Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[heritage]

Aqualund has a pretty good basis for his statements. There is a thread here that details how different spectra effect the coloration and growth of corals. If you google it you should get some hits.
On the other hand, what you state is only based off of personal experience with no controlled variables.

True, I understand what his basis is, but we are still assuming that the light is not hitting the proper nanometer range. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. But the fact remains that the coral is growing and the parts of the coral that are exposed to the light are colored up.

This is just my thought but I think most of the problem is that the light is to focused.
Maybe the leds are to close?
Maybe a wider optic would help?

I'm just not sure. :headwallblue:

 

[Aqualund]

Oh well in that case...yes a wider optic would help, if not fix it. This entire time it seemed like you were saying there was no solution.

I have about 20 different sps colonies and none of them have anything like that, and if there is shading...its at the very bottom of the base where there isnt light regardless of the system.

And feeding the corals might help you too. 3 times a week, oyster, mussel puree and plankton varieties.

with respect to nanometer range, unless you built the unit yourself, or it is one of the most recent releases by AI or Radion which still dont have it all, you are definitely missing some frequencies that are necessary to the growth, health, and coloration of your sps corals. That coral in particular will do just fine under rb/cw combos, but it will be amazing if you throw some 417 and 430nm lights over it as a supplement, and tone done the cw to about 50% of their max.

 

[heritage]

Oh well in that case...yes a wider optic would help, if not fix it. This entire time it seemed like you were saying there was no solution.

I have about 20 different sps colonies and none of them have anything like that, and if there is shading...its at the very bottom of the base where there isnt light regardless of the system.

And feeding the corals might help you too. 3 times a week, oyster, mussel puree and plankton varieties.

with respect to nanometer range, unless you built the unit yourself, or it is one of the most recent releases by AI or Radion which still dont have it all, you are definitely missing some frequencies that are necessary to the growth, health, and coloration of your sps corals. That coral in particular will do just fine under rb/cw combos, but it will be amazing if you throw some 417 and 430nm lights over it as a supplement, and tone done the cw to about 50% of their max.

I never thought that there was no hope.
I know the lights are doing what they should, just that when you look at the coral from the front or side, there is little to no color. You don't see this with t5 or mh, and of course those of you who use diy lighting.
And I agree, I have no way of knowing what the exact range is. I can only gauge it off of how well my coral grow and color. For the most part everything is growing fine and have good color, especially the lps.

So given what little we know about this fixture, and I'm using the one I linked to, what would you recommend as for a t5 supplement bulb or bulbs ?

I have a couple of single bulb fixtures that I was going to use, just not sure what bulbs to go with.

And I do feed my corals on a weekly basis. Rods food and reef chili

 

[michaellee64]

If you're going to supplement the LED's with T5's use the ATI Blue Plus. Awesome Par and great spectrum for color pop!

 

[Aqualund]

If you're going to supplement the LED's with T5's use the ATI Blue Plus. Awesome Par and great spectrum for color pop!

Yeah thats a good solution for you I think!

 

[heritage]

If you're going to supplement the LED's with T5's use the ATI Blue Plus. Awesome Par and great spectrum for color pop!

I was actually thinking a blue plus and coral plus.

 

[michaellee64]

+1 on the coral plus if you're going to run more than 1 bulb! If you're going to run just one individual bulb, I would use the Blue Plus and put it as far forward as possible and aim the reflector at an angle towards the back of your tank.

 

[heritage]

+1 on the coral plus if you're going to run more than 1 bulb! If you're going to run just one individual bulb, I would use the Blue Plus and put it as far forward as possible and aim the reflector at an angle towards the back of your tank.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Using both single bulb fixtures and angle them in. One in the front and one in the back.

 

[Allentown]

Have we now degenerated into casting a judgment over the LED issue based on a single anectdotal story based on a single LED fixture? I had A car once that was a lemon. Can I deduce all cars are lemons?


I guess in a year or so I'll have an anecdote of my own, although that really won't prove anything either. What we really need is an objective large scale results survey taken from tanks with otherwise near perfect parameters and care. I don't think that exists. I don't have a link but I'm pretty sure I have seen tests with MHs on one side and LESs on the other side of the tank and the LED side (of the same tank) faired just as good or better. Unfortunately those tests may have been influenced by the LED manufacturers. It's also true that we lack any trustworthy statistically long term data.

However, as biased as that may be, when given the choice of putting more faith in those tests and and some anecdotal fan boy Dick measuring contest on an internet forum....I'll probably err on the side of chosing those tests.

My opinion which I know is basically worthless, is that the choice of and application of LESs requires a bit more skill and it's being mishandled in the anecdotal stories. Given that...MH are probably better for THOSE individuals.

 

[sirreal63]

There's a flaw here. If you argue your MH you bought years ago still works today, well, so do many led fixtures bought years ago. The difference is that leds get better every year, but you never see MH improving significantly.
It's like computers. Old ones work, but newer ones are better, and they improve every year. That doesn't mean you should never buy a computer.

There is no flaw, the tech doesn't need improving which is why it it is the benchmark that the LED producers have been reaching for, since the Solaris and still have not really reached. If I choose to use a different bulb I can but that old Solaris won't be so easy to change anything on. My lighting is not a variable, I already know what to expect from it, and it works without question. If something isn't to my liking with the corals, I know I don't have to consider it being an issue with my lighting, the spectrum, lack of spectrum or anything light related.

 

[James77]

There's a flaw here. If you argue your MH you bought years ago still works today, well, so do many led fixtures bought years ago. The difference is that leds get better every year, but you never see MH improving significantly.
It's like computers. Old ones work, but newer ones are better, and they improve every year. That doesn't mean you should never buy a computer.

What do halides need to improve on? They have already reached the peak of performance, save for a couple small differences. We have fantastic reflectors that really have no room fro improvement, the ballasts we have now range from magnetic rock solid ones to switchable wattage ones. The bulbs are well known, and have endless trials in peoples tanks as well as sites like Sanjays. You can get a M80 ballast, LumenBright (or any major brand)and a radium and know that lighting will not be an issue at all for you.

This is coming from even just 10-15 years ago, with "meh" bulbs and poor reflectors. My first set of reflectors were laughable. So halides have already improved to the point where they are pretty much at the peak of what they can be. LEDs are very new in the hobby, and are going through the stages of improving. What was THE setup for DIY a few years ago(just cool whites and royal blues) is silly now. Optics, spectrum, and features are all improving. But every major fixture that comes out now is THE one that replaces all lighting, yet in a year....it is blown away by the next generation, which are again THE best thing.

Yes, the computer analogy is fair, there is always a gamble and rapid obsoleting. But the computers now are IMO exceeding the needs of the average user. The processing power on the ones I use have no need for more, they are lighting fast. Windows 8 stinks though. But you could say that halides are at the peak, while the LEDs are moving up through the improvements....maybe at the stage comps were in 2000. No one doubts they are going to be the light of the future, but people should relax and accept that they are going to be criticized.

 

[Allentown]

And it occured to NO ONE to 1) Buy more LEDs to hit their corals from more angles then just directly above and 2) To make sure they had the spectrum covered or supplement?

And we blame lights? Isn't kind of like handing the car keys to a first time driver and then when a crash occurs.....blaming the car?

 

[power boat jim]

There is no flaw, the tech doesn't need improving which is why it it is the benchmark that the LED producers have been reaching for, since the Solaris and still have not really reached. If I choose to use a different bulb I can but that old Solaris won't be so easy to change anything on. My lighting is not a variable, I already know what to expect from it, and it works without question. If something isn't to my liking with the corals, I know I don't have to consider it being an issue with my lighting, the spectrum, lack of spectrum or anything light related.

Very true,but the thing I have a problem with is people who have run LEDs for a year or more and something happens to the tank and the first thing people want to blame is the lights. My tank has been LED for over two years, and it has ups and downs. None of which I have traced back to the lights.

When the water parameters are right, proper spectrum LED lit tanks can and will look every bit as good as any MH lit tank.

 

[sirreal63]

People always blame the least probable cause, that's human nature. When it comes to water parameters, we only test for a few of of the hundreds of things that can be out of wack. I too have had unexplained issues but learned to do large water changes and without fail it corrected itself every time. It wasn't the light, no question about it. I. Would also add that numerous people with extensive experience have noted a change in coral colors with LEDs, and the color change was corrected by going back to traditional lighting, with no other changes. Where it gets fun is not everyone has had that experience. It indicates that light may be an issue or that water quality or nutritional changes could also be an issue.

 

[asid61]

Color change is definitely there in leds, I agree.
But if MH has hit its peak, then I guess it's good to stay with it. On the other hand, I bet in 10 years at most leds will have surpassed MH. Plasma lighting will probably be starting up seriously by then too.

 

[unze]

LEDs seems to be far better in colouring corals, since I added my mitras LEDs my corals have amazing colours.
I had LEDs on one side and Halides on the others. LEDs easy produce the best colour.

 

[Allentown]

Another thing that i have not seen discussed is certain LED lighging installs which let you move the LEDs around easily. The sliding racks have that, the goosnecks are quck to move, the hanging options however are pretty much stationary. A second point is those who have variable spectrum abilities and have their LEDs hooked to a controller that vary the spectrum throughout the day. For example my A360s vary the spectrum nearly continually throughout the day where as something like my sky blue Kessils are locked in.


It would be interesting to see if the successful LED keepers are 1) moving their lights around once in a while (or on a regular schedule) and 2)Varying their spectrums to cover a range versus locking them in on one setting.

So much that needs to really be figured out here, but i feel like if we knew all these details (along with some of the other points i made above)...then we would finally have a defninitive answer on what the missing link is.

Lets say hypothetically that i got lucky and stumbled onto the answers just now. The options would be 1) Buy a quality LED set and vary the position and spectrum regularly, or 2)By MH/T5s and vary the bulbs, replace the bulbs/ballasts every so often.

And those would be your options.....

 

[buffalo123]

MH tested and works well, LEDs being tested in the hobby last few years. Thats the reality of it. Our aquariums are the real testing ground for LEDs as it was for MH. MH had years of hobby use in horticulture before wide spread use in the aquarium industry. By now enough has been shown to say yes LEDS can support a reef aquarium. Now tweeking and optimizing have to be done. Of course we often waste time trying to make our reef look like a christmas tree lite up imo. Dusk to dawn program not enough. Thunderstorms not enough. (can't do that with MH). I am currently a MH user but considering LEDs for the last year or so, I've grown corals under MH 6500k, corals grow fast don't look as pretty; grown them under 20000k coral look pretty don't grow fast.
The advantages of LEDS certainly out weigh MH: power use, bulb life, programmability. I am a bit suspicious of the LEDs claim life span. (some 40000 hrs) I remember the compact florescent bulb with the last 7 yrs writting on the package. Just maybe the fixture fail before the LEDs. Maybe they should rate the whole fixture. Maybe it can say LEDs rated 40000 hrs fixture and supporting components 2-4 yrs. hmmm

 

[scolley]

I am a bit suspicious of the LEDs claim life span. (some 40000 hrs)... Maybe it can say LEDs rated 40000 hrs fixture and supporting components 2-4 yrs. hmmm

You've hit the nail on the head with that one. In my DIY LED rig I run one of the more popular drivers (basically the power supply) made by Mean Well. And they don't even publish MBTF times, just a 2 year warrenty. And that in itself says something. The LEDs might last for 10 years, but I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that most drivers are going to fail WAY in advance of that. Particular because they get warm. And heat is the death of electronic circuitry.

Otherwise, why don't my drivers have a 5 of 10 year warranty? Bottom line, IMO LED users that think they've got a 10+ year fixture are kidding themselves.

 

[Allentown]

You've hit the nail on the head with that one. In my DIY LED rig I run one of the more popular drivers (basically the power supply) made by Mean Well. And they don't even publish MBTF times, just a 2 year warrenty. And that in itself says something. The LEDs might last for 10 years, but I'd wager dollars to doughnuts that most drivers are going to fail WAY in advance of that. Particular because they get warm. And heat is the death of electronic circuitry.

Otherwise, why don't my drivers have a 5 of 10 year warranty? Bottom line, IMO LED users that think they've got a 10+ year fixture are kidding themselves.

Resting my hands directly on the fixture yeids the conclusion that they are BARELY "warm to the touch".

A360Ws: About as warm as a my 8 week kitten when she nudges up next to me.
A150s: About as warm as a pop tart 30 seconds out of the toaster (quite a bit warmer than the A360s but by no means "hot")