shred5
Premium Member
I do not think you have read the thread lately, This thread is relatively old and leds have come along way. I do not think anyone is debating leds can not grow coral anymore. There is allot more than just growth though..
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
I do not think you have read the thread lately, This thread is relatively old and leds have come along way. I do not think anyone is debating leds can not grow coral anymore. There is allot more than just growth though..
oreo57
Well-known member
Unfortunately it may still not be that simple because there IS a difference between a filament light source and a diode. This may or may not make any damn difference at all, but unlike Halide and T5 if you slow time down the LED is blinking while the filament bulbs are not. Does this make a difference? Who knows?
first none of the other common ones is "exactly" a filament light source
T5 excites phosphors by the photon emissions from a mercury "plasma" excited by err ..lightning.
MH's excite mercury and metal salts by electrons.
NONE are close to "tungsten" like really.
Actually both also do "flicker".. the excitation is not 100% stable.
"Old" tech tubes flickered at the frequency of the line ie 60Hz
LED's "flicker" either due to pwm dimming or because power supplies are not "constant"
Switching power supplies pulse output at some set frequency to make them stable in voltage.
Unless poorly designed most LED flicker is at worst 500Hz, though yes it can show up as looking lower. not sure why exactly.
Well cameras can easily detect it w/ fast shutter speeds.
In home and AC issues may contribute.and cheap DC conversion circuitry.
Power supplies "flicker" at usually much higher frequencies.
Ocean light "flickers" as well due to wind/wave/current/ particulate/fish action.
and like I tried to say is that you can match both PAR and color temp w/ LED and MH yet get different results due to "different" (not better or worse exactly) spectrums..
Not to mention it's pretty common knowledge that 6500K MH probably give both best growth and color.. Whether you see it or not..
yet who "prefers" them over say 10000K
See I listen..
ask yourself why?
In a sense the "knock" on LED vs MH is no different than saying
"you should use 6500k not 20000k MH's You will get better growth and color"
Yet that argument is rarely mentioned..
bottom line is everyone compromises somewhere.....depending on the goal.
guess to sort of complete this there is a difference between color and color you see..
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markalot
...
In a sense the "knock" on LED vs MH is no different than saying
"you should use 6500k not 20000k MH's You will get better growth and color"
Yet that argument is rarely mentioned..
bottom line is everyone compromises somewhere.....depending on the goal.
guess to sort of complete this there is a difference between color and color you see..
This is the only part I disagree with. As someone who grows acros, and has less experience than those in the hobby since the early days, I've seen the jump in health when adding T5, and I have enough LED's to duplicate the spread and the PAR, both Nanobox pucks and BML strips.
They didn't die under all LED, they just did better with T5's added for 5 hours a day.
I also don't know how to politely respond to those who say they get great growth under LED and then list numbers that, frankly, I wish I had because I'm tired of trimming all the time. It's not because I'm some kind of awesome reef keeper, my tank is ignored far too much of late. I would be willing to bet money that if someone with LED's and a PAR meter added 2 T5's, a blue+ and a coral+, and made sure to match PAR, the growth increase would amaze them. In addition, based on my limited experience, the acro colors would greatly increase to the point that now they would be asking the same question.
Why? Why can't I get this with all LED?
Either I am believed, or I'm not, and I doubt I'm going to change anyone's opinion.
Joe0813
Active member
i made the switch from three radion gen 2 to a 72 inch giesemann spectra with 3 radium bulbs. Switched over two weeks ago, my chalice corals and some lps are bleaching and dying off. I turned off the T5s and raised the light up, so we shall see what happens. hopefully this isnt to powerful for my tank
oreo57
Well-known member
so you ADDED more PAR or did you shut off the LEDs?
Why would it be surprising that adding more photons increased growth?
Maybe I'm missing something here...
Pretty sure this was done and frankly there was a difference (but way short of "amazing", I'll try to find it. most web "experiments" are cr@p).. But again, no matter HOW you slice it, different spectrum..soooo which is it?
"Those" LED's or LED's??
I'm not trying to convince you one way or another.. JUST trying to show the logical fallacies of certain arguments..
Simplistic works fine but for those that seek "the truth" isn't cutting it..
For most it doesn't make any difference...
and to poke the bear again.. Shifting from 20000k to 6500K MH may show "amazing" growth..
something for everyone:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tzgerald.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0J-9wHK1p-RyDZ0cXYpmOE
Teaser:
Same old same old LED used:
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Tripod1404
Active member
Just realized this thread has close to 1 million views :O.
markalot
...
You did.
Like I said, MATCH PAR using a PAR meter. I own one. More light does not always equal more growth by the way.And like I said, either you, they, them, believe it or you don't. I have the tank, I have the experience, I have the results that I like.
One final thing, because you seem to miss it every time.
ACROPORA COLOR AND GROWTH.
Even Ecotech could not SHOW the results using ACROPORA with their LED study, instead they showed a couple of pale montis.
All I care about is Acropora, everything else does fine under LED as far as I'm concerned.
3 months growth.
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oreo57
Well-known member
Hard to believe one source..
Sorry for the misunderstanding and clarification..
Anyways the funny thing is it's both ways...but like I tried to say I "believe" growing shallow water corals w/ blue and high k white LEd's is a mistake..It's not "the" leds but what LEDs
sorry this 3 yr old thread may need updating and a link to it is verboten..
but you get stuff like this:
a little of both..
https://www.(guess).com/threads/led...hed-some-light-on-this-topic-urrghhhh.203010/
Sorry for the misunderstanding and clarification..
Anyways the funny thing is it's both ways...but like I tried to say I "believe" growing shallow water corals w/ blue and high k white LEd's is a mistake..It's not "the" leds but what LEDs
sorry this 3 yr old thread may need updating and a link to it is verboten..
but you get stuff like this:
Good topic Scott and one I've been immersed in a while now myself. And with incredible results. Been saying it for a little while now, but I really believe the secret is in the warm/neutral whites. I ran fixtures with cools and warms over the same system and the results were very clearly discernable as to what worked and what didn't.
Not going for the plug here but to illustrate my convictions, everything in this pack but the purple guy was grown 100% under LEDs. I could show you many many more. Color's there and so is growth. For me the question as to "do they?" has long been answered. It's now more a question of "for how long?" And don't get me wrong I'm still running plenty of HID's, but every time I need to buy another 16 T5's or a round of radiums I'm closer to switching over. I may be in the minority on this one, but I have yet to have any real trade offs in the switch to leds. In a lot of cases my sps look better. I would not have believed it if I didn't see it with my own eyes. It took me a while to really accept it, but I can't deny what in from of me. Since you specifically asked for some details,
Aesthetically still inferior to the Radium in my opinion, I'll admit that I run halides over my own display. But for propagation, you cant hardly beat them if you ask me.
My advice Scott, would be to have someone build you a fixture (assuming you must have some LED's savoy friends) with plenty of warms and blues, and try them out over some sps in your main. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at what you see.
a little of both..
https://www.(guess).com/threads/led...hed-some-light-on-this-topic-urrghhhh.203010/
markalot
...
I run hybrid, as well indicated in my signature. I prefer the look of LED, T5 is too flat, Actually I prefer the look of Halide, but LED plus T5 gets me close. I don't run white LED's.
Show me the pictures that prove color and growth is there. We've been asking for years now. Bad cell phone pictures do not count, saying it's hard to show LED pics does not count.
This is my little 40 gallon, all LED. No acros in here.
Proper white balance is easy using the right tools, so I want to see some Acropora pics grown exclusively under LED showing the colors and growth we see when grown under T5 and Halide. That's all. With the picture please include the lights used, the light cycle, and the settings (spectrum etc). Also please include the total light wattage for reference so we know how much power we will be saving. Total cost for all lights would be helpful as well.
If it can be done we'd all be nuts not to switch.
Show me the pictures that prove color and growth is there. We've been asking for years now. Bad cell phone pictures do not count, saying it's hard to show LED pics does not count.
This is my little 40 gallon, all LED. No acros in here.
Proper white balance is easy using the right tools, so I want to see some Acropora pics grown exclusively under LED showing the colors and growth we see when grown under T5 and Halide. That's all. With the picture please include the lights used, the light cycle, and the settings (spectrum etc). Also please include the total light wattage for reference so we know how much power we will be saving. Total cost for all lights would be helpful as well.
If it can be done we'd all be nuts not to switch.
Tripod1404
Active member
One think with LEDs is that it atleast make keeping Clams easier. It is trange becouse even the most "low light" clam requires more light than most SPS corals and all clams can adapt to intense light that would bleach most corals. I have no idea why but I get much better growth from clams with LEDs compared to T5s or MHs. One derasa clam I got grew from ~2 inches to 10 inches in 18 months or so.
Maybe it is because Clams like hot spots generated by LEDs, or they like the intense directional light.
Maybe it is because Clams like hot spots generated by LEDs, or they like the intense directional light.
Tripod1404
Active member
I run hybrid, as well indicated in my signature. I prefer the look of LED, T5 is too flat, Actually I prefer the look of Halide, but LED plus T5 gets me close. I don't run white LED's.
Show me the pictures that prove color and growth is there. We've been asking for years now. Bad cell phone pictures do not count, saying it's hard to show LED pics does not count.
This is my little 40 gallon, all LED. No acros in here.
Proper white balance is easy using the right tools, so I want to see some Acropora pics grown exclusively under LED showing the colors and growth we see when grown under T5 and Halide. That's all. With the picture please include the lights used, the light cycle, and the settings (spectrum etc). Also please include the total light wattage for reference so we know how much power we will be saving. Total cost for all lights would be helpful as well.
If it can be done we'd all be nuts not to switch.
WOW is that a massive black cap basslet !!!
markalot
...
Ha, optical illusion I think.
Tiny tang. The 3 year old Basslet is fat, but not that big.
Tripod1404
Active member
dz6t
New member
This paper is very interesting, the author compared a 29w led, vs a 72w t5 and 250w metal halide.
Based on the growth rate reported, led looked like a hero here.
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Unless I'm reading things wrong, halide had the fastest growth rates, T5 and led did it far far more efficiently. The study only looked at montipora and did not mention coloration either ? Would have loved to have seen a wide range of corals over a year rather than 2 months. Would be interesting also to see this done with multiple LED brands, halide bulbs and T5. Study's like this are unfortunately very narrow and don't come close to hundreds of thousands of hobbyists tanks. Still always good to see these studies, with enough of them we will see a complete picture.
dz6t
New member
On the end of the paper, the three graph show the average growth rate for MH, LED and t5 are similar.
They match the PAR value for the three types of light sources instead of wattage.
It shows MH is almost 9 times less efficient in this study.
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They match the PAR value for the three types of light sources instead of wattage.
It shows MH is almost 9 times less efficient in this study.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
dz6t
New member
This is just a single study, but it was done in control laboratory conditions on real coral growth rate.
From my own experience for my coral farm, when PAR and coverage is similar, growth rate for acropora and montipora are similar. Acropoea is what I grow the most. I retired the last metal halide two month ago after 14 years of using them.
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From my own experience for my coral farm, when PAR and coverage is similar, growth rate for acropora and montipora are similar. Acropoea is what I grow the most. I retired the last metal halide two month ago after 14 years of using them.
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That's some serious inefficiency ! But I'm in so much denial with my halide, there's now way I'm ripping it off the tank what ever it's doing it seems to be up to some voodooo cause I'm seeing colours and lots of encrusting. I just know on my tank the XM 10k 250 would demolish my Ai Prime in theory they are same par ? I'm in denial
I visited my local hydro shop the other week and well...... some should break the news to them that led lights have been invented, cause they use nothing but halide and sell 90% halide. Why haven't they moved to led ?
what ever it's doing it seems to be up to some voodooo cause I'm seeing colours and lots of encrusting. I just know on my tank the XM 10k 250 would demolish my Ai Prime in theory they are same par ? I'm in denial I visited my local hydro shop the other week and well...... some should break the news to them that led lights have been invented, cause they use nothing but halide and sell 90% halide. Why haven't they moved to led ?
dz6t
New member
No, your AI prime does not put out the same par as your halide in a large tank. The coverage of prime is small. Also you can see in the paper they used led strips populated with hundreds of low power led chips. They are more efficient than high power led chips used in many current fixtures. They can be twice as efficient sometimes.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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