Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Reefvet]

Both fine cars that run neck to neck around the track and get you the same end results just in different style and at different price points.

On the other hand, different lighting technologies produce different results, some similar some not so similar.
Depends what results you are looking for.

Exactly my point with the car analogy.

 

[FastUno]

a good friend has purchased almost a dozen fixtures

How is your friend making out with his Pac Sun fixtures & what are his results?

Your tank is nice, but honestly again it is very typical of a LED tank. Less than 100% saturation of colors, slightly dull colors, and growth patterns that are not natural looking. I want my reef to look like a reef when it grows in. I don't want a reef that looks like a bunch of overgrown frag plugs with some oddly shaped coral trying to sprout out from the base. I apologize for the harshness of the comment, but really? Here is an example of the kind of growth and color I expect of my corals . . . (from my tank under Radiums) Notice how your Bird's Nests look and notice the growth form of mine.

Hey no offense taken. We are here to trade info & to learn from each other. Just so you know where I am at. I had a reef years ago & mostly softies LPS with a few SPS (monti cap, monti dig, green slimer & that is it). So now I am happy just to have in my possession these frags & be able to keep them alive. I am in the mountains (upstate NY) & had to spend time & money to drive out to get these frags from various reefers.

My tank will now be almost 7 months & I only have limited experience with SPS's. My frags are just that, frags growing and that were introduced along the way (so frags here less than 7 mo). I don't think we can expect frags to be basketball size in just a few months? I actually did have a little mishap by stupidly introducing a local reefers used reef rock into my tank (never again). It caused issues with 3 of my biggest & fastest growing corals and caused me to frag them.

The pictures you have shown are fully grown corals. At those sizes they would cost $200-300 would you say? I could have bought them at that size & risked my lack of experience or I could buy these small frags & introduce more as my experience dictates so. If all these frags grew to that size, I would need 2-3 separate tanks. What you are showing me is 10 years of growth or 3 years of growth on the sample tank. It seems ridiculous to compare that to my almost 7 month tank, and even less time with corals in there & only with 2+ weeks of LED's.

What I was showing is that the corals are still alive, there is no flesh peeling off & no bleaching. The tank does not look horrific and deathly.

Now that we are past the frag point, lets move on.

No disrespect either, but lets try to teach a 10+ year veteran something.

CORAL COLOR:
1) Take a look at this tank video & tell me if the LED lights look "purple?" They are the same fixtures, same LED layout, & the same height as above the water line. This is my 29g tank (first tank for my son) that I used to gauge my switch to these LED's on my 75g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmZXUod2j3I
No, it does not & do you know why? Because the sand is lightly colored & it reflects the LED lights back. There is not nearly as much purple corraline on this tank as there is on my 75g tank. There is no lightly colored sand or any sand on the 75g, in fact the bare bottom is BLACK NEOPRENE & absorbs much of the light. The "purple" of some of these tanks that you see is the result of the corraline capturing the light & reflecting back purple back to your eyes.
Take a look at the pink birdsnest in there, because they came from my 75g tank where they lacked color. Where other corals had color in that same tank, the pink birdsnest was not as vibrant. Look at the purple polyps in the last video. I had striations of color on the volley ball birdsnest on my MH/T5's because of the size. Ones closest to the MH were getting pale & lighter, the ones in the middle were just OK & the ones blocked by the light were pale/bleaching.

2) The only complaint I have about my LED's is that it is sooooo difficult to capture what you see with a picture & video in my "purple corraline"reflected tank. So what looks dull in a picture or purple may not always be. I simply cannot capture the true beauty of my tank & some of the corals due to the purple reflection.
Take a look at the sunset monti. It does not look as dull as my original pic, but still looks dull. It looks perfectly healthy when looking at it with my own eyes, very vibrant, healthy & colorful. There is no hint of anything but colorful & healthy, but it does not translate perfectly on film though.

This hammer looks dull from a further shot, but you can see some of the colors up close & yet this still does not reveal the true beauty.

This is the most neon green candycane I have seen in my life, again not a good translation

I have seen your tank & TOTM, but quite honestly the shots you posted don't have a whole lot of color either. The birdsnest looks dull & has various lightly colored spots. The remainder of the corals look dark, dull & not as brightly/vibrantly colored. Can we blame that on film capture too? I am sure we can. The monti cap looks drab & not something I would place in my tank even if it were a free frag. Aside from the birdsnest, yes they look healthy (alive) & big though.


3) I will also admit that some corals could use some coloring up, while others you cannot possibly squeeze more color out of them, it is that I just can't get it on film.
For instance the green digi, but that is not a fault of the LED's, in fact it can be blamed on the LACK OF light from my MH/T5's. Now that they are in the LED's they are becoming greener actually. This is only the 17th day of the LED's on my 75g. Take a look at the brown dig when I first got it (right side background). It looks brown, but now is getting purple under my LED's (from my prev photo posts).

Lets make a thread on how worst the 250W MH are vs the 400W MH? It looks like the brown dig was suffering from a lack of strong light while many of the other corals were doing great.

4) While some of my corals grew in 17 days (mostly the birdnest), most of them did not. Especially the monti's. Not enough growth for you to see twists & turns though (a few mm at best), so what you see is the result from my MH/T5's. Thanks for helping me disprove your very point though. The oddly shapes you refer to are from us reefers CONSTANTLY moving corals around & repositioning them. I have such twists & turns on some of mine because the amount of times I have moved or shifted them is criminal (especially my monti dig rock)!!!!! I am sure the same goes with other reefers, especially those that are overstocked.
Think about it. If everyone is scaring each other with LED bleached corals, you would expect people to SLOWLY acclimate their corals & move them to various spots. You will then see more of this twisting effect on LED tanks, but you can also see them on MH/T5's, as I serve as a perfect example of that, you said it yourself without really knowing it.





I have seen great looking MH tanks & if money was not an issue I probably would not think twice about MH lights. Why? Because then I would buy 2x redundant chillers & have them plumbed outside. If there was a fire & my family was involved, I could not live with myself because then my greediness and self satisfaction would have put them at risk. I would also have a dedicated back tank room with temp & humidity controlls.

I have spents thousands already throughtout the years & I am not spending anymore. I spent $1300 on my Acquatinics MH/T5 fixture & between two tanks only got to use them for 2 years. I love them, but the company is no longer around either & I vowed never to invest in excess when similar can be had for less. Right now I could not even sell them for $200 if I wanted to.

 

[d2mini]

FastUno, me thinks you missed some of Joe's points. Not to speak for him, but I believe he's talking about growth patters and colors, not size.

My tank has been led only from the start, 1.5 years now, and I can recognize the differences from my last tank which was mh/t5. Its just not the same, in several ways.
Some good, some not so good. My frogspawn and hammers look insane and grow like gangbusters. Sps are.... well joe said it all.

I have seen great looking MH tanks & if money was not an issue I probably would not think twice about MH lights.

Nuff said.

Because in the end, this is what it comes down to for many people.
Then some realize that any savings in energy or bulb costs is not worth the "costs" that Joe speaks to.

 

[FastUno]

I mention both color & growth patterns in my long post, so I have not missed anything. If anything Joe should now realize that growth patterns can also be issues in MH/T5 lit systems, where the corals are being moved around a lot.


You can't blame my growth patterns on LED's that have been on the tank for only 17 days. Most of the growth were under MH/T5's. So in essence he is finding fault with my MH/T5 lit tank & contradicting the very thing he is saying.


I understand what he is trying to say overall, but it does not fully apply to my 17 day lit tank. Other LED tanks that have been lit for months & where the corals have been left in place, yes then I understand. I don't have enough time & experience to truthfully judge that & I would have to take his word for it.

I will try to find some long term growth patterns in LED lit tanks.

 

[FastUno]

So are you finding any color issues or growth aberrations in this tank? It is a local reefers tank & it has been lit for MANY MONTHS with LED Kessils.

His tank is behind a wall & at first I could swear he was running MH/T5's. To my shock they were Kessils & I could not believe it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYdiaCil4w


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvbuSt-DqLI

 

[d2mini]

Well then don't post pics of a 17 day old tank or corals.

Here's my tank. 1.5 years under Radion Pros.
Anyone here is welcome to praise it or rip it apart.

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/Aquariums/200g-Reef-Aquarium/i-pwVHpQ6/O

 

[albano]

The guy next door to me has had Corvettes all the years I've been driving Porsches.
Fortunately he doesn't have a reef tank so he can't compare his to mine.

Are you worried that his screen name with be 'ReefPorsche' since 'ReefVet' is taken?

 

[rtparty]

Wait a second, is the odd growth pattern from the lighting (whether it be LED or MH/T5) or the fact that the corals are being moved all over? It's from one or the other but not both.

This thread tends to come full circle eventually. People with new systems come in and just rave that their tanks look amazing 2-3 weeks in. They can't believe they didn't switch sooner. That's all great but let me know when you've had them 18-24 months. There are only a couple posters in here that qualify. The loudest voices aren't even 6 months in though. It's just hard to take anything serious.

 

[Fredfish]

...

Now as to your tank . . .

Less than 100% saturation of colors, slightly dull colors, and growth patterns that are not natural looking. ...

Natural looking compared to what? In all the dives I did, I've not seen anything like the 'coloured stick' tanks that we see here. Don't get me wrong, those tanks are stunning (regardless of lighting technology used), but none of them are natural looking. The colours, in particular, are completely unatural, as in, not found on any reef anywhere under natural lighting conditions.

Recognize that there are advantages and disadvantages to all forms of lighting, understand what they are and pick the lighting that best meets your needs.

 

[FastUno]

d2mini, damn that tank is nice. What power setting/ratio you have the lights on?
I see many "natural" expanding and growing corasl. I could not tell whether you grew them under MH or LED's. Yes, the picture you took scream LED's because of the saturated colors. Shine those very corals with natural light & they will look more natural. Shine them with MH & they will look like corals under MH's. My corals look mostly brown when window light enters & no other light. What is said about natural light is true, we all know it.

So, the pics of the corals in your tank being successful under LED lights are actually grown under MH/T5 and you switched to LED 17 days ago????? Well, then you really have nothing to backup your idea that LED grows corals great or am I wrong? What can you measure in 17 days!!! LOL

You are absolutely right & that is why I CLEARLY stated that. I expected a few corals to bleach & not make it & they look just fine overall. My secret is that I have a 11 week old LED lit tank also & all the corals are doing fine & growing. Frags were taken from my 75g into this experimental tank, so I have a little bit more weight under my belt, actually more so than Joe.

Joe who has an issue with his Pacific Sun combo fixtures has had the fixture on for only 1 month or so. So I gather you need to tell him something too?

Neither of us have done any long term testing. He is experiencing issues rather quickly, whilst my corals are doing better overall. If I have any issues down the road & if they are too many, I will come here report it & may even chuck the LED's for my old MH/T5's.

What Joe & the rest of you are failing to realize is that it is easier to change lights when you have smaller corals & frags. With fully grown & large corals it is more difficult to readjust them to lighting changes... it is more riskier. Just ask the coral veterans. Even if you move a coral within your own tank from high to low & vice-versa you run the risk of discoloration & issues.

At the end everyone is obviously going to decide the pros & cons of both sides. We are just reporting our results. I respect Joe's findings & I will have that cloud over LED's until I allot more time to see the end results.

 

[d2mini]

d2mini, damn that tank is nice. What power setting/ratio you have the lights on?
I see many "natural" expanding and growing corasl. I could not tell whether you grew them under MH or LED's. Yes, the picture you took scream LED's because of the saturated colors. Shine those very corals with natural light & they will look more natural. Shine them with MH & they will look like corals under MH's. My corals look mostly brown when window light enters & no other light. What is said about natural light is true, we all know it.

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words.
But as much as some others have the same type of response when seeing my tank, especially in person, there is definitely a difference compared to my old tank that was mh/t5. The tank as a whole had a more natural sunlight "quality" to it. Not brown colors. MH come in a large array of spectrums, plus you have t5 to supplement. It's something else I can't quite put my finger on. Not spectrum. And then there are some of the other issues with individual corals that Joe pointed out. Having had both lighting systems for somewhat extended periods of time, there is definitely a difference.

Look how healthy this green stag looks in the old tank.

Here's the same coral grown in the new tank from a frag of the one above.

Doesn't really matter which you like best. And both are growing. The point is there is a big difference between the two and thats what this thread is about.

 

[FastUno]

On p68 I stated, "Here is my tank going from MH/T5 to 2 Chinese LED's & it has been exactly 2 weeks so far."


Have you checked with others running LED's & the particular coral in question? Are others having success or trouble with said coral?


D2mini, those pics are worth 1k words & I see what Joe means now. Hmmmm, there is no way for me to be able to see that now. I would need 6 months of growth & more like 1 year to see those differences & growth patterns. Just when I thought I was in the clear.

 

[rtparty]

Dennis, have you thought about throwing a couple of your MH over your tank and seeing how everything reacts?

 

[OoNickoC]

I've never looked back. A dialed in led setup can have amazing growth....there aren't many manufactures selling those though. I think custom is the way to got at this point. I mean lets face it, the prices just started getting reasonable.

So many valid points (and also some of the most worthless unfounded crud I've ever sifted through) it's a long read.

Its been touched on but I'll throw it back in the mix. LED technology has just recently broken through to the industry a plausible alternative. I has been around for a long time now but only recently have they even gotten serious consideration as a sole lighting source. Look at led fixtures around 2006 and compare them to ones from within the last 3 years or so. Massive leaps.
I've seen plenty of amazing growth with LED and many failed transitions as well unfortunately. I prefer my homebrew led for my nano systems hands down compared to a low watt hqi or even t5's because of heat and cost over time. For a 200 gallon plus monster with a full blown lab running it in a separate room....yeah 400w halide all day.

LED fixtures will vary rapidly evolve, who knows maybe a breakthrough in MH efficiency will too (I say this without any sarcasm).

 

[FastUno]

on 2/19 I said 2 weeks (p68) & early this AM it is the 17/18th day and I provided new shots from that same day.
Maybe we should compile a list of corals that do well with LED's & ones that do not. This way we can have people come in & give us a shock when their LED lit tank support the reported coral. We can all learn this way.

I agree. I had so many people tell me secretly that they did not have luck with T5's, meanwhile there are thee amazing tanks. I prosonally had a horrific time with T5's alone, but I was trying to keep lower light loving corals, such as mushrooms and not many SPS's at that time.
LED's will evolve & take their place. I think with T5's they will rock & that is why I will most likely add some to my tank.

 

[nynick]

on 2/19 I said 2 weeks (p68) & early this AM it is the 17/18th day and I provided new shots from that same day.
Maybe we should compile a list of corals that do well with LED's & ones that do not. This way we can have people come in & give us a shock when their LED lit tank support the reported coral. We can all learn this way.

That would be impossible given the amount of different led setups and made more impossible by most of them being adjustable.

We know that Radiums grow corals great and that led is very convenient. Why do we still not have a multi chip that mimics Radiums? It really can't be that hard to get a full spectrum multi with a 16k look. Now imagine they made a pendant out of it with a fan less heat sink to cut evaporation down to near nothing...who would not want to buy that?

Why is noone making one?

 

[OoNickoC]

on 2/19 I said 2 weeks (p68) & early this AM it is the 17/18th day and I provided new shots from that same day.
Maybe we should compile a list of corals that do well with LED's & ones that do not. This way we can have people come in & give us a shock when their LED lit tank support the reported coral. We can all learn this way.

I agree. I had so many people tell me secretly that they did not have luck with T5's, meanwhile there are thee amazing tanks. I prosonally had a horrific time with T5's alone, but I was trying to keep lower light loving corals, such as mushrooms and not many SPS's at that time.
LED's will evolve & take their place. I think with T5's they will rock & that is why I will most likely add some to my tank.

I feel you here! T5 led combo would be nice, would probably garner a decent market to.

 

[FastUno]

I think it is better to report non responsive corals than not to. With coral info we can report fixture, light intensity, height from water level...etc. Better than doing nothing & we can all be weary and give particular coral more attention.

Check out this May 2013 TOTM from RC with LED/T5's. Do you think Joe would have an issue with these growth patterns? If I had this tank & corals I would be the more than happy with any trade off:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859526&page=32

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859526&page=30

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1859526&page=33


Here are a few pics from his thread above:

 

[JPMagyar]

I feel you here! T5 led combo would be nice, would probably garner a decent market to.

The ATI LED Powermodule and the Pacific Sun Pandora fixtures are both such cutting edge fixtures.

We know that Radiums grow corals great and that led is very convenient. Why do we still not have a multi chip that mimics Radiums? It really can't be that hard to get a full spectrum multi with a 16k look. Now imagine they made a pendant out of it with a fan less heat sink to cut evaporation down to near nothing...who would not want to buy that?

Why is noone making one?

The Pacific Sun SMT panel is just such a creature. The problem is the spread. The SMT panels have intense "hot spots" with very little spread. The cone shaped area directly under each SMT panel is ideal, but you would need dozens of these panels to effectively cover a tank with 400 to 700 uMol/m2/s. That is the dilemma I ran into with my S2 fixtures. They are great in a tiny tiny little circle of light under each SMT panel. They're also perfect if you have a bunch of low light loving SPS or LPS. The problem is that Przemek the owner of Pac Sun is convinved that 200 uMol/m2/s is enough light and he's right for most aquarium owners, but not for those that want TOTM like SPS tanks.



Here are some spectral plots to show what I'm talking about . . .


Radium Bulb

SMT Panel

ATI Coral Plus Bulb

 

[JPMagyar]

Check out this May 2013 TOTM from RC with LED/T5's. Do you think Joe would have an issue with these growth patterns? If I had this tank & corals I would be the more than happy with any trade off:

Scott's tank is THE reason I tried the Pandora fixture, but it has twelve T5 39 watt tubes on a 180 gallon tank. Most importantly it is a hybrid NOT a pure LED. I absolutely think a hybrid done right would be perfect; that's why I spent over $3000 to try one. Sadly the Pandora just doesnt have quite enough even PAR for a TOTM quality SPS tank. If I were designing the perfect hybrid it would have four T5 tubes spread out 1 x 2 x 1 with LEDs in between the three rows of T5 and the LEDs would be spread out evenly across the length of the fixture with 70 degree optics and use no red LEDs and the LEDs would run at low power, but there would be many more LEDs than are currently used by most fixtures.