebras purple. What we create is an illusion which can be beautiful to look at, nothing more nothing less. ALL the lights we use MH, T5, LED, and PC grow coral. It is fair to tell friends " this reef is my creation", but nothing like reality.

 

[jdmneon]

Natural is really not what most of us are shooting for

99% of the time, a coral in nature will be much, much uglier than one in well kept reef aquarium, human beings pick the most beautiful corals they can find in the wild, then in many cases take it a step further and selectively breed them. I have been diving and most coral that I see below a certain depth are just brown, in fact brown is by far and away the most common color for SPS coral, in some of the reefs I've seen in the Caribbean the sponges are actually a lot more colorful than the coral.

another thing I see very often, not only in this hobby but in almost any type of animal care is trying to replicate the exact conditions that occur in nature.

just because the most beautiful reef in the world has certain conditions, it doesn't make those conditions ideal for coral growth. a lot of the time the natural environment is actively preventing organisms from reaching their full potential. A perfect example of this is in Freshwater plants, water found in nature does not have enough C02 for these plants to reach their full growth potential, by injecting C02 artificially we can do a much better job than nature.


human beings evolved in certain conditions in Africa, an alien from another planet attempting to keep a human being might mistakenly try and replicate these exact conditions assuming these conditions would make us the most happy, but if they did so our lives would be much shorter and we would be much more unhealthy than we are in modern society. We much prefer year around air condition, heating, modern medicine, etc.

the aim of this hobby should not be to recreate a slice of the natural reef, it should be to create something better than a natural reef, it should be to make coral much better of than they would be in your tank than they would be in nature.

as to the other part of this debate, the Metal Halide vs. LED lighting, Metal Halides are obsolete(I said it) they have already been deprecated in the commercial industry, they are in the process of being deprecated in the reef aquarium industry but it is taking longer because of the specialized requirements. The amount of money being spent on research into brighter/cooler/lower power LED's is absolutely staggering, the amount of money being spent on researching new kinds of Metal Halides is peanuts(if any research is being done at all)

I came back to the hobby from a four year break, and leaving Metal Halides behind is the best thing I ever did, I payed less money for an LED fixture that had a greater PAR

I looked up my old Metal Halide fixture and it was still the same exact price on Amazon as it was when I bought it five years ago, that means that there has essentially been 0 innovation. The manufacturing process hasn't become any more efficient, the bulbs don't put out anymore light, they are still power hungry etc.

when I received my LED's I was stunned, $ for $ they are better in every category

1. they are dimmable and the color temperature is controllable without buying another bulb
2. they were significantly cheaper
3. PAR value is roughly equal
4. they are not hot at all, in fact I can touch one of the LED bulb, its pretty hot but I can do it, if I tried to do that with a Halide I would get a third degree burn, I used to burn my hands all the time accidently touching the ballast or bumping the fixture
5. no ridiculous Ballasts to deal with
6. no need to buy replacement bulbs all the time
7. much lower power consumption for the same amount of PAR

I have no idea why anyone would even think of going back

 

[Mikefromaz]

As I mentioned in a previous post, the light produced by MH grows great lookig coral and fantastic tanks. Those who like MH have a valid case when it comes to success. Unfortunatley they do remind me of the era of the "muscle cars" Hundreds of horsepower, enough to slam you into your seat whenever and got around 7mpg. passing everything on the road except a gas station. If the conundrum of expenses associated with MH is OK with users that's fine. I suspect as LED become the accepted norm they might even drive down MH cost but only because manufacturers will at some point will be forced to unload their MH inventory for lack of sales volume.

 

[d2mini]

I have no idea why anyone would even think of going back

So you posted before fully reading this thread?
Why people go back is pretty obvious and has been stated and shown visually many times in this huge thread. Even those who choose to stick with LED understand why some people either choose to go back to or stick with mh. As do those who run mh understand why many people choose to stick with LED. You've stated some advantages to LED and there are plenty of advantages to mh. Understanding one or the other shouldn't be a problem, especially if you have long term experience with both.

 

[ridetheducati]

when I received my LED's I was stunned, $ for $ they are better in every category

1. they are dimmable and the color temperature is controllable without buying another bulb
2. they were significantly cheaper
3. PAR value is roughly equal
4. they are not hot at all, in fact I can touch one of the LED bulb, its pretty hot but I can do it, if I tried to do that with a Halide I would get a third degree burn, I used to burn my hands all the time accidently touching the ballast or bumping the fixture
5. no ridiculous Ballasts to deal with
6. no need to buy replacement bulbs all the time
7. much lower power consumption for the same amount of PAR

I have no idea why anyone would even think of going back

The advantages listed above does not necessarily matter to polyp peepers.

 

[Wazzel]

I hate to say this, but at some point in time I think MH users will be forced to make a technology switch due to lamps no longer being availible. Our hobby really is small and I do not see how companies could stay in busness just supplying lamps to reef keepers. It will be a shame really. I have no intention to going back to MH, but it is a good selection for reef lighting and having less options is never good.

 

[Bpb]

@jdmneon. I agree with just about everything you said until you began listing the reasons led lighting is a better choice for sps growth and color. I especially agree with most corals appearing brown in nature.

The problem with the list at the end is it doesn't address the two biggest reasons people still use mh. Ease of use and results. Nobody uses them because they like burning their knuckles while aquascaping and feeding. Or paying extra in utilities, or the excitement of new bulbs. Oh boy! Nosir it's in the results. I've still only seem a handful of sps dominant tanks that look great under LEDs. Maybe it's user error.

 

[Wazzel]

@jdmneon. I agree with just about everything you said until you began listing the reasons led lighting is a better choice for sps growth and color. I especially agree with most corals appearing brown in nature.

The problem with the list at the end is it doesn't address the two biggest reasons people still use mh. Ease of use and results. Nobody uses them because they like burning their knuckles while aquascaping and feeding. Or paying extra in utilities, or the excitement of new bulbs. Oh boy! Nosir it's in the results. I've still only seem a handful of sps dominant tanks that look great under LEDs. Maybe it's user error.

Not user error, but lack of tank run hours to get proper operating conditions. MH has lots of tank run hours and has been dialed in quite well. LED is here to stay.

 

[Stlouphil]

99% of the time, a coral in nature will be much, much uglier than one in well kept reef aquarium, human beings pick the most beautiful corals they can find in the wild, then in many cases take it a step further and selectively breed them. I have been diving and most coral that I see below a certain depth are just brown, in fact brown is by far and away the most common color for SPS coral, in some of the reefs I've seen in the Caribbean the sponges are actually a lot more colorful than the coral.



another thing I see very often, not only in this hobby but in almost any type of animal care is trying to replicate the exact conditions that occur in nature.



just because the most beautiful reef in the world has certain conditions, it doesn't make those conditions ideal for coral growth. a lot of the time the natural environment is actively preventing organisms from reaching their full potential. A perfect example of this is in Freshwater plants, water found in nature does not have enough C02 for these plants to reach their full growth potential, by injecting C02 artificially we can do a much better job than nature.





human beings evolved in certain conditions in Africa, an alien from another planet attempting to keep a human being might mistakenly try and replicate these exact conditions assuming these conditions would make us the most happy, but if they did so our lives would be much shorter and we would be much more unhealthy than we are in modern society. We much prefer year around air condition, heating, modern medicine, etc.



the aim of this hobby should not be to recreate a slice of the natural reef, it should be to create something better than a natural reef, it should be to make coral much better of than they would be in your tank than they would be in nature.



as to the other part of this debate, the Metal Halide vs. LED lighting, Metal Halides are obsolete(I said it) they have already been deprecated in the commercial industry, they are in the process of being deprecated in the reef aquarium industry but it is taking longer because of the specialized requirements. The amount of money being spent on research into brighter/cooler/lower power LED's is absolutely staggering, the amount of money being spent on researching new kinds of Metal Halides is peanuts(if any research is being done at all)



I came back to the hobby from a four year break, and leaving Metal Halides behind is the best thing I ever did, I payed less money for an LED fixture that had a greater PAR



I looked up my old Metal Halide fixture and it was still the same exact price on Amazon as it was when I bought it five years ago, that means that there has essentially been 0 innovation. The manufacturing process hasn't become any more efficient, the bulbs don't put out anymore light, they are still power hungry etc.



when I received my LED's I was stunned, $ for $ they are better in every category



1. they are dimmable and the color temperature is controllable without buying another bulb

2. they were significantly cheaper

3. PAR value is roughly equal

4. they are not hot at all, in fact I can touch one of the LED bulb, its pretty hot but I can do it, if I tried to do that with a Halide I would get a third degree burn, I used to burn my hands all the time accidently touching the ballast or bumping the fixture

5. no ridiculous Ballasts to deal with

6. no need to buy replacement bulbs all the time

7. much lower power consumption for the same amount of PAR



I have no idea why anyone would even think of going back

As stated in PREVIOUS BILLION posts for those switching back to MH, NONE of the reasons you state are important. They switch because LEDs lack something that MH provided. Better growth and color. I know it will take a while to get through the endless number posts at least read the OP post. : /

Nook I think I said that nicely. : )

 

[trueperc]

For sure led is here to stay but as users and manufactors are still in the learning phase as to what we need in turns of led to match the success or do better than metal halides. Which a thread like this some clear examples of that. Not saying there are not great examples of led tanks, but most of them I find there are using equal too more more wattage as it would require for metal halides. Also looking at just the difference in 2-3 years of leds fixtures have change and its looking like even next year or two are changing yet again due to learning through trial an error. Its clearly being shown time and time again you need almost double of what the manufactor states you need in terms of fixtures. The color combos are constantly changings with much different optics. Looking at the newest fixtures that are soon to be releashed from ATI, maxspect, fluval, kessil and other are all completely different with the almost chip board or multiple led enclose in one huge reflector. All this clearly shows we have still a lot learn about getting it right with leds to match the already success of metal halide. Personaly I now run a combo of kessil and 250w mh.

 

[Wazzel]

For sure led is here to stay but as users and manufactors are still in the learning phase as to what we need in turns of led to match the success or do better than metal halides. Which a thread like this some clear examples of that. Not saying there are not great examples of led tanks, but most of them I find there are using equal too more more wattage as it would require for metal halides. Also looking at just the difference in 2-3 years of leds fixtures have change and its looking like even next year or two are changing yet again due to learning through trial an error. Its clearly being shown time and time again you need almost double of what the manufactor states you need in terms of fixtures. The color combos are constantly changings with much different optics. Looking at the newest fixtures that are soon to be releashed from ATI, maxspect, fluval, kessil and other are all completely different with the almost chip board or multiple led enclose in one huge reflector. All this clearly shows we have still a lot learn about getting it right with leds to match the already success of metal halide. Personaly I now run a combo of kessil and 250w mh.

The last 2-3 has been interesting from an LED stand point. If I would have gotten back into the hobby sooner than this year I doubt I would have gone LED because of where the tech was. I think it is in the fine tuning phase and that information will need to come from users. I have not looked at the new fixtures yet. I am going to stick with my Hydra 52 for a while.

Personally I have nothing agains MH. If it would not have been for the Hydra 52 and the latest Radion I would have done a 250 watt/t-5 combo similar to my last tank that had 250 watt/VHO.