Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[heritage]

Not sure why this debate is still going. It is becoming very clear that T5, MH and LED can grow and display corals well if you have done your homework and chosen well.

Spend 3 min on Google and and you will find all the evidence you can ever want.


Pros

Led saves on your electricity bill....but unless you were running a chiller with your MH the savings are pretty small. It is between a buck or two a month for me on my 100g system.

They are small and easy to run and operate.

You do not need to change bulbs.

The temperature of your tank will, most often, be a little more stable if you did not use a chiller with your MH.

Cons

There are a lot of bad units out there.




Most of the pros are things that corals could not care less about and the only con I can think of is something that could kill your corals. If you are not prepared/willing/able to do your research stick with MH/T5, if you are prepared/willing/able to do your research go led. Not because it is better but because it is the same....and just so convenient.

I noticed that you didn't list an led fixture that you think is good.
What makes you think people didn't do there homework ?
I waited quite a while before I decided to purchase my leds, and at the time I bought them there were no reviews.
I still have not seen a post or review about any led fixture that dosen't have the same problems being discussed here. At least one that's been run for more then just a few months.

 

[MedRed]

funny how one sided this argument is here, when truly in most of the cases above you are not even comparing the best LED has to offer. I will simply say (without becoming involved in a debate) I very much disagree with Halides being "better hands down". here's why;

Halides cost more to operate ie energy, bulb replacement. Heck, you probably need to replace the ballasts before leds...

They do cost more. I'd rather pay more for the results they bring. It's a trade off.

Halides are not as customizable- honestly, nothing can beat LEDS here as each color is singled out

False. There are many MH bulbs available as well as a crazy array of T5 bulbs. Customizing MH isn't as easy as LED, but the light itself looks far better to the eye without even addressing how the light actually makes the corals look.

LEDs have more pop- Again, no comparison here. If you run the right LEDS a halide can't "pop" the corals quite the same way. Doesn't mean Halides don,t grow coral- they certainly do

Absolutely false. The ONLY pop LEDs are capable of producing are when certain color corals (like neon green and orange) are under Royal Blue only lighting. That immediately goes away when the spectrum is more naturalized. Actinic T5's create that same pop and halides are FAR better at making all colors of coral pop under more natural lighting than LEDs. Not to mention that a lot of corals under LED lose some of their color variety over time. There's no contest.

Heat- Halides give off a ton more of this. I understand it doesn't bother anyone and might even help some. Still, it is a disadvantage when comparing the LEDS

A definite downside of MH. When I had my LEDs (Radeons or AI's), my tank never got above 79 or so. When I added my Giesemann (250 MH + 4 T5) I had to run my home AC at a lower temp, but still didn't need a chiller. Now that my tank is under 550w of MH I absolutely need a chiller. Luckily I found used one for a good price on craigslist. My electricity bill is down month to month compared to last year. Even if it wasn't, I'd still rather pay more for better results

Growth/color- there are far too many tanks out there that are best in class running LEDS- most of these guys having switched over from halides. Why is this working for them but not you? Hmm, maybe it isn;t the lighting's fault and/or you don;t have the right spectrum. having a "diy" doesn;t mean you have the right leds or led mixes. To take advantage of LEDs you also have to blend the colors and this takes thought- unfortunately not everyone is doing this.

I still have yet to see a best in class LED tank. There are nice, healthy ones for sure, but I haven't seen one that looks as good as how an equitable MH or T5 tank looks. The closest was a really nice Zeovit tank that still didn't stand up to the equitable MH zeovit tanks.

Bottom line is that LEDs are here to stay. The number of available MH fixtures are shrinking and there will be no innovation in MH bulbs. Everyone and their mother are making LED fixtures these days. Choosing between the two technologies is nothing more than a cost/benefit analysis. Some will be willing to pay less for decent to good results. I'm willing to pay more for the best results.

 

[nynick]

I noticed that you didn't list an led fixture that you think is good.
What makes you think people didn't do there homework ?
I waited quite a while before I decided to purchase my leds, and at the time I bought them there were no reviews.
I still have not seen a post or review about any led fixture that dosen't have the same problems being discussed here. At least one that's been run for more then just a few months.

1. You are right, I didn't. Mainly because my point of reference is my own custom unit.

2. I never said that.

3. So you didn't do your research. Please note that I am not putting any value on this...some people just don't have the time or ability.

4. Mine has been run for a well over a year and so has many others. Just google it.


Frankly, if you have never seen a post about someone happy with their LED lights this must be your first visit to RC for several years.

 

[Aqualund]

I'm definitely having some issue's with coloring and growth. Red or yellow acan's seem to turn a funky looking brown or orange.
Some acropora look great from the top down but lose a lot of color on the sides and base of the coral that the light is not reaching. Some acros seem to.grow well while others seemed to grow well for a time then just stopped.

I have an old t5ho fixture that I'm thinking of switching back to, just to see how the coral react. I'm pretty sure it will be positive, if so I will try and switch to using a t5 supplement.

Guarantee you don't have a full spectrum led fixture, mostly because I know that all available prebuilt led fixtures out there do not have a complete spectrum comparable to MH. Therefore, LEDS arent your problem, YOU'RE led fixture is the problem.

Supplement your current fixture with those missing wavelengths and you'll be just fine.

 

[heritage]

1. You are right, I didn't. Mainly because my point of reference is my own custom unit.

2. I never said that.

3. So you didn't do your research. Please note that I am not putting any value on this...some people just don't have the time or ability.

4. Mine has been run for a well over a year and so has many others. Just google it.


Frankly, if you have never seen a post about someone happy with their LED lights this must be your first visit to RC for several years.

You infered that people didn't do there homework if they chose a bad fixture. It is possible they choose it based on reviews given by people who didn't give enough time to see what happens. This also really depends on the coral, my lps love the leds as do some of my sps. But others just seemed to slow or almost stop. Coloring on the sides and base are pale, the part of the coral.that face the light look awesome !

Aqualund,
What exactly is a full spectrum unit ?
A Google search will come up with many full spectrum units. Sold just about everywhere.
Would you consider this to be full spectrum ?

http://www.acanlighting.com/index.p...ategory_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

 

[gb530]

Where did you hear that?

It was late when I wrote that post so maybe its not that standard. Personally, if I had MH's I would need a chiller on the same amount of time the lights are on from June-August.

 

[gb530]

The poster says he doesn't need to run a chiller. And even if you do, it's not on 24/7. More like a couple hours per day.
I live in central CA, and it gets up to around 85* here, but when I ran a 250w MH over a 44g pentagon, I only needed two fans to keep it under 84*.

I live in Northern cali and it get's into the hundreds here, up to 110 degrees. I also don't like keeping my tank on the brink of 83/84. I try to keep it perfectly stable at 78 degrees.

 

[Aqualund]

You infered that people didn't do there homework if they chose a bad fixture. It is possible they choose it based on reviews given by people who didn't give enough time to see what happens. This also really depends on the coral, my lps love the leds as do some of my sps. But others just seemed to slow or almost stop. Coloring on the sides and base are pale, the part of the coral.that face the light look awesome !

Aqualund,
What exactly is a full spectrum unit ?
A Google search will come up with many full spectrum units. Sold just about everywhere.
Would you consider this to be full spectrum ?

http://www.acanlighting.com/index.p...ategory_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

No I wouldn't. They are close, but again, they dont specify the wavelength, they just list the common name of the color.

It's kind of a big deal when you have exact spectrums of light which chlorophyll a and b absorb light the best, and the leds miss that spectrum by 20nm or more...thats a big loss in energy conversion.

Addtionally this unit has no mention of violet or near UV leds which you need 417nm and 430 nm... not "magenta."

And on top of that, can you individually control each different color of light?

Overall, yeah this light is pretty close...but because of completely missing the bar on the specific needs of the organism...well then it's pretty much useless.

 

[Aqualund]

I live in Northern cali and it get's into the hundreds here, up to 110 degrees. I also don't like keeping my tank on the brink of 83/84. I try to keep it perfectly stable at 78 degrees.

LOL yeah i read somewhere here that people are fine with their sps tanks at 84...thats madness!

 

[nynick]

You infered that people didn't do there homework if they chose a bad fixture. It is possible they choose it based on reviews given by people who didn't give enough time to see what happens. This also really depends on the coral, my lps love the leds as do some of my sps. But others just seemed to slow or almost stop. Coloring on the sides and base are pale, the part of the coral.that face the light look awesome !

Aqualund,
What exactly is a full spectrum unit ?
A Google search will come up with many full spectrum units. Sold just about everywhere.
Would you consider this to be full spectrum ?

http://www.acanlighting.com/index.p...ategory_id=17&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=27

I didn't infer it, I said it outright...but not in the way you suggested in your first reply. I simply ment that some people bought bad units because they didn't do their homework. Again, I am putting no values on this as we have all been guilty of getting some shiny piece of bling that turned out to be nothing but a turd in the end.

There is very little info on the unit you linked btw, hard to tell a lot about it.

 

[heritage]

No I wouldn't. They are close, but again, they dont specify the wavelength, they just list the common name of the color.

It's kind of a big deal when you have exact spectrums of light which chlorophyll a and b absorb light the best, and the leds miss that spectrum by 20nm or more...thats a big loss in energy conversion.

Addtionally this unit has no mention of violet or near UV leds which you need 417nm and 430 nm... not "magenta."

And on top of that, can you individually control each different color of light?

Overall, yeah this light is pretty close...but because of completely missing the bar on the specific needs of the organism...well then it's pretty much useless.

Violet is a blue/purple
Magenta is purple
The fixture has blue/royal blue
So were just assuming that it's not hitting in that range. And were also assuming that a particular coral needs that specific range.
As for controlling individual lights, no. It's a a three channel set up.
One for moon lights
One for the blues and I think magenta.
The rest on the other. But I don't think that really makes a difference.

I didn't infer it, I said it outright...but not in the way you suggested in your first reply. I simply ment that some people bought bad units because they didn't do their homework. Again, I am putting no values on this as we have all been guilty of getting some shiny piece of bling that turned out to be nothing but a turd in the end.

There is very little info on the unit you linked btw, hard to tell a lot about it.

Either way, if I took it out of context then I apologize.
But yes, I have bought turds before and I'm still hoping that something changes. But I'm really starting to.doubt it.
Definitely not much info on these units and I'm not sure anyone did, other then sanjay, but they were on different units.

So you have no problems with coloring on the sides or base of any sps ?

 

[Aqualund]

Violet is a blue/purple
Magenta is purple

If i google magenta and purple, they look different. Am I color blind? And with varying degrees of magenta, there is no guarantee that magenta in this fixture is either 417nm, 430nm, or 442nm...which are required.

The fixture has blue/royal blue
So were just assuming that it's not hitting in that range.

No, blue/royal blue is not purple or magenta, and I know that blue and royal blue are 450nm or above.

And were also assuming that a particular coral needs that specific range.

This is not an assumption. This is a scientific fact. As Zooxanthellae contain various photosynthetic pigments, including chlorophyll A, chlorophyll C2. As you can read in this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/aafeature

of which you can read the research references at the bottom of the page.

Additonally you can read about the varying requirements of virtually every coral in the hobby at these pages:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature1

in which they list nearly every required spectrum for nearly every coral in the hobby, and the cite references to the studies that were used to determine the information. And these studies are not new, they are years old.

The rest on the other. But I don't think that really makes a difference.

You don't think that, because you don't know, and you are wrong.

Research.


And yes I have my own custom unit and I have none of the problems people are lamenting about with regards to leds. As has been my point for about 200 replies now.

 

[sirreal63]

It was late when I wrote that post so maybe its not that standard. Personally, if I had MH's I would need a chiller on the same amount of time the lights are on from June-August.

I live in Northern cali and it get's into the hundreds here, up to 110 degrees. I also don't like keeping my tank on the brink of 83/84. I try to keep it perfectly stable at 78 degrees.

We are in the high 90's for 4-5 months and spend pretty much all of July and August with highs over 100 here. We keep the house at 76 in the summer and not only do I not need a chiller I don't even have a fan on the tank, and I keep the heater set to 77 to keep the tank from getting any cooler than that. The reality is if you manage the heat that is produced and use efficient pumps it is unlikely that you would need a chiller. Keeping the tank at a certain temp is a bad idea and is completely unnatural and can actually be the cause of issues with corals. There are so many myths being perpetuated in this hobby that it is just sad. 500 watts of LED produces the same heat as 500 watts of MH or T5 or anything else.

LOL yeah i read somewhere here that people are fine with their sps tanks at 84...thats madness!

Do you realize that most corals come from area where the water is significantly higher than that, and the temp fluctuates a lot during the day? Surprisingly it is actual science that discovered what the actual temp ranges are for reefs around the world. I enjoy science too, here is a series of articles that will help, and may with any luck show you something useful.

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...eat-temperature-debate-part-1-chris-jury.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/82353-great-temperature-debate-part-ii.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/93637-great-temperature-debate-part-iii.html

http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/100587-great-temperature-debate-part-iv.html

If you would like more information, do an advanced search on user greenbean36191 and use temp as the keyword, he has also spent years studying this. Temp swings are very natural and corals have lived with them and there is also some evidence that some creatures rely on them. What we do in trying to keep a steady temp is very unnatural and in some cases can be detrimental.

 

[Aqualund]

You're right, I bet the users which described keeping their tanks at 84 degrees or higher with no regard for chilling or issues like that were well aware of the locality of where their corals were harvested and therefore matched those conditions exactly...which is why they had such high temperatures...right? *sarcasm*

Personally, however I do try to mimic the temperature fluctuations of the acroporas in my tank, which means I cycle from 76 to about 81 over the course of a year, and as everyone knows that fluctuates in about a degree in either direction from day to day depending on the conditions. No one is in disagreement on that.

but

500 watts of LED produces the same heat as 500 watts of MH or T5 or anything else.

You are wrong. The reason why leds are more efficient is because their energy output is focused mostly with the light they emit. Yes they do emit heat, but nowhere near the heat dissipated and wasted by MH, as MH has just as much heat emission as light emission.

and please, since Ive read these articles...please enlighten me as to which cases a steady temperature is detrimental? because it seemed to me that was a matter of interpretation within these articles. Not actual proven fact. However, in reverse they had many correlations with high temps and low temps causing die offs for certain...

 

[James77]

You are wrong. The reason why leds are more efficient is because their energy output is focused mostly with the light they emit. Yes they do emit heat, but nowhere near the heat dissipated and wasted by MH, as MH has just as much heat emission as light emission.

Watt for watt, all lighting will put out the same amount of heat. It has to.

But, less watts are usually needed since more light is given per watt of LED. But that light will still turn into heat.

 

[Aqualund]

. We keep the house at 76 in the summer and not only do I not need a chiller I don't even have a fan on the tank, and I keep the heater set to 77 to keep the tank from getting any cooler than that.

The actual reality here can be explained with Newton's law of cooling, in which your air conditioner is doing most of the work to cool your tank. Actually, nothing beats a good air conditioner for tank cooling.

Your room is definitely warming from the heat dissipation of the tank, and the source of the heat in it is the MH and the heater and the pump. You are lucky in the fact that your air conditioner can overcome that. But you are wasting energy for sure. Probably on a scale you dont even realize.

 

[Aqualund]

Watt for watt, all lighting will put out the same amount of heat. It has to.

But, less watts are usually needed since more light is given per watt of LED. But that light will still turn into heat.

What do you mean by this? Heat is infared light. If you look at the output spectrums of mh vs leds, you can see a large portion of mh is in the IR spectrum.

Like are you implying that by interaction with the water the light emitted by the led is exciting the particles and therefore heating them? Okay well thats fine, but MH do this exact same thing, in addition to heating the power supply and emitting immense heat around the bulb and fixture...this is completely different.

MH waste energy through heat...that is the fundamental reason LEDS are so attractive as an alternative to MH.

Watt for watt, all lighting will put out the same amount of heat. It has to.

Really, I mean explain this, scientifically.

here's a quick google search.

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/html/watts-heat-lights-lamp-heat-output.html

by your reasoning none of those same watt lights should have different effects on their environment...weird huh?

 

[James77]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Energy cannot be destroyed, only converted. So take the 500 watts of LEDs and the 500 watts of halides....one will put off more light. What happens to that light energy? It will turn to heat. Same with pumps. A 100 watt pump will put the same heat out as a 100 watt heater. People think that because it converts some energy into water movement that it does not, but that also goes back to heat.

Yes, we all know that halides are HOT. You can achieve the same light levels that it makes with less watts of LEDs. That is the only reason LEDs are cooler. While halides also impart heat to the water with infrared, the LEDs will still heat the room.

 

[sirreal63]

and please, since Ive read these articles...please enlighten me as to which cases a steady temperature is detrimental? because it seemed to me that was a matter of interpretation within these articles. Not actual proven fact. However, in reverse they had many correlations with high temps and low temps causing die offs for certain...

Do an advanced search on user greenbean36191 and use temp as the keyword, he has also spent years studying this. I doubt that you will do this though, you clearly have it all figured out and are not interested in learning anything that may be in contrast with what you currently don't understand.

The actual reality here can be explained with Newton's law of cooling, in which your air conditioner is doing most of the work to cool your tank. Actually, nothing beats a good air conditioner for tank cooling.

Your room is definitely warming from the heat dissipation of the tank, and the source of the heat in it is the MH and the heater and the pump. You are lucky in the fact that your air conditioner can overcome that. But you are wasting energy for sure. Probably on a scale you dont even realize.

It is called heat management, heat will be produced, you cannot prevent that, whatever wattage draw your aquarium has is the amount of heat that will be produced. Where you allow the heat to go makes a difference, if you trap it near the water, either under the tank or above the tank with a canopy it will have a much greater impact on the water. The key is to remove the heat from the tank, heat rises so use that to your advantage. Of course the AC does the cooling but the difference in our electrical bill from when the tank was not here to when the tank was put up is negligible. We get an electrical bill and look at it, I suppose you do the same? There is a direct correlation between the wattage consumed and the rise in the electrical bill. Can you see the truth in that?

I have a feeling no one will be able to show you anything, your mind is closed, and your head is in the sand.

 

[nynick]

Either way, if I took it out of context then I apologize.
But yes, I have bought turds before and I'm still hoping that something changes. But I'm really starting to.doubt it.
Definitely not much info on these units and I'm not sure anyone did, other then sanjay, but they were on different units.

So you have no problems with coloring on the sides or base of any sps ?

No apology needed, I am admittedly a little AR when it comes to being quoted in ways that I do not feel are 110% correct.

I don't think my tank is a very good measure for sps. I have a mixed reef with a few sps but they were never really a focus of mine. I am far more interested in softies. Having said that the once I have are doing great. I even had a "dead" sps that I got as a base for a frag sprout to life after more than 6 months....wish I knew what it was but I don't. Very bright neon pink...something... I have a custom version of the cheap Chinese ones btw and being a not very technical person I copied the ratio of a guy in the "Cheap Chinese LED" thread here on RC. Besides losing a couple of Shrooms at the start due to what I guess was photo shock I could not be happier.

I totally agree with the lack of info, makes it seem like some of the producers are less than proud of what they are selling. Others like for example Marinelands Reefready fixture are totally upfront with how bad their stuff is and from what I heard it is still the top selling led unit in North America. The funny thing is that it isn't even all that cheap and you could get a decent one for less (I did). The whole reef led market is just a mess where you have too sift through piles of rubbish to find something good.