Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Aqualund]

Yes, we all know that halides are HOT. You can achieve the same light levels that it makes with less watts of LEDs. That is the only reason LEDs are cooler. While halides also impart heat to the water with infrared, the LEDs will still heat the room.

LOL okay now I see what you mean...which is very misleading indeed.

Of course you could use 500 leds to one MH and MAYBEyou might have a similar impact of the room in terms of heat, but that's so far removed from the point that MH's waste a majority of their energy through heat before light that its not even worth mentioning.

 

[Aqualund]

There is a direct correlation between the wattage consumed and the rise in the electrical bill.

This has been my point all along. Thank you for agreeing with me.

I have a feeling no one will be able to show you anything, your mind is closed, and your head is in the sand.

Yes I am when it comes to unsubstantiated claims, interpretations, and oversights in general.

I read as much as I could with greenbean36191's posts and Im glad he's advancing the hobby in that regard. That is good information that needs to be out there. But in my defense, it by no means implies that we should all bump our tanks up between 87 and 80 every hour on the hour and expect positive results in our reefs.

But if you're using the argument that you can do this, as a reason not to worry about the heat from Halides, well I was more concerned about the waste of energy caused from the heat of MH, not the temperature ranges.

To get you back on point, the fact that you need to run a chiller or air conditioner(at a lower temp) for you to achieve your desired temperatures in your tanks, means you are using more electricity to do so, and that costs more money.


If you're fine with that added expense that's your prerogative.

 

[sirreal63]

and please, since Ive read these articles...please enlighten me as to which cases a steady temperature is detrimental? because it seemed to me that was a matter of interpretation within these articles.

Sorry I forgot to answer this. Corals begin to stress with as little as 2 degrees out of their normal acclimated range. People get in trouble with their tanks when something happens that changes the conditions the corals are acclimated to. Allowing a normal daily fluctuation of temps is like an insurance policy, the corals are adapted to it, (it is natural for them) and because they have that ability to handle a variation they are more able to handle when things go beyond their normal range. Corals that have a constant temp have been acclimated to that temp and are not as able to handle those times when something does happen to increase or decrease temps that they are not acclimated to.

It is detrimental if the corals are acclimated to a set temp and something like a power failure, heater failure or chiller failure causes the temp to change, the corals are not acclimated to a change so they stress, and because they have no adaptations to a swing in temp it has a higher probability of death. Here is another little snippet from CJ, I doubt you will think much about it, but hope you do.

The very short version is that most (i.e., not all, only most) coral reefs have historically experienced temperatures in the neighborhood of ~78-84 F and have spent relatively little time outside this range. Some reefs are hotter than typical and regularly spend time in the 84-87 F range (and even higher in the Persian gulf) and some reefs are cooler and regularly drop down to the upper 60's, or even lower. However, the extremes are poorly tolerated by most corals. Corals from all reefs can thrive at temperatures in the neighborhood of 77-82 F, and most are flexible enough that they can tolerate a few degrees higher or lower for a bit. You can see much more detailed discussion in the series.

Back to the original question: if it were my tank, I'd use a fan on it as suggested. I think a temp of 83 F is fine and pretty much all our critters will thrive at that temperature, but I wouldn't want to intentially let it get much higher. Some corals will tolerate many degrees warmer without problems, whereas those form cooler reefs won't. Putting a fan on should allow better temperature control.

As a side note, greenbean is hecka smart and has given oodles of great advice; I'm a Ph.D. candidate in oceanography here at UH, working on coral eco-physiology; I live about 3/4 of a mile from the nearest reef and work adjacent to one; the temperature there averaged about 82 F today, which is a degree or two F lower than normal for this time of year (and 6-8 F warmer than is normal for 6 months from now, but then our reefs are on the cool side here in HI).

cj

 

[nynick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Energy cannot be destroyed, only converted. So take the 500 watts of LEDs and the 500 watts of halides....one will put off more light. What happens to that light energy? It will turn to heat. Same with pumps. A 100 watt pump will put the same heat out as a 100 watt heater. People think that because it converts some energy into water movement that it does not, but that also goes back to heat.

Yes, we all know that halides are HOT. You can achieve the same light levels that it makes with less watts of LEDs. That is the only reason LEDs are cooler. While halides also impart heat to the water with infrared, the LEDs will still heat the room.

Sry but this is not correct. For all practical purposes energy can take one of 3 routes, light, heat or motion. It does not have to produce the same amount of either of the 3 simply because it uses the same amount of energy.

LED does produce slightly less heat than MH but, as you already pointed out, the main difference is that it does not project the heat into the water.

 

[sirreal63]

To get you back on point, the fact that you need to run a chiller or air conditioner(at a lower temp) for you to achieve your desired temperatures in your tanks, means you are using more electricity to do so, and that costs more money.


If you're fine with that added expense that's your prerogative.

That is the temp the AC is always set on, and as noted the tank had minimal impact on the electrical bill. The point is in the setup of the tank and how much heat you create and how much you manage. It doesn't matter what the light source is, what matters is how much total wattage you are putting into the tank and how well you manage it. Low wattage devices mean lower amounts of heat imparted to the tank. This is why I can use MH and VHO and not need a fan or a chiller. It is not automatic that you will have to have a chiller if you have MH, the fact is if you need a chiller you need to look at how you have the tank set up. There are people with LED's who still run a chiller. Watts are heat, the less wattage the less heat, it is that simple.

 

[sirreal63]

For all practical purposes energy can take one of 3 routes, light, heat or motion. It does not have to produce the same amount of either of the 3 simply because it uses the same amount of energy.

Light is heat, have we learned how to produce cold light yet?
Heat is obviously heat.
Motion causes friction, friction causes heat.

 

[Aqualund]

The point is in the setup of the tank and how much heat you create and how much you manage.

Yes, and to this end, every piece of equipment should be preforming its designated function as much as possible to ensure less energy is wasted than necessary.

Thank you for agreeing with me again.

 

[Allentown]

The issue with photography can easily be corrected if people only knew how to set their ISO and white balance options and the keep the glare from the fixtures out of frame. MH may be easier to photograph but LEDs can be done if you mess with the settings.

Their is no magical trickery with LEDs tricking people's eyes as was previously suggested. Just people not knowing how to set up their cameras for the different light sources.

 

[sirreal63]

It is important that people realize that it isn't just their lights that create heat, it is far more typical for high wattage pumps and enclosed areas to create and hold heat. I was once one of those people, I dropped my tank temps by about 3 degrees just by getting rid of high wattage pumps. I do have a chiller, it has been offline since somewhere around 2006.

Those of us who have been here a while have seen way too many tanks taken out by chiller, heater and electrical failures. Allowing a normal fluctuation is a good thing, if more people would ignore the books written in the 90's with horrible information and investigate what actually happens on a reef it would make the hobby a lot easier. The reefs are far from a calm, never changing environment, they are a brutal constantly changing environment, and they have evolved to that environment.

 

[nynick]

Light is heat, have we learned how to produce cold light yet?
Heat is obviously heat.
Motion causes friction, friction causes heat.

....but not always in the same amounts and this is what I objected to.

 

[heritage]

just so everyone can see what I'm talking about. I don't think this has anything to do with the nanometer range. but more to do with light spread.

top down

side and under

 

[sirreal63]

FWIW I am much in favor of LED tech growing. Unfortunately just about every year since PFO released the Solaris people have been told that it is now figured out and the current lights are the way to go and you can hang up your MH and T5. It also seems that the very next year another improved and "finally figured out" LED fixture is released. Meanwhile I am still using the MH components I bought many many years ago, that have not failed and have not needed to be replaced. When I believe that any LED fixture can truly replace my MH I will gladly switch.

 

[Aqualund]

just so everyone can see what I'm talking about. I don't think this has anything to do with the nanometer range. but more to do with light spread.

You dont think it does because you have no scientific basis for your claim.

Those corals are bleached and unhealthy. Probably not getting food, the light is too bright, and not enough variety in PROPER spectrum.

 

[Aqualund]

FWIW I am much in favor of LED tech growing. Unfortunately just about every year since PFO released the Solaris people have been told that it is now figured out and the current lights are the way to go and you can hang up your MH and T5. It also seems that the very next year another improved and "finally figured out" LED fixture is released. Meanwhile I am still using the MH components I bought many many years ago, that have not failed and have not needed to be replaced. When I believe that any LED fixture can truly replace my MH I will gladly switch.

Well said.

 

[asid61]

FWIW I am much in favor of LED tech growing. Unfortunately just about every year since PFO released the Solaris people have been told that it is now figured out and the current lights are the way to go and you can hang up your MH and T5. It also seems that the very next year another improved and "finally figured out" LED fixture is released. Meanwhile I am still using the MH components I bought many many years ago, that have not failed and have not needed to be replaced. When I believe that any LED fixture can truly replace my MH I will gladly switch.

There's a flaw here. If you argue your MH you bought years ago still works today, well, so do many led fixtures bought years ago. The difference is that leds get better every year, but you never see MH improving significantly.
It's like computers. Old ones work, but newer ones are better, and they improve every year. That doesn't mean you should never buy a computer.

 

[heritage]

You dont think it does because you have no scientific basis for your claim.

Those corals are bleached and unhealthy. Probably not getting food, the light is too bright, and not enough variety in PROPER spectrum.

How do you figure that ?
The coral is not bleached nor is it unhealthy. You can see that the coral is growing, that's a good 1 inch of new growth on the tips within the past month.

As already stated you are closed minded and think you are right. No amount of discussion will change it.

 

[asid61]

How do you figure that ?
The coral is not bleached nor is it unhealthy. You can see that the coral is growing, that's a good 1 inch of new growth on the tips within the past month.

As already stated you are closed minded and think you are right. No amount of discussion will change it.

Aqualund has a pretty good basis for his statements. There is a thread here that details how different spectra effect the coloration and growth of corals. If you google it you should get some hits.
On the other hand, what you state is only based off of personal experience with no controlled variables.

 

[Aqualund]

If you are saying the second picture is the same coral as the one in the first picture, then yes, the coral is unhealthy, bleached and not doing well, in fact, i believe the second picture is a sign of RTN and that portion of coral is dead.

But i am inclined to think these are different corals.

I imagine you are unclear of what a healthy specimen should look like if this is debatable to you.

Additionally, I honestly dont believe you had 1inch of growth in a month.

 

[nynick]

There's a flaw here. If you argue your MH you bought years ago still works today, well, so do many led fixtures bought years ago. The difference is that leds get better every year, but you never MH improving significantly.
It's like computers. Old ones work, but newer ones are better, and they improve every year. That doesn't mean you should never buy a computer.

The computers do get better. Good LED and MH produce roughly the same end product. The main thing that talks for LED has nothing to do with the light they produce but rather all the little extras. A better comparison might be to buy a new computer because it is half the size while having about the same operating capacity. I did do this but I can see why many people would rather wait...nothing is wrong with MH after all, they are great!

 

[heritage]

If you are saying the second picture is the same coral as the one in the first picture, then yes, the coral is unhealthy, bleached and not doing well, in fact, i believe the second picture is a sign of RTN and that portion of coral is dead.

But i am inclined to think these are different corals.

I imagine you are unclear of what a healthy specimen should look like if this is debatable to you.

Additionally, I honestly dont believe you had 1inch of growth in a month.

Yes, that is the same exact coral. And yes it was about an inch of growth. I just took those pictures. The coral has all of it's flesh and if I were to reposition the coral so that the area's with no color were exposed to more of the lighting it would surely color up. Green