Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
power boat jim
Well-known member
I think you can make an argument either way. Its just one of scale. I had 3x400 w MH running and it took a 4" AC duct off my central air to cool the sump. My tank room was seldom below 80 in the summer. Spent $3,000 on LEDs. Energy bill went down 45 dollars a month. Thats 540 dollars a year on lighting electrcity alone. Save 280 dollars a year on bulb replacement. My ac unit now cools only the house that cost is about 25 dollars a month saved for 5 months. For a total of roughly 945 dollars a year direct savings. IM money ahead 18 months from now since I have had the lights 18 months already.
Now take someone who runs a 175w MH or 2 and goes out and spends 900 bucks on a radion LED. That return might take 9 years to recover.
meshwheel
New member
Thank you Jim,
In all fairness, I could not calculate it out, because I have not owned LED's. But I can see larger tanks certainly moving much quicker to savings.
Provided a few things:
1. Corals are thriving and the owner is happy with the results.
2. Nothing burns out during the "offset the cost peroid" for the hobbyist trying to save money.
There's probably a cut off point too. If a tank is too small it may never pay for itself.
And in all fairness, most people never make money on their hobbies! Most people spend spend spend. And it would not be a issue for me if the prices where not so crazy on some of the units.
This reminds me alot of the BIG solar debate...................
In all fairness, I could not calculate it out, because I have not owned LED's. But I can see larger tanks certainly moving much quicker to savings.
Provided a few things:
1. Corals are thriving and the owner is happy with the results.
2. Nothing burns out during the "offset the cost peroid" for the hobbyist trying to save money.
There's probably a cut off point too. If a tank is too small it may never pay for itself.
And in all fairness, most people never make money on their hobbies! Most people spend spend spend. And it would not be a issue for me if the prices where not so crazy on some of the units.
This reminds me alot of the BIG solar debate...................
Allmost
New member
Watts to lumens produced.
LEDs have recently been able to "get close" to fluorescent lamps. still alot left to do
megadeth72
New member
Watts to lumens produced.
LEDs have recently been able to "get close" to fluorescent lamps. still alot left to do
lol
" a fool and his money...." :blown:
Those willing to pay outrageous prices for the latest technology should know before making a purchase that it might be a bad one, especially with little empirical proof of value/worth. Those outrageous prices have NOTHING to do with the cost of manufacture.
FWIW, Cree 3w LED's can be purchased for under $2 apiece in bulk.
Exactly why I spent several months researching forums, articles and scholastic journals prior to designing and building my array. It might not have "storm mode" or a built in laser light show (well, it could if I wanted), but it does the job that I designed it to do, and it does it rather well, at the same upfront cost and with less recurring costs as compared to "traditional" lighting methods.
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power boat jim
Well-known member
The T5s are 2x 54w lights mounted on each side wall of the canopy to help refract light to the bottom and sides of the coral. They are on only 2 hrs a day. They were also used when I had my MH set up so the energy use by these lights was already accounted for.
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rrasco
Active member
My favorite part: people bashing LEDs who have not used them, for whatever reason.
LEDs work, if you don't have success with them, there are a few scenarios:
1. You are doing it wrong
2. You wouldn't have success with a reef to begin with
3. You are doing it wrong
4. You bought the wrong fixture
5. You are doing it wrong
6. You built the wrong fixture
LEDs make corals lose color when they are not at the right intensity and/or spectrum. Adding pink/red LEDs help bring out those respective reds and oranges. UV helps add color too.
You can't convince me of any of the claims here that are not circumstantial to improper use or application of LEDs; whether that be intensity, spread, and/or spectrum. This is not from evaluating others experiences alone, it's from my own first-hand experience. More often than not, when someone complains about 'LEDs not working', there is an explanation for it such as lack of spectrum or running them high. LEDs at 100% is very very bad, for the corals and the emitters themselves. In a worse case scenario, optic-less emitters can be run at 100%, but you will lower the life of the emitter as well as increase heat output, which can possible shift the output spectrum of the emitter. I know this, from experience. Although, I adjusted the current on that fixture to only hit 85% max intensity (600mA).
I've never used MH, so I can't attest to either one working better than the other. What I can add is that LEDs do in fact work to grow coral and produce vivid color and visuals, when executed appropriately.
LEDs work, if you don't have success with them, there are a few scenarios:
1. You are doing it wrong
2. You wouldn't have success with a reef to begin with
3. You are doing it wrong
4. You bought the wrong fixture
5. You are doing it wrong
6. You built the wrong fixture
LEDs make corals lose color when they are not at the right intensity and/or spectrum. Adding pink/red LEDs help bring out those respective reds and oranges. UV helps add color too.
You can't convince me of any of the claims here that are not circumstantial to improper use or application of LEDs; whether that be intensity, spread, and/or spectrum. This is not from evaluating others experiences alone, it's from my own first-hand experience. More often than not, when someone complains about 'LEDs not working', there is an explanation for it such as lack of spectrum or running them high. LEDs at 100% is very very bad, for the corals and the emitters themselves. In a worse case scenario, optic-less emitters can be run at 100%, but you will lower the life of the emitter as well as increase heat output, which can possible shift the output spectrum of the emitter. I know this, from experience. Although, I adjusted the current on that fixture to only hit 85% max intensity (600mA).
I've never used MH, so I can't attest to either one working better than the other. What I can add is that LEDs do in fact work to grow coral and produce vivid color and visuals, when executed appropriately.
to further elaborate, I don't think it's feasible to build a LED fixture that works for everyone. There are many variables that do not need to be considered for traditional, omnidirectional light sources that are critical for adequate LED performance.
rrasco
Active member
And I would agree with you 100%. LEDs don't have the convenience of buying a fixture, throwing it up, and everything is gravy...as you can typically do with MH or T5. In some cases, you might get lucky, but it would be unwise to do so with LEDs. There is indeed a learning curve for LEDs.
meshwheel
New member
rrasco,
My grandpa and dad taught me this long ago. I teach my kids the same:
1. Learn from your mistakes= SMART
2. Learn from someone else's mistakes= SMARTER
I value everyone's opinon here and always try to learn as much as I can. Let me put this scenerio out there for you guys. Its a guy lets just say I know......LOL
36x18x24 reef tank. 65 gallons. Center rear overflow.Tank will house SPS corals. Lagoon zone. Currently he's useing a 250 watt Lumenbright fixture with 14K Hamilton bulb over his smaller tank.
Choices:
1. Purchase another 250 watter to add for the 36 inch length? Total 500 watts
2. Purchase a 6 or 8 bulb ATI T5 fixture. Total 312 watts
3. One Maxspect Razor LED. Total 160 watts
4. Two kessil 350's. I think those are 90 watts each. Total 180 watts(correct me if i'm wrong)
So look at the differences in wattage. and I am sure heat will be a substantial difference. He has a chiller, so he can manage the heat issue's and plan to use it regardless of which lights he go's with.
Halides: Now, he could run the 2 250 watters probably only 7 hours a day and a actinic T5 for the rest of the time. Or a led blue strip or some other solution. That would afford him 1.5-2 years on the halide bulbs...........
T5's: 8 bulbs in ATI fixture is bright. Maybe 1.5 years on bulbs before changing them out.
Led's: substantial heat and wattage difference. Will it be enough light? 500.00 investment.
What do you guys think?
My grandpa and dad taught me this long ago. I teach my kids the same:
1. Learn from your mistakes= SMART
2. Learn from someone else's mistakes= SMARTER
I value everyone's opinon here and always try to learn as much as I can. Let me put this scenerio out there for you guys. Its a guy lets just say I know......LOL
36x18x24 reef tank. 65 gallons. Center rear overflow.Tank will house SPS corals. Lagoon zone. Currently he's useing a 250 watt Lumenbright fixture with 14K Hamilton bulb over his smaller tank.
Choices:
1. Purchase another 250 watter to add for the 36 inch length? Total 500 watts
2. Purchase a 6 or 8 bulb ATI T5 fixture. Total 312 watts
3. One Maxspect Razor LED. Total 160 watts
4. Two kessil 350's. I think those are 90 watts each. Total 180 watts(correct me if i'm wrong)
So look at the differences in wattage. and I am sure heat will be a substantial difference. He has a chiller, so he can manage the heat issue's and plan to use it regardless of which lights he go's with.
Halides: Now, he could run the 2 250 watters probably only 7 hours a day and a actinic T5 for the rest of the time. Or a led blue strip or some other solution. That would afford him 1.5-2 years on the halide bulbs...........
T5's: 8 bulbs in ATI fixture is bright. Maybe 1.5 years on bulbs before changing them out.
Led's: substantial heat and wattage difference. Will it be enough light? 500.00 investment.
What do you guys think?
megadeth72
New member
I would not pick either of those leds, look at the china led thread
djkms
Fish Freak
I dont think anyone in this thread is disputing that LED's work. What is being said is that MH's work BETTER as far as growth and coloration and many of us have seen this first hand. I grew SPS under AI SOL Blues for 2 years and was far from impressed compared to MH systems. I don't think it because we are doing it wrong as you state, I think it is because some of us have actually used both styles and prefer MH to satisfy our own tastes.
bhazard451
New member
AI Sol Blues fall under "bought the wrong fixture". I have seen way too many less than stellar experiences from it, and MH would be better usually compared to them IMO.
I tinker with different leds and fixtures ALL THE TIME, and I still don't think I've found a Holy Grail layout. Its a huge pain in the *** trying to determine newer and better led layouts, where all you need for MH is a bulb change.
I'm really close though with this new DIY light I'm building, and the only way to get the types of leds and color control needed for it are through DIY methods at this time. NO fixture on the market has a perfect blend yet. I thought the Radion Pro would, but nope. I saw for my own eyes over my own tank that it still needs some improvement. A few warm whites, neutral whites, and cyan instead of green could work wonders on it.
bhazard451
New member
bhazard, have you done any work on a DIY fixture with a build thread? I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with
Why yes I have:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2255754&highlight=chinese+apex
I actually have the light for sale too in the used hardware forum. At 100%, it hits a perfect 14k with a nice crisp white to it. Great blend of leds, extremely powerful. Needs an Apex to run. Spanks around a Radion Pro all day in performance, but not control. Very MH like look. Grew coral quite well. Was great over my cube, but its too small for my new 125 gallon.
The improvements needed are individual red\green\violet channel control. It's really nice to be able to dial in the look you want, and with multiple colors on one channel, you can't really do that.
Ron Reefman
Active member
meshwheel, define OUTRAGOUS money? I just lit my 180g DT for $700. The MH I took off cost $1100 plus bulbs every 12-18 mths.
And I think the days of leds getting better and better are just about over. The leds are about as good as they can get. The lights may have more sdd-on goodies that enhance the fixture, but don't really improve the leds. And many of those enhansements will be things that can't be done with t5 or MH fixtures.
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