Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[ROR]

Well, I found this thread because I was becoming disenchanted with my LEDs. I've since done a couple of things that now make me love my LEDs, I'm never giving them up (I know, never say never).

I removed the optics. The corals have really brightened on the sides, rather than just being blasted form the top.

I added some extra colors to the RB NW combination to make it "full spectrum". This has really added depth to the colors, before I thought it looked a little flat.

To me it's not about saving money. IMO we have an ethical obligation to keep the carbon footprint of our tanks as low a possible.

 

[jerpa]

I spend $17 dollars more a month @$.13/kWh. 2x250w MH versus 2 Kessil A350.

 

[ganjero]

I spend $17 dollars more a month @$.13/kWh. 2x250w MH versus 2 Kessil A350.

Did you change your kessils back to mh? any particular reasons?

 

[fcatano]

I also switched toT5 after a bad experience with the radions and I will not go back to LED's, radions are overprice and overated, and I think that if you are in this hobby money should not be an issue.

 

[mhucasey]

I am about to switch from LEDs to T5s. The LEDs produce a lot of light that needs supplementation to get the color correct. I mostly had this dialed in but still looked at a lot of bland corals in my tank. I noticed that from a top-down view the corals were very brightly colored, but from the sides...not so much.

The light is just too directional still. Even a MH bulb in a decent reflector is sending light at the corals from multiple angles, eliminating shadows. Add to that most people supplement MH with T5s for color, actually providing more light from the sides in the process.

I looked at a lot of promising new LED fixtures, hoping to see something with the right spread, intensity, and a true full spectrum - i came close to changing to the GHL Mitras, but for 2400 bucks i wanted to be sure this was a workable solution. Then it struck me, these things run at 140 to 190 watts each flat out, so between them I'd be at 280 to 380 watts total. Thats a lot of juice for "energy efficient" fixtures - and yes full on would probably be overkill, id probably run at lower wattage, but who knows. I thought these Ecoxotic cannon 100W pendants Im using now would never be set to 100% but they are now.


i looked at a whole lot of Tank of the Month type tanks and my natural preference was always for the T5 tanks, so I looked into them - for 8 T5s that will cover my 36X28" tank, its 312 watts max. My Cannon pendants and Par 38 bulbs already draw 236 watts at midday, whats another 100W?

I know T5s will work, I can change the color any time, and they hit the corals from all angles, so there is minimal shading. Bummer on the loss of shimmer, ill get over it. Sold! I should receive my new 8X39W Sunpower fixture and bulbs tomorrow, and the total cost was less than 750 bucks before taxes and shipping. Ill take some before and immediately after pics for the thread once it's up.

I attached a shot of the current config

 

[ROR]

LEDs with optics are way too directional. Remove your optics, lower your fixture, and you'll have the T5 effect... with shimmer.

 

[Gillguy]

I too believe the technology for LEDS is not there yet but they will eventually get it right. Too many companies, lots of different fixtures, and too many reefers are experimenting for someone to not get it right. For now I will continue to keep my T5's along with my DIY LEDS. Four T5's and 120W LEDS on my 120g. Best of both worlds.

 

[mhucasey]

I use canon 100W pendants as my main LED light source - there are no optics, just a MH style reflector - they have good spread because of it. The par38 bulbs are supplemental and do have optics but they are high up and are just for color adjustment.

Removing the optics is a start but light in the center of a tank, optics or not, can only angle the light in from the center. The LED fixtures that have emitters in multiple locations are a better solution.

Most LEDs are missing spectrum in the low 400s, as well as color in the red and green bands. Put a color wheel under the LED lights and you will see that - reds look brownish red, bright greens look like army green, purples look brown.

I have had good growth from the LEDs but to achieve what I'm looking for when it comes to coverage and color I would need something like two GHL mitras(12 emitter clusters total, $2400) or maybe 2-4 Radion pros(not yet available, 900 bucks each). I don't care about spending the money, but I don't want to spend on a new solution only to upgrade again. Im already into LEDs for about 1500 bucks with what I have.

I will use the T5s in the meantime and I'm confident that LEDs will achieve what I need in the next few years.

 

[mhucasey]

I too believe the technology for LEDS is not there yet but they will eventually get it right. Too many companies, lots of different fixtures, and too many reefers are experimenting for someone to not get it right. For now I will continue to keep my T5's along with my DIY LEDS. Four T5's and 120W LEDS on my 120g. Best of both worlds.

I agree and the hybrid LED/T5 combo may be the best solution in the long term anyway - you essentially replace the traditional MH with the LEDs then use the T5s for color adjustment and to fill in the gaps. There are already some hybrid fixtures like this - ati is coming out with one in the near future in fact.

I looked at ways of adding T5s to the Canon pendant but couldn't find a compromise that fit correctly over the tank to my liking, and frankly the canons were long on promises of intensity and short on delivery. I've got them set to 100% for two pendants and they are not intense enough...

 

[nanoreefer1000]

Most LEDs are missing spectrum in the low 400s

The they created the TV led...

 

[mhucasey]

Yep, I have some violet LEDs in my supplemental fixtures, what i meant was most LED fixtures don't use them yet.

When you combine the right mix of leds in a "puck", they can be quite effective, or so it seems. Very few of these type of fixtures around right now but more will follow soon enough I'm sure.

 

[ROR]

They are here now. They're called DIY

 

[newenglandreef]

I'm finding that my coral, with AI Vega Color and a 20K look (with 100% blues and 40% white) and a small T5 supplement are responding with deeper, more rich colors. Still too early to tell, but my candy canes are coming back with that deep green color, which had been lost for a while.

It's difficult to dial these in--but I think that goes with the ability to dim, experience sunrise and sunset, and change the look of your tank with just a setting rather than a new bulb purchase. Think of how long the calc reactor took to dial in. I feel that this is just another piece of equipment that takes time to set correctly without reliable testing (like alk tests with a calc reactor)--so it's just having to wait and see. If all the same, the functions are the greatest and the lack of major heat/evaporation, etc. is the greatest.

Growth has not been an issue with LED's for me, I've never had sps grow faster than with LED's--even the Chinese ones (W/B) that I started with.

I'm definitely staying with LED's for now.

 

[newenglandreef]

I'm also curious the extent to which that LED's may contribute less to problem algae than other lighting.

 

[AcroporAddict]

Hello all,

I want to throw in my experience.

I had AI SOL blues for almost 2 years over my mixed reef. Zoa's, softies and lps all did fine. Grew well and had good color except for reds/pinks. SPS did grow and did show decent color, but nothing like Halide.

About a year into my setup a buddy of mine setup a 90ish gallon bowfront. After a couple months of his tank cycling we went in on a frag purchase here and ordered 2 of every sps frag the seller had (about 20 unique pieces). I am very anal about keeping my parameters spot on, he on the other hand is very busy and sometimes things go astray. For the first six months from the purchase of the frag packs I had no spike in any parameters, however he had 2 alk spikes and at least 2-3 temp spikes due to the AC in that room going out. His SPS frags lost a bit of color during the spikes but within a week they were doing fine again. My corals on the other hand did not look nearly as colorful and the growth rate was not even close to his. The real, only difference between the systems beside size (and his spikes in chemistry) were lighting (for the most part). I had 3 AI SOL blues, he had 2 150watt Phoenix bulbs with t5 supplements. I did have a alk spike previous to our purchase together and it literally took months for my corals to recover, some never did.

From my experience with LED, after 2 years, not impressed. I did love the gradual ramp up and ramp down, LOVE the blue's and the glow it gives coral however, where it really counts, growth and color, it just didnt do it for me. I also firmly believe that corals are more resilient under MH/T5 than they are under LED. Nothing factual about any of my statements, just my observations with my experience with LED.

Can LED grow and color SPS? Yes. Can MH grow and color SPS better? IMO, Yes.

I am in the process now of upgrading my 125 to a 225 and have since sold my AI SOL's (I even built DIY fixtures to compliment my AI's with violet, green and red leds) and now have Radium 250's with soon to be 8 t5's over my 125 and things are growing better than they ever have with LED.

Here is the fruits of my labor with LED:

This pic was taken right before I moved my 125 to its temporary place (at a friends shop), this is with the SOL's over it, all LED.

I dont have a pic of my system yet with the halides over it, when I get the tank moved back into my house I will try to get pics.

This is a great post summarizing much of my LED experience as well. I have been an exclusive LED user for two years, a year with AI Sol Blues and now a year with Radions, over a 300 gallon SPS tank, which then was upgraded to a 465 gallon tank.

Both brands of LEDs grow SPS coral, and some SPS color up very well underneath them, like seratiopora, pocillopora, and cali or oregon tort, but others dont. I have some acoporas that have grown incredibly well but are brown, even after six months. I have others that have not grown more than 1/2" in a years time. Another member of my local reef club made an observation that his sps under halides seemed to better be able to grow back from injury vs SPS under LEDs.

I've come to the conclusion that the advantages of LEDs, like no need for a chiller, less heating up of the room, are not worth the lesser intensity of color that I have with them with some of my SPS. I have no complaints about LPS coral colors, but SPS coloration seems to be lacking.

So I am setting up halides again over my 465 gallon SPS tank so I can see what happens with my coral colors. I'll be going from 8x radions to 4x 400 watt Radium, LumenMax Elite Reflectors, and Lumatek ballasts. I want to see what effect, if any, halides will have on my non growing SPS and my Growing SPS that are brown.

After some months with this new setup I'll make the decision whether to go back to halides permanently or set up the Radions again.

 

[TheReefKeeper]

This is a great post summarizing much of my LED experience as well. I have been an exclusive LED user for two years, a year with AI Sol Blues and now a year with Radions, over a 300 gallon SPS tank, which then was upgraded to a 465 gallon tank.

Both brands of LEDs grow SPS coral, and some SPS color up very well underneath them, like seratiopora, pocillopora, and cali or oregon tort, but others dont. I have some acoporas that have grown incredibly well but are brown, even after six months. I have others that have not grown more than 1/2" in a years time. Another member of my local reef club made an observation that his sps under halides seemed to better be able to grow back from injury vs SPS under LEDs.

I've come to the conclusion that the advantages of LEDs, like no need for a chiller, less heating up of the room, are not worth the lesser intensity of color that I have with them with some of my SPS. I have no complaints about LPS coral colors, but SPS coloration seems to be lacking.

So I am setting up halides again over my 465 gallon SPS tank so I can see what happens with my coral colors. I'll be going from 8x radions to 4x 400 watt Radium, LumenMax Elite Reflectors, and Lumatek ballasts. I want to see what effect, if any, halides will have on my non growing SPS and my Growing SPS that are brown.

After some months with this new setup I'll make the decision whether to go back to halides permanently or set up the Radions again.

Thank you djkms And AcroAddict
These Post are Very well put and they are no doubt facts from experience!! Thanks for posting some honest feedback!!! Exactly why I can't make the switch just yet. They work yes just not as good as the Old 20K Radium I'm sure they will get their but it's just not the time yet.

 

[mikeatjac]

On my 120 I have used 2 250 watt Radiums, 4 bulb T5VHO fixture running 95 watts on a 4' bulb (best growth I have ever seen) and three weeks ago I switched to 3 Radions.

I left the radiums because of the heat they generated in my home office. Great bulb BTW. In Feb I changed to the T5VHO unit and got fantastic growth. But I missed the MH shimmer. I am fortunate to travel the SE and get to look at many tanks. I have seen many LED tanks that looked great. I set a bench mark of 6 months use before I would say the tank was successful with LEDs. There are many great looking LED tanks out there that have been up for a while.

So I decided I would get into LEDs. You can get cheap chinese LEDs but I have found you need a lot fixtures and have very little control over then. After playing with Vegas' and Radions I went with the radions.

A big point that is not brought up here is the control over the color temp and light intensity over the course of the day only a good LED fixture will give you.

So I have had LEDs for only three weeks which is not nearly enough to say I will get the growth I did with more conventional lighting systems. So far my colors are holding and all corals still have their growth tips. But OMG the ability to control your lights is over the top. Even if I do not get the growth I had, my tank is fun to watch.

Here is a picture of my tank at 12K, I need a new camera, it hates blues.

 

[Kellyrt]

I like how most of you are comparing the best mh against middle of the run leds like radions and vegas even some diy setups. Compare your radion bulbs against a Vertex Illumina and see what happens

 

[megadeth72]

the best leds right now are DIY multichip, not the 1-3w led arrays they are pretty weak compared

 

[Big E]

I like how most of you are comparing the best mh against middle of the run leds like radions and vegas even some diy setups. Compare your radion bulbs against a Vertex Illumina and see what happens

What's the difference.............they are all using the same Cree LEDs for blues, royal blues & whites.

The 48" Vertex Illumina SR260 would be a fair comparison & I don't see how it's going to perform any different or better with respect to coloring corals.

Three of the Sol's or Radions would probably give you the same coverage & cost would be comparable or less than the Vertex in the Sol's case.