Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

Rather than prove that UV or IR is necessary, we should be providing it until it is proven that it is not.

ANY successes w/ "old style" LED's proves that..
doesn't have to be the best or most colorful..
Only healthy and growing.
doesn't even depend how "fast"
Sort of a low bar..

One just needs to look around..

most LED's don't even have "real" UV and zero IR to speak of..

Your definition of necessary is colored by your needs that probably 95% of the reefing world.. ..doesn't need.. commercial production.

your dislike of LED's is more subjective than objective barring the commercial aspect.
 
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Yes, they can grow some coral, which leads me to one of my peeves where people will post "any of them will grow coral!" Which coral? Why just growth and not the other important factors? This irks me a bunch like they are knowingly misleading people who might not be acutely aware enough to dissect the wording. I will not say that they are healthy... too many issues with shipping, parameter swings and other issues that are no problem in other systems to claim that they are healthy. I will only go with alive, not healthy.

Again, this is not proof, just an anecdote. Eating only McDonalds is not really proof that it is all that humans need to thrive... but there is probably no "proof" that McDonalds is not alone enough, either. Surviving with/without something is not proof that you could not do better without/with it. My grandmother smoked until she was 94 with no cancer or health problems - does this prove that smoking does not cause cancer? My apologies... I hate false equivalencies.

No, most LED do not have IR or UV to speak of... which is why a lot of get T5 bulbs added to them as the hobbyist gets a more breath and depth of experience. Has anybody ever seen a post where somebody added T5s to their panels and regretted it? Seriously? I am sure that they exist, but I cannot think of one off the top of my head. I am genuinely curious.
 
Yes, they can grow some coral,
how about a list of ones LED's don't grow at all..


most t5's have very little UV and only a smidge of IR
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=11627&pictureid=79595

No, most LED do not have IR or UV to speak of... which is why a lot of get T5 bulbs added to them as the hobbyist gets a more breath and depth of experience.

mostly added for spread not spectrum and besides .. you are ADDING "PAR"..and generally a lot of it..

ORPHEK and Phillips..........
orphek-atlantik-v4-vs-philips-coral-care-.png


https://orphek.com/best-light-spectrum-coral-growth/

Even w/ LED's IR is "theoretical"..
Theory:

Infrared light appears to play a role in the conversion of coral in synthesis and oxidation. However, there is still no proof of this.

However, it is proven in higher algae and tangs.
There is enough literature on the internet for this.
950Nm does not seem to matter due to the water penetration.

But what happens at low tide is uncertain.
https://translate.google.com/transl...tter/licht/infrarot-licht-nutzbar/&edit-text=

UV is "dumped" into a range :
This produces the chlorophyll S2, which forms carotenes and is much stronger in the oxidation than in the near Uv / Uv range of 360-420 Nm.
 
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Yes, they can grow some coral, which leads me to one of my peeves where people will post "any of them will grow coral!" Which coral? Why just growth and not the other important factors? This irks me a bunch like they are knowingly misleading people who might not be acutely aware enough to dissect the wording. I will not say that they are healthy... too many issues with shipping, parameter swings and other issues that are no problem in other systems to claim that they are healthy. I will only go with alive, not healthy.

Again, this is not proof, just an anecdote. Eating only McDonalds is not really proof that it is all that humans need to thrive... but there is probably no "proof" that McDonalds is not alone enough, either. Surviving with/without something is not proof that you could not do better without/with it. My grandmother smoked until she was 94 with no cancer or health problems - does this prove that smoking does not cause cancer? My apologies... I hate false equivalencies.

No, most LED do not have IR or UV to speak of... which is why a lot of get T5 bulbs added to them as the hobbyist gets a more breath and depth of experience. Has anybody ever seen a post where somebody added T5s to their panels and regretted it? Seriously? I am sure that they exist, but I cannot think of one off the top of my head. I am genuinely curious.

Lol I regretted adding T5HOs once because, I somehow knocked the bulb of the fixture and it dropped into the tank.

Aside from that I like them. Though I mainly like them for reducing shadowing issues.
 
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Hi all. Just my 2 cents. Im an EE. I did some research online and built a set of LED fixtures using the no name "3W" LEDs off ebay. Based on the light spectrum over a tropical reef at the equator, I picked 465nm, 450nm, 410nm, and 10k wavelengths. Ive got 5 of each staggered on an rough extruded aluminum scaffold that I got from Home depot, one 18inch length for each side of a 55gallon. I control them with an arduino mega 2560 sending four individual pwm signals to CAT4100 series LED drivers from ON semiconductor. I limit the max current to 700mA, and the PWM to between 3% and 90%. I wrote code for the arduino that simulates the diurnal cycle of the sun and translated it to PWM duty cycle so the the LEDs automatically cycle throughout the day with max intensity at noon. I added a moonlight cycle as well using a real time clock. Sorry for the run on description, but to make a long story short, Ive had it running for about 8 months and have had great results. Corals adapt to their environment, if you choose the key wavelengths, 410, 450, 460nm, they can adapt and be happy. My corals are all frags and have at least doubled in size since I started using the LEDs.

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Corals adapt to their environment, if you choose the key wavelengths, 410, 450, 460nm, they can adapt and be happy.

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I kinda agree with this. I am very skeptical that light in red and infrared spectrum is essential for corals or even provide any major benefits. That idea is mainly based on "Emerson effect". It basically shows that light around 700nm stimulates photosynthesis by activating photosystem I. The issue is, Emerson effect is studied mainly on land plants that are subjected to red and infrared in their natural envoriments.

Under water, light with waveleghts above 650nm do not penetrate more than 10 meters and this is for midday at tropics. On average coral reefs are found at depths 30-40 meters, so with the exception of corals that are found at extreme shallows, they all basically grow at light below 550nm. So what zoox use for photosynthesis for the majority of corals is mainly between 460nm to 350nm.

Image below shows the light penetration. Light blue is surface, blue is 5 meters and dark blue is 15 meters.

image_full


https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/10/aafeature

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/20...ider&utm_medium=slider&utm_campaign=clickthru
 
I kinda agree with this. I am very skeptical that light in red and infrared spectrum is essential for corals or even provide any major benefits.

Ultraviolet and red wavelengths are gradually removed from the spectrum resulting in a blue-green underwater light field at greater depths
Think most people stop a bit short on wavelength..should go up to at least 500nm.
I also believe that the higher intensity light you give the more you need "not blue" light..

corals behave completely different than land plants where the lack of blue (or more correctly more red) implies "shade" and different systems or different equilibriums are reached.

W/ corals red implies high light and as blue increases implies less light..relatively speaking.




Oh and currently deep water corals are receiving, in some cases, a broader spectrum due to the blue to green/yellow/red shift of fluorescent pigments..

The trend that fluorescence in mesophotic corals tends to be red-shifted compared to the shallow water representatives further points to a distinct biological function in corals from deeper habitats. Alternative functions of FPs, which have been discussed, include modulation of the activity of regulatory photosensors analogous to phytochromes and cryptochromes of higher plants [56], links to visual ecology of the reef fishes [57,58] and PAR enhancement [12]. Future experimental studies are required to confirm the function of fluorescence in mesophotic corals.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0128697
 
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I absolutely agree with sun being the best light source. Right half of my tank gets afternoon sunlight for ~1-3 hours depending on the season. I originally did not design it that way but about 10 years ago a blue pine tree next to to my house died and the tank stated to get sunlight after that. In summers I filter it trough a thin curtain but in winter, I mostly let sunlight get directly on to the tank. Corals of any kind (mostly light loving corals) on that side of the tank are the happiest and grow maybe 2 times faster than corals on the other side. There are some large colonies that are in between sun and no sun zone, you can easily see the difference based on color, growth pattern and rate based on the side of the colony that gets sunlight and side of the colony that doesn't get it. They also grow towards the window even if its only 1-3 hours versus ~10H of total light period. One nice feature is you can see how the colors of corals (mainly acros) change with season. Almost all get bright florescent green in summer while in winter they change back to purples, blues and yellows as suns intensity drops. Its funny that non of them were green acros when I get them, but I feel like all acros have the capacity to become green with enough light.

This tank had MH, T5s and LEDs (now T5 led combo) over the years, nothing come even close to the sun. I seriously think about building my next tank in a sun room. My only concern is heat and cold in the summer and winter as my sun room is not really heated or cooled aside from leaving the door to it from the house open. And I fear algae can take over the tank very rapidly if I run into some nutrient problems. I am also concerned about the intensity of the summer midday sun. All the people I talked about this said it can bleach corals, especially the ones that are not naturally found in the shallows or corals that were grown under artificial lights for extended periods of time. I would probably need to put some shading cloth or panels at certain angles to filter out the midday sun. The problem is, sun moves with seasons.

Also I dont agree acropora were easier to grow a decade ago. Imo very few acro were being imported and we were basically only getting the hardiest species/varieties as other were either not collected or died during the transport. Unwillingly, we basically generated and artificial selection system that only allowed hardy species to make it to our tanks. Few rare and less hardy species that made it were astronomically expensive. My friends in Australia had great acros (like smoothskin acros that blew my mind), since they could probably transport them more easily, but what I could find in US those days were slimiers and/or miliporas. Now with better collection and transport practices, we got more acros, some of them do very poorly in captivity.

I've had two of my tanks under sunlight and the health and growth is insane. It's without doubt the best, but it's so hard to control intensity and well, I ended up with brown sticks. Tidal Gardens uses a green house with sunlight, but ended shading most of the sunlight and running T5, soon they are going no sunlight. I can understand why, it's about the market, they want colour!

So far 10K XM halide,has produced results for me. I'd still like to try plasma!
 
ORA Has a lot of sun grown corals and their colors are pretty good


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There are so many talk, speculation, misunderstood science and misinformation plus personal sentiments in this thread.
Coral are highly adaptable, as long as the algae inside the coral is producing food via photosynthesis for the coral, the host coral will grow regardless which spectrum the algae is using for photosynthesis.
No IR? No problem.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi all. Just my 2 cents. Im an EE. I did some research online and built a set of LED fixtures using the no name "3W" LEDs

...

adapt and be happy. My corals are all frags and have at least doubled in size since I started using the LEDs.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I'll say it since maybe I can cover sole older ground here. :D

Looks is subjective. The point many Halide (and T5) users are making here is that once these are added, or switched back too, performance AND coloration AND health skyrockets, given good water quality.

The question is why?

The common argument is LED works for me! It's a non sequitur.

Another question, that has not been answered to my satisfaction, is if any LED combination can produce the results I get by adding T5's for a few hours a day. The reality is that if you can take a light that exactly matches one of the MH bulb types WITH equal spread (so not only spectrum but also spread w reflector) the result should be identical.

Unfortunately it may still not be that simple because there IS a difference between a filament light source and a diode. This may or may not make any damn difference at all, but unlike Halide and T5 if you slow time down the LED is blinking while the filament bulbs are not. Does this make a difference? Who knows? :)

^ note this is something I don't understand since LED is using a DC source, but you can generally see the effect from home bulbs by moving your hands in front of them. Someone clue me in on what this is, or if it applies to reef lighting. Do I have it backwards? LOL.
 
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There are so many talk, speculation, misunderstood science and misinformation plus personal sentiments in this thread.
Coral are highly adaptable, as long as the algae inside the coral is producing food via photosynthesis for the coral, the host coral will grow regardless which spectrum the algae is using for photosynthesis.
No IR? No problem.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do not think you have read the thread lately, This thread is relatively old and leds have come along way. I do not think anyone is debating leds can not grow coral anymore. There is allot more than just growth though..
 
Unfortunately it may still not be that simple because there IS a difference between a filament light source and a diode. This may or may not make any damn difference at all, but unlike Halide and T5 if you slow time down the LED is blinking while the filament bulbs are not. Does this make a difference? Who knows? :)


first none of the other common ones is "exactly" a filament light source
T5 excites phosphors by the photon emissions from a mercury "plasma" excited by err ..lightning. ;)

MH's excite mercury and metal salts by electrons.

NONE are close to "tungsten" like really.

Actually both also do "flicker".. the excitation is not 100% stable.
"Old" tech tubes flickered at the frequency of the line ie 60Hz


LED's "flicker" either due to pwm dimming or because power supplies are not "constant"
Switching power supplies pulse output at some set frequency to make them stable in voltage.
Unless poorly designed most LED flicker is at worst 500Hz, though yes it can show up as looking lower. not sure why exactly.
Well cameras can easily detect it w/ fast shutter speeds.
In home and AC issues may contribute.and cheap DC conversion circuitry.

Power supplies "flicker" at usually much higher frequencies.
Typical frequencies range from a few KHz to a few megahertz (20Khz-2MHz).
Ocean light "flickers" as well due to wind/wave/current/ particulate/fish action.

and like I tried to say is that you can match both PAR and color temp w/ LED and MH yet get different results due to "different" (not better or worse exactly) spectrums..

Not to mention it's pretty common knowledge that 6500K MH probably give both best growth and color.. Whether you see it or not..
yet who "prefers" them over say 10000K

See I listen.. ;)
ask yourself why?

In a sense the "knock" on LED vs MH is no different than saying
"you should use 6500k not 20000k MH's You will get better growth and color"
Yet that argument is rarely mentioned.. ;)

bottom line is everyone compromises somewhere.....depending on the goal.
guess to sort of complete this there is a difference between color and color you see..
 
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In a sense the "knock" on LED vs MH is no different than saying
"you should use 6500k not 20000k MH's You will get better growth and color"
Yet that argument is rarely mentioned.. ;)

bottom line is everyone compromises somewhere.....depending on the goal.
guess to sort of complete this there is a difference between color and color you see..

This is the only part I disagree with. As someone who grows acros, and has less experience than those in the hobby since the early days, I've seen the jump in health when adding T5, and I have enough LED's to duplicate the spread and the PAR, both Nanobox pucks and BML strips.

They didn't die under all LED, they just did better with T5's added for 5 hours a day.

I also don't know how to politely respond to those who say they get great growth under LED and then list numbers that, frankly, I wish I had because I'm tired of trimming all the time. It's not because I'm some kind of awesome reef keeper, my tank is ignored far too much of late. I would be willing to bet money that if someone with LED's and a PAR meter added 2 T5's, a blue+ and a coral+, and made sure to match PAR, the growth increase would amaze them. In addition, based on my limited experience, the acro colors would greatly increase to the point that now they would be asking the same question.

Why? Why can't I get this with all LED?

Either I am believed, or I'm not, and I doubt I'm going to change anyone's opinion. :D
 
i made the switch from three radion gen 2 to a 72 inch giesemann spectra with 3 radium bulbs. Switched over two weeks ago, my chalice corals and some lps are bleaching and dying off. I turned off the T5s and raised the light up, so we shall see what happens. hopefully this isnt to powerful for my tank
 
They didn't die under all LED, they just did better with T5's added for 5 hours a day.

so you ADDED more PAR or did you shut off the LEDs?
Why would it be surprising that adding more photons increased growth?

Maybe I'm missing something here...

I would be willing to bet money that if someone with LED's and a PAR meter added 2 T5's, a blue+ and a coral+, and made sure to match PAR, the growth increase would amaze them.

Pretty sure this was done and frankly there was a difference (but way short of "amazing", I'll try to find it. most web "experiments" are cr@p).. But again, no matter HOW you slice it, different spectrum..soooo which is it?
"Those" LED's or LED's??

I'm not trying to convince you one way or another.. JUST trying to show the logical fallacies of certain arguments..
Simplistic works fine but for those that seek "the truth" isn't cutting it..

For most it doesn't make any difference...

and to poke the bear again.. Shifting from 20000k to 6500K MH may show "amazing" growth.. ;)

something for everyone:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tzgerald.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0J-9wHK1p-RyDZ0cXYpmOE

Teaser:
Figure 7.11 Average growth rates for each tank at the three different levels with associated
standard deviations
The highest growth rate was experienced in the metal halide tank in the middle level , however its
associated standard deviation is also relatively large. The metal halide also experienced the lowest
growth rate for corals positioned on the top level.

Even though the metal halide did produce the highest growth rates, the other two lights still significantly increased the weight of the corals. Therefore it depends on the function the lights need to perform as to which ones can be used. If a fast growth rate is required then the metal halides are still the best option. However, if a steady growth is required then there is the possibility for T5 or LED lighting being used.

Same old same old LED used:
Reef White with seven 14,000K and three 50,000K LEDs
 
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