Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[MedRed]

Wow really nice tank. That rock work looks amazing.

Thank you!

In all fairness, he hasn't really bashed the old light systems except the vegas.

Pretty spectacular reviewer fail overall though.

Medred, it's hard for me to tell for certain, but it looks like your SPS improved significantly under MH, but your LPS look like maybe they aren't as happy with the change. Is that accurate? Medred really knocked it out of the park with the aquascape.

The LPS all did really well with the transition. The Dendros were the only thing that had a negative reaction. They quit opening up so much during the day like they did under LEDs. When I switched to 550w of MH, the Acans suffered for a few months, but finally acclimated and look better than ever now.

 

[Allentown]

This .....

I am not taking sides but I want to say this. Read some of Dana Riddle's articles on coral colors.

For sps mainly, not so much other corals but the pigments actually come from spectrum they dont like as much as the spectrum they use.

Sps produce pigments and proteins to block certain spectrum's of light or maybe even change it to something they like. They produce pigment to block uv as an example. Most sps come from very shallow water and a few even bake in direct sun part of the day and get hit with full spectrum and uv... so basically some pigments are actually sunscreen.. So lets say we take away the uv what happens to those pigments over time that are used to block uv?

We seem to focus on the spectrum of light chlorophyll like the most but that is only part of the picture. If it were just about chlorophyll most of our corals would come pretty much the same area but what allows some to grow in direct sunlight while other in the shade?.

Another issue is we are trying to keep all different corals from different areas and zones all next to each other under the same type of lighting... This is unnatural and every coral is different.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

Sps produce pigments and proteins to block certain spectrum's of light or maybe even change it to something they like. They produce pigment to block uv as an example. Most sps come from very shallow water and a few even bake in direct sun part of the day and get hit with full spectrum and uv... so basically some pigments are actually sunscreen.. So lets say we take away the uv what happens to those pigments over time that are used to block uv?

Yep you are 100% right, the issue however for the fish keeper is that both T5 and MH and also LED's do not produce anywhere near the amount of UV-a (which is the UV you are talking about) to replicate this in captivity, if they were we all would be having eye issues and having to wear sunscreen.

The lowest any of the outputs go to into the UV-a spectrum is 380nm most of that 380-400nm if not all is filtered out by both glass/plastic lenses and the water itself.

All lamps on the market whether LED MH or T5 should be in compliance wiith EC/EN 62471 standard, Photobiological Safety of Lamps and Lamp Systems. IEC/EN 62471 gives guidance for evaluating the photobiological safety of lamps and lamp systems including luminaires. Specifically it defines exposure limits, references measurement techniques and the classification scheme for the evaluation and control of photobiological hazards from all electrically powered incoherent broadband sources of optical radiation, including LEDs.

So I highly doubt any UV-a coming from any lamp we use on our tanks has much part to play in the colouration of the corals tissue.

 

[Khemul]

A lot of the problem with LEDs seems to come from a lack of standard really. Different color combinations, different intensities (even across the same fixtures thanks to dimming), all kinds of variables. MH and T5 are easy since you can just send someone to a website that sells X bulb and have them order what is known to work.

The other problem is people seem to look at LEDs completely backwards. If color is what you are after, then just go with MH or T5. Why? Because odds are the color you are looking for with the SPS was the color it had under MH or T5 to begin with. They've been the standard long enough that the colors people expect are the colors gained under those lighting types. It's a bit silly really. People take a coral, form a mental image of how it should look based on how it looked under MH or T5, then take an LED light that doesn't really try to replicate MH or T5 all that much, and are shocked when the colors don't come out the same.

If growth is the problem, then yeah, complain about the LED fixture.

 

[DarkStalker]

what's the color led usually get?
mine was brown most of the time, then I feel I had the right to be upset with my light

 

[HurricaneSystem]

Everyone immediately wants to point fingers. It isn't about this fixture or that fixture, it is about what the corals respond best to.

A sure fire way to grow corals and get the coloration that they normally are is MH, simple. My Acropora Speciosa was under MH at Liveaquaria and it was a seafoam green. Now, after 3 weeks of having it, it is just white with yellow tips. The color is not there.

Liveaquaria has their corals under 20k 400W metal halides. So I am interested in seeing if the colors come back under the MH's.

 

[DarkStalker]

Is your Water quality the same as liveaquaria?

 

[plasma327]

Everyone immediately wants to point fingers. It isn't about this fixture or that fixture, it is about what the corals respond best to.

A sure fire way to grow corals and get the coloration that they normally are is MH, simple. My Acropora Speciosa was under MH at Liveaquaria and it was a seafoam green. Now, after 3 weeks of having it, it is just white with yellow tips. The color is not there.

Liveaquaria has their corals under 20k 400W metal halides. So I am interested in seeing if the colors come back under the MH's.

You have not been patient enough to know what is best for your tank yet, let alone lighting. Patience and good husbandry is key to a good reef tank. You can throw thousands at it but take time to see what is best for your tank, not you!!

 

[maroun.c]

A lot of the problem with LEDs seems to come from a lack of standard really. Different color combinations, different intensities (even across the same fixtures thanks to dimming), all kinds of variables. MH and T5 are easy since you can just send someone to a website that sells X bulb and have them order what is known to work.

The other problem is people seem to look at LEDs completely backwards. If color is what you are after, then just go with MH or T5. Why? Because odds are the color you are looking for with the SPS was the color it had under MH or T5 to begin with. They've been the standard long enough that the colors people expect are the colors gained under those lighting types. It's a bit silly really. People take a coral, form a mental image of how it should look based on how it looked under MH or T5, then take an LED light that doesn't really try to replicate MH or T5 all that much, and are shocked when the colors don't come out the same.

If growth is the problem, then yeah, complain about the LED fixture.

I guess color is the real factor in a tank as eventually that is what you or anyone looking at the tank at a said moment will see. Growth will come eventually!!!
Regardless of any mental image of how a coral should look under any light people will just prefer to have the otpion that will give better color! unfortunately we don't get the choice of direct comparison before making our choice so we have to go through the long way to find out what might or might not work.
Looking at LPS, mostly chalices and Acans, Zoos...I'd say theres no match for LED.
Acroporas: Appraently is the opposite except some cases where reefers have a better understanding of lighting and of course excellent water parameters in both cases.
Now to go back to the start of LED we all had T5s and MH which we knew worked perfectly, and most important knew what to expect (even with different combination with different ballasts and reflectors) The only reson to switch to a much more expensive technology was:
-A nicer light color Confirmed
-An costly initial investment that would break even after a year or two of usage: Not really true. We had to change our fixtures for newer dimmable ones to avoid frying our corals, change our optics for more spread to avoid the shadows, then switch to another new fixture with now said complete spectrum. Then each vendor had so many fixtures over a very short time hat it jsut became confusing and the "expectability" factor got lost. the initial "Long time Savings" factor never really happened with the changes people had to make all the time, not to mention that on a what to what comparison the LED fixtures consume the same whattage (mostly true on larger tanks) so the saving was only around less chiller running time. Which is not so important in 6 months of cold weather...
So Eventually yes people have the right to complain especially when the colors arent there anymore.
I'm not saying LED won't work, they will but then remmeber when a small shift in spectrum with a 6 months old bulb was causing an alga outbreak, Now people are allowed to play with their spectrum all day long, i
m sure that will have consequences on coral coloration!
Also the fact that a growing large colony will be under different light in different areas due to the bad spread so might endu having different looks in different areas in the tank! I can only wonder how that would effect it chemically with it needing to have different protection to different light 5-10 inches appart!!!

 

[GatorAlum05]

mh will always be the standard for fast growth.

that being said, i prefer LEDs. I like the aesthetic look of my rimless reef savvy with radions. Colors and growth is steady and my tank doesn't heat up like an oven.

to each his own.

 

[MrIcky]

As others have said in the thread, I think the mistake is one of people buying the cheap LED fixtures. Same as Halides really, the cheaper you buy, the less quality you see.

If you were to purchase Mitras, Radion Pro's, Kessil A360W's etc. you would be just fine. I tried AI Vega's and had disastrous results.

I took the following readings with my Apogee 200 PAR meter. REMEMBER, this is only at 90% output and at 70% intensity level. The 70% is at 13k as well. I took these with all pumps off, water very still.

Mitras 6200HV @ 70% overall intensity

3000 PAR – Directly under Mitras
1450 PAR – 10” under Mitras
775 PAR – 1” under water surface
375 PAR – 12” under water surface
200 PAR – 24” under water surface – Sand Bed

Now in another thread, I took the PAR readings of another fixture that I was using. That was at 100% and these numbers are almost exact, and sometimes better, at 70% intensity. Plenty of PAR from the Mitras LED.

The coverage is excellent as well, it covers my 24 inch cube perfectly. There is very little "spillage" as well. The reflectors on the LED's are more precise than any fixture I have had.

The fixture runs very cool and there is no heat that is exchanged into the water than I can discern. The fans are silent at all levels, you can't even hear them when you put your ear up to the fixture.

Just an incredible amount of positive changes. I read a lot of reviews here and on other areas of the internet about the Mitras. None of them do the fixture justice. It performs at the highest level and can make even the most entry level reef enthusiast, look like a seasoned professional.

I am sure I haven't covered everything here, but I would be glad to answer any questions you might have.

Is the Mitras worth the asking price? Every penny. The software is extremely easy to use and those of you who have used the "Office" ribbon in 2007-2013 Word, Excel, etc. will be right at home with the software. It really couldn't get any easier or user friendly.

My search for an LED is over. My corals have already shown growth in the limited amount of time I have had the Mitras. It is a fixture in a league of it's own.

I was getting ready to order either a 250w or 400w Metal Halide fixture right before the Mitras. Even with my last LED that did well, it still could not replicate the look and growth of my old Metal Halide. I am very glad I waited and bought the Mitras. It far surpasses my MH in all areas.

The UV spectrum, let me make that clear so there is no ambiguity, spectrum, is necessary for LED coral growth. It is a must.

I have the Mitras 6200 HV LED and it is a fantastic fixture. I still am not seeing my Acros color up like they should for whatever reason. I just ordered a Hamilton Cayman Sun 400W MH with the 14k bulb.

I want to put that over my cube for a bit and see if my corals color up any.

Nope, not bashing any lights. That is the wonderful thing about being able to make your own choices.

And for everyone's information. I don't know that anyone, using any fixture, has been able to achieve the color and growth of MH yet have they?

And why is it a spectacular reviewer fail? You do know that a "review" is just that right? It isn't a contract that says "I shall never change any lighting for the rest of my days".

Everyone immediately wants to point fingers. It isn't about this fixture or that fixture, it is about what the corals respond best to.

A sure fire way to grow corals and get the coloration that they normally are is MH, simple. My Acropora Speciosa was under MH at Liveaquaria and it was a seafoam green. Now, after 3 weeks of having it, it is just white with yellow tips. The color is not there.

Liveaquaria has their corals under 20k 400W metal halides. So I am interested in seeing if the colors come back under the MH's.

/sigh. Here is why it's a reviewer fail. What you've done is basically given no more than a bunch of 'unboxings' without the useful youtube video. You've made sweeping declarations of what works even while knowing there was evidence to the contrary.

So in a month, you've gone from a mini-crash blamed on vegas (which wasn't the vega's fault) through Kessil, Radions (2 different times), and now Mitras.

For weeks you swore that all people needed was UV in their fixtures and things would be great. People who needed real help listened to you because of your conviction. You blindly ignored and argued with people pointing out facts to you, including very experienced and knowledgeable people.

If you had your Mitras set to throw 200 par on the sandbed based on your testing, then you simply bleached your new coral. No big mystery. Also, it appears you bought a new coral simultaneously to your brand new light. So who knows what all that coral went through.

Now if you have luck with MH, you are going to be the guy that swears that LEDs are no good for SPS and only good for zoas or some other useless declaration made with the utmost conviction. This despite the fact that we know people have had success with ALL the fixtures you've tried including the vegas. In a nutshell, it's you.

If you want to give a good review, a) slow down. b) get your tank established first. c) give 3 to 6 months of data, preferably with pics. d) aim for a consistent par on the bottom so you can rule out intensity over spectrum.

 

[jda]

I have four months each of AI Sol, Razor and some Kessils. I know that these are not super awesome lights, but they were the best when I took an extensive amount of money and time to give it a go - I don't know of too many others who have actually done this. In the same system, the growth was OK, but the colors were not so great when compared to 250W 14K Phoenix. I can see how they might have looked good to people who don't know the difference, but there is probably not a single person with extensive SPS experience who would argue that the color was better. I had to keep the whites down to about 20% and I also had to use 2 panels in a standard 58G satellite tank to keep from getting horrible shadowing which doubled any future endeavor (I won't say investment since those are supposed to be go up in value). I could get slightly more growth (not hardly worth talking about) and lots more color out of a single 150W HQI. To me, there is no success, but my standards are pretty high, but I also have quite a bit of depth and breath of experience with SPS and know what I like. My experiment might have been successful to others, particularly those who don't have a lot of experience with high end SPS.

I have seen over 100 LED lit tanks wit my own eyes, including at vivid and neptune (only mentioned because people point to them a lot). I have gone out of my way when traveling to stop by and see tanks from hobbyists and businesses. I can unequivocally tell you that I would personally be disappointed with the color that EVERY SINGLE LED lit tank has. I imagine that they are very impressive to people who don't know much better.

Instead of getting all worked up over which is better, and all of that, it might be better to just ask about expectations. It all boils down to this. Mine are high and I know the difference. Some do not.

Like everything, others will disagree.

 

[DarkStalker]

I have four months each of AI Sol, Razor and some Kessils. I know that these are not super awesome lights, but they were the best when I took an extensive amount of money and time to give it a go - I don't know of too many others who have actually done this. In the same system, the growth was OK, but the colors were not so great when compared to 250W 14K Phoenix. I can see how they might have looked good to people who don't know the difference, but there is probably not a single person with extensive SPS experience who would argue that the color was better. I had to keep the whites down to about 20% and I also had to use 2 panels in a standard 58G satellite tank to keep from getting horrible shadowing which doubled any future endeavor (I won't say investment since those are supposed to be go up in value). I could get slightly more growth (not hardly worth talking about) and lots more color out of a single 150W HQI. To me, there is no success, but my standards are pretty high, but I also have quite a bit of depth and breath of experience with SPS and know what I like. My experiment might have been successful to others, particularly those who don't have a lot of experience with high end SPS.

I have seen over 100 LED lit tanks wit my own eyes, including at vivid and neptune (only mentioned because people point to them a lot). I have gone out of my way when traveling to stop by and see tanks from hobbyists and businesses. I can unequivocally tell you that I would personally be disappointed with the color that EVERY SINGLE LED lit tank has. I imagine that they are very impressive to people who don't know much better.

Instead of getting all worked up over which is better, and all of that, it might be better to just ask about expectations. It all boils down to this. Mine are high and I know the difference. Some do not.

Like everything, others will disagree.

I have not seen that much tanks with led, but have seen some pretty good tanks with led and only one have really great colors, all the others are disapointing

 

[AQD_ottawa]

I am not sure how to write this without sounding like a perpetual salesmen Goes with the territory of being a distributor I guess. But if I am allowed to take my positional hat off I would love to be able to point out some differences that you may find with the Mitras LED.

Many users and I mean long term users, first adopters now into their second year have said that they can get everything they could out of T5 and MH from this fixture and more.

The stand alone factor is in the way the unit projects the light. It does not use optics but reflectors. Metal coated PET reflectors, 99% total reflection 96% diffused, this is pretty much what you get with T5. The reflectors took 2 years to develop with a leading German Lighting Lab, the results seem to be a spread and spectrum of that of T5 with the power of MH. The LED's having peaks within the same ranges of most commonly used T5 tubes also helps, for example the HyperViolet peaking at 425nm.

I am just sharing some info into the debate which I hope is useful and why users seem to have success with this fixture and continue to use them long term without complaint.

Read the reviews and judge for yourself of course. I hope I have not just thrown myself to the RC wolves,

 

[power boat jim]

I have four months each of AI Sol, Razor and some Kessils. I know that these are not super awesome lights, but they were the best when I took an extensive amount of money and time to give it a go - I don't know of too many others who have actually done this. In the same system, the growth was OK, but the colors were not so great when compared to 250W 14K Phoenix. I can see how they might have looked good to people who don't know the difference, but there is probably not a single person with extensive SPS experience who would argue that the color was better. I had to keep the whites down to about 20% and I also had to use 2 panels in a standard 58G satellite tank to keep from getting horrible shadowing which doubled any future endeavor (I won't say investment since those are supposed to be go up in value). I could get slightly more growth (not hardly worth talking about) and lots more color out of a single 150W HQI. To me, there is no success, but my standards are pretty high, but I also have quite a bit of depth and breath of experience with SPS and know what I like. My experiment might have been successful to others, particularly those who don't have a lot of experience with high end SPS.

I have seen over 100 LED lit tanks wit my own eyes, including at vivid and neptune (only mentioned because people point to them a lot). I have gone out of my way when traveling to stop by and see tanks from hobbyists and businesses. I can unequivocally tell you that I would personally be disappointed with the color that EVERY SINGLE LED lit tank has. I imagine that they are very impressive to people who don't know much better.

Instead of getting all worked up over which is better, and all of that, it might be better to just ask about expectations. It all boils down to this. Mine are high and I know the difference. Some do not.

Like everything, others will disagree.

You bet,

Wow, Ive heard it all now, let me I understand this correctly. So,not only are leds inferior so are the people who use them? Your take is anyone who thinks they are getting better or impressive colors on an LED lit tank only thinks so because they just dont know any better? Really? I have been doing this for 13 years and happen to like the performance, yes both growth and color, of the LEDs I have now over the MH I ran for 10 YEARS! but I must not know any better. Also, what makes you think that other people who like the performance of their LEDs dont have as high of expectations as you do?

I can understand that you prefer one form of lighting over another but to say anyone who thinks their LED lit tank is better then a MH lit tank has low expectations or just doesnt know any better is way over the line, but some may disagree.

 

[MrIcky]

I am not sure how to write this without sounding like a perpetual salesmen Goes with the territory of being a distributor I guess. But if I am allowed to take my positional hat off I would love to be able to point out some differences that you may find with the Mitras LED.

Many users and I mean long term users, first adopters now into their second year have said that they can get everything they could out of T5 and MH from this fixture and more.

The stand alone factor is in the way the unit projects the light. It does not use optics but reflectors. Metal coated PET reflectors, 99% total reflection 96% diffused, this is pretty much what you get with T5. The reflectors took 2 years to develop with a leading German Lighting Lab, the results seem to be a spread and spectrum of that of T5 with the power of MH. The LED's having peaks within the same ranges of most commonly used T5 tubes also helps, for example the HyperViolet peaking at 425nm.

I am just sharing some info into the debate which I hope is useful and why users seem to have success with this fixture and continue to use them long term without complaint.

Read the reviews and judge for yourself of course. I hope I have not just thrown myself to the RC wolves,

LOL, not really wolves around here. Pretty lighthearted group typically compared to some other boards. Honestly, I've heard nothing but good things about your fixture. It's always helpful to see growth and color pics documented though.

 

[jda]

Without knowing the breadth and depth of experience of those users, or even what they keep, the opinions are nearly worthless... as is every other opinion on Dan Quayle's Interweb. When I see some high end reefers, farmers or fraggers, without an interest in selling the units, come out and support any fixture, I will really pay attention - this has simply not happened. Don't you think that if a lower wattage, longer lasting fixture would appeal to people who do this for a living with a REAL bottom line? Don't you think that they have tried - some with quite a significant investment. Performance is paramount to these people, and those people still use MH, and T5, for their bottom line. Most of the people that I have seen with LED successes are not on the same level as others, or are willing to accept some level of less-ness for other benefits.

Stop using the current chips and develop a single chip that puts out a nice MH-like spectrum. Then, you will have something that might have a chance of winning everybody over. Until then, all of this appears to just be more misdirection and spinning of a technology that is not quite at a high enough level for all to use - from controllers, dusk/dawn, thunderstorms, pucks, panels, reflectors, not reflectors, lenses, etc... none of which can change that the current diode set is lacking... yet every manufacturer says that they found the secret, and then releases a new secret in six months. Again, this will work for some, but not all... which is why we have these threads.

Also, develop a large tank solution. For most higher end SPS users with larger tanks, it takes 3-4 of the current panels to replace a single radium with a good reflector.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

It's always helpful to see growth and color pics documented though.

You just nailed it really! Time to get hold of a cruddy looking SPS frag and put in my tank and do a 6 month journal.

You just gave me a winter project

 

[jda]

Your take is anyone who thinks they are getting better or impressive colors on an LED lit tank only thinks so because they just dont know any better? Really?

This has been my experience from looking at hundreds of SPS tanks and talking to their owners coast to coast (not really so much the south since I don't get down there much, or outside of the US). Most of them have never seen a truly high end SPS reef, the seed fragments and colonies that the farmers and fraggers keep to sell, the displays of the fraggers and farmers, etc. Most of them have some experience, but most of it is based on what they did in their own homes, pictures on the web and message board posts. If you have been around and seen a wide swath of high end SPS tanks and think that your SPS under AI Sol Blues are better, or even equal, then I would really like to see with my own eyes the next time that I am in Chicago. If you are ever in Denver, you are welcome to come by - I can also arrange a tour of other high end SPS tanks in the area, including one with connected 180G reefs both lit with 400W Radium and AI Sol Blue and you can see side by side the difference. Once exposed to more tanks, these same people will even tell you that they did not know how much more colorful their SPS can be - some of them still post on here that had the same initial reaction as you did to my doochebaggery (PM me if you want some usernames).

For me, I don't really care too much if somebody has better color in their own tank after switching. I am looking at how these tank results compare with other tank results. To me, personal results are like practicing a sport whereas getting out and seeing how I am doing is playing the game. There are many who are find just practicing, but there are also many who want to play - to each their own. I want to play, and play well.

I am not saying that I am right, my opinions or incontestable or anything... just that I have taken the time and money to make an effort and post about what I have seen as it relates to what I want out of how I do this hobby. I am not be the only person with these opinions. ...however, I can totally see why so few of them choose to post anymore. My apologies to any that don't share my opinions or don't really care to read them.

 

[MrIcky]

Excellent, I look forward to following your journal.