Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

I am **ap at taking photos but I know a man that can. Just emailed my local vendor to see what he has thats brown with a hint of hope of colour to at least give some fighting chance.

Anyway getting off topic back to the sparring ring ;)
 
Large scale coral farms in the thousands of gallons are using large banks of AI Super Blues to grow coral healthily and with tons of colors to be resold wholesale.

LEDs work and it comes down to just subjective personal experience. I personally prefer T5s not because of colors but because of how light surrounds SPS branches and lead to more all around polyp growth.

I think the best setups now are T5 + LED setups from proven vendors like ATI and Pacific Sun.

The GHL Mitras has supposedly magically good reflectors that can simulate the surround sound light of T5 but I haven't really seen it in the 1 LFS that carries them.
 
/sigh. Here is why it's a reviewer fail. What you've done is basically given no more than a bunch of 'unboxings' without the useful youtube video. You've made sweeping declarations of what works even while knowing there was evidence to the contrary.

So in a month, you've gone from a mini-crash blamed on vegas (which wasn't the vega's fault) through Kessil, Radions (2 different times), and now Mitras.

For weeks you swore that all people needed was UV in their fixtures and things would be great. People who needed real help listened to you because of your conviction. You blindly ignored and argued with people pointing out facts to you, including very experienced and knowledgeable people.

If you had your Mitras set to throw 200 par on the sandbed based on your testing, then you simply bleached your new coral. No big mystery. Also, it appears you bought a new coral simultaneously to your brand new light. So who knows what all that coral went through.

Now if you have luck with MH, you are going to be the guy that swears that LEDs are no good for SPS and only good for zoas or some other useless declaration made with the utmost conviction. This despite the fact that we know people have had success with ALL the fixtures you've tried including the vegas. In a nutshell, it's you.

If you want to give a good review, a) slow down. b) get your tank established first. c) give 3 to 6 months of data, preferably with pics. d) aim for a consistent par on the bottom so you can rule out intensity over spectrum.

Quoted for truth.
 
Without knowing the breadth and depth of experience of those users, or even what they keep, the opinions are nearly worthless... as is every other opinion on Dan Quayle's Interweb. When I see some high end reefers, farmers or fraggers, without an interest in selling the units, come out and support any fixture, I will really pay attention - this has simply not happened. Don't you think that if a lower wattage, longer lasting fixture would appeal to people who do this for a living with a REAL bottom line? Don't you think that they have tried - some with quite a significant investment. Performance is paramount to these people, and those people still use MH, and T5, for their bottom line. Most of the people that I have seen with LED successes are not on the same level as others, or are willing to accept some level of less-ness for other benefits.

Stop using the current chips and develop a single chip that puts out a nice MH-like spectrum. Then, you will have something that might have a chance of winning everybody over. Until then, all of this appears to just be more misdirection and spinning of a technology that is not quite at a high enough level for all to use - from controllers, dusk/dawn, thunderstorms, pucks, panels, reflectors, not reflectors, lenses, etc... none of which can change that the current diode set is lacking... yet every manufacturer says that they found the secret, and then releases a new secret in six months. Again, this will work for some, but not all... which is why we have these threads.

Also, develop a large tank solution. For most higher end SPS users with larger tanks, it takes 3-4 of the current panels to replace a single radium with a good reflector.

"Those people", current panels" "current diode set" ? What people, diode sets and panels are you talking about? What are these "secrets" that "every manufacturer" release every 6 months?

You say that opinions are worthless if you do not know the experience of the people giving them but we have even less to go on from you. We do not even know who "those people" are.

What LED fixture were you using if you needed 4 led panels to replace 1 MH bulb. I replaced a 2 250w MH bulbs/T5 combo with 2 120w custom ratio Chinese generic panels (with many, many colors that my scatter brain has forgotten what they are. I ever chucked in a couple of UV "just in case") and almost fried my tank. I am running at roughly 50% at the moment and it is still a tad bright for some shrooms but my clams and other corals love it so....screw the shrooms! :)

A lot of people have been mentioning large sps systems in these discussions. What does the size of the tank have to do with the quality of the light other than that you will be needing more of it?
 
The GHL Mitras has supposedly magically good reflectors that can simulate the surround sound light of T5 but I haven't really seen it in the 1 LFS that carries them.

Just an Fyi there are over 30 dealers in the USA that carry GHL not just one ;) .

what was the retailer you saw the unit at? would be interesting to see who it is to report back how long they have had the unit and what project they are running. All feedback is good feedback.
 
Leaving now. This thread has degraded to baseless speculation, arbitrary statements, and dead-wrong information all based on personal biases. It's like some kind of ethical debate.
 
sadly the issue is a lack of actual scientific study, we all are reliant a lot on user feedback, the issue is does that user have the knowledge to really be a viable source of education.

Here are my thoughts and I have been selling LED since it first came to real attention and that includes 4 of the leading brands.

To prove T5 or mH is better for colouration than LED is very very difficult, you can take your treasured T5 unit off your tank and put the highest end possible LED on the tank and watch the colours fade? Is that the fault of the LED? If you look deeper at the SPS stress reaction to change I think you will find the answer closer there. So you then have to slowly over time balance your new LED unit if indeed its capable in the first place to re capture the glory you had before.

My point above is if you change from T5 or MH to a well designed and research LED unit there will be a transition and this could be anywhere up to 6 months in my view. Also keep tweaking and playing with the intensity and output will only make matters worse. If you decide to buy LED expect a transition and it maybe a few months, if you buy the right fixture it will pay off, i am sure.

I believe the negative comes from the end user gets frustrated blames the lamp and goes back to a pre tuned MH or T5, low and behold in a few months things bounce back, most likely if the LED fixture (again if it had any worth) would have also seen the same corals come out of the stress pot and start to show their colours.

Another point, if you did not have much colour before, dont expect LED to suddenly be your miracle cure, some corals simply dont have the ability for many reasons to be blue green purple with pink spots, they are just brown. Did you buy it brown? how do you know its going to shine from here on? Whats your tank husbandry like (HUGE factor)

Quality, yes I sing from the high roof here because of what we distribute however I strongly believe based on seeing the immense amount of research that goes into these high end fixtures that you get what you pay for. I have no doubt in my own personal view you are not going to get much luck throwing a cheap fixture over your tank. Where is the development/research cost in that bargain price?

GHL took 2 years developing their reflector, they did not do that for kicks. Same goes for Ecotech with their in house TIR lenses.

GHL Mitras uses linear dimming to truly replicate the smooth dimming you get with T5, again this all costs money, but the results stand for themselves if you watch it in action. Both the above commonly are not found in lower priced fixtures, but its the bargain priced fixtures that carry the majority of the sales I would bet?

My theory is this - client buys "affordable" LED lamps ("well its got the same amount of LEDS or more as the more expensive one so...." but how does it deliver that light? spread? diffused? no hot spots? disco ball? Said client after 6 months does not get the results from his affordable LED and blames LED in general and goes back to T5 or MH.

My suggestion is and I speak as a hobbyist first (yes I do) if you are going to take the leap into LED look for the fixtures that the manufacturers have done their research and spent time and effort in development, look for long standing reviews, try and seek out the odd scientific review.

Dont rule out LED because it failed you, look outside the box, how long you gave it was the fixture truly a fixture that could replicate T5 and MH (I believe only two out there can), what was your tank like before the change and if it canned, how long did you give it to recover from the stress of the change.

I will quit my rambling here by concluding IF you are going to take the route of LED spend the money it will pay you back in the long run, but also expect a transitional stage. ;)

I personally do not believe mixing LED with T5 is the answer either as the biggest driving force in the fixture is the T5 with LED providing effects such as tuned moonlight and shimmer. But thats my personal view.
 
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I grew my tank for over a year under LEDs (sol blues and raidions) from very small frags. When I switched to MH, the color exploded.
Exactly the same story here, except I used the same fixture for almost two years. My growth was acceptable, but coral color sucked. Plain and simple. I watched as new frags slowly faded color. Then I'd visit the parent colony the frags came from and was reminded of how vibrant the color used to be. *sigh* Scooped up a cheap MH from a local reefer and began regaining color instantly. After 2 months of MH use, I was positive coral color was on the rebound. I didn't rush anything or change anything else in my routine.

As I said, I think it was just a case of everybody claiming they know what works best when actually we were all nearly trial and erroring it. Call me jaded, but I'm not turning to an all LED setup again anytime in the next few years. I don't care who promises what with whatever pictures. LEDs have to be the future of this hobby. They just have to be. They're much lower power, much less heat produced, have no bulbs to replace, and give us much more control. HUGE ENORMOUS REVOLUTIONARY advantages in this hobby. But as of now, the performance just isn't nailed down. When big name manufacturers stop producing MH and T5 fixtures because they're simply antiquated design (due to the advantages listed above), I'll give LEDs another chance.
 
All I want to see are pictures of LED lit tanks with a variety of coral that look just as good as equitable setups under MH and/or T5. I still believe if you want your colors to look their absolute best, current LED applications won't get you there. Maybe one day they will, but not today. If you can live with less than ideal color, then the benefits of LED might be worthwhile. That's not a tradeoff I'm willing to make.
 
I Put Reef Brite XHO's LED on my old 200, I hated them worse lights i ever owned, fish had shadows and dark spots, i just gave up and went back to VHO's before i sold the tank.
 
I was just looking at the latest reef hobbyist magazine and an article on Acan coloration and morphing. There was a stark difference demonstrated between MH and T5. Not just different shades but completely different colors in some cases, and it's not clear if either color is the 'true' natural color.

From my limited diving experience, most of the SPS I've seen don't match the colors in a tank under any lighting scheme. MH often looks like reef pictures with flash photography to me. What MH seems to do best is bring out the reds that often wash to brown in some LED tanks. The most color accurate tanks to my eyes appear to be the NPS tanks.

I think MH lighting looks more natural in the way it interacts with water, but I'm not convinced that MH is the gold standard on coloration.
 
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Bit of an experiment for fun I am trying in my tank. As I said in an earlier post I have thrown the gauntlet down and found the most cruddy looking coral I could find and see what it does under GHL Mitras for 6 months.

as you can see from the near dead SPS which has some grow back, this came to me from a dealer and stripped itself of near all tissue in 24 hours, but a glimmer held on, I stuck it at the back of the tank and have been watching it for the past 2 months not only start growing out but also go from brown to hues of green blue and purple Camera does not overly pick it up.

The other two plates were also brown, as you can see from the front green one, there are still slight shades of brown left, lets see how they mature also in the next 6 months.

I will do a separate thread on RC for all to follow once I have finished scouting for another pretty crappy looking acro to see what that will do too.

Sorry about the bad photos particularly the shimmer effect on the sand, this was taken on a I (hate) pad.

Again this is just for fun not trying to make some huge technical or lab based study, but some might find it more interesting.

Photos (yes the monti behind the SPS also suffered when I fist got it but you can see thats going a nice blue and lots of new growth)

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I think the biggest issue with LEDs is that they are so much more intense than any other type of light that people are overdoing it with their coral and causing stress...

you have to keep in mind that LEDs are more laser-like than conventional lighting and they look dimmer to our eyes than halides or T5 do, if we try to match that look, we fry our coral

I'm convinced that LEDs are the future in reef lighting but it takes a bit of time to acclimate the coral to them, I still have halides and T5 but I also have LEDs, my coral did just fine and had great color under the LEDs, my red planet actually looked better to me under the LEDs after being grown out under 250w 14k Phoenix bulbs, but it took some tweaking with the LEDs, where the halides were basically plug and play...

I moved and took down my tank but when it goes back up, it will be all LED lit but I'm not gonna discard my halides just yet :)
 
Well, another way to look at it is like this. We took a few dozen differnt light fixtures, took a hundred or so different corals and set them up under any one of a thousand different equipment and tank variations running at any one of several dozen differnt spectrums and intensities/ light schedules by a few hundred (or more) users.

Then, we claim the technology must "suck" when we have a couple dozen users with bad experiences.

If we proceeded this way with other technology we would not even have cars on the road much less computers, smart phones or TVs...we would have long since declared all those endevors as "failed" and given up.
 
I recently went from a DIY LED setup to MH/T5 combo. When I setup my new 150G this summer I decided on switching to MH's. My LED light had 60+ lights, 4 drivers, 60+ lenses, 120+ wire connections vs. 2 bulbs, 2 reflectors and 2 ballasts. Metal halides were just much more practical in setup and general operation. I also couldn't stand the insane shimmer and disco effect of LED's. My halides shimmer is more subtle and natural in appearance.

However, I'm glad there are so many LED users out there, especially the DIY'ers, they are the ones that are helping evolve the technology so I wouldn't be critical of them. I foresee that I will eventually go back to LED's, but not yet. I'll let a couple more generations of lights come out. Seems manufacturers are moving towards puck/multichip and full spectrum style lights to solve some of the shortcomings of earlier generations. When I stop seeing dramatic changes between light fixtures then I'll know that the industry is honing in on a proper build. However, if I were to switch back today I would look for a LED/T5 combo fixture. The ATI Powermodule LED looks awesome, but not worth the price right now.
 
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