Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[buffalo123]

Some good reading on this thread. I agree that not always the fault of the LED s. Certainly could be coral & reef need longer to adapt. LFS went from T5 to radions , In a couple weeks he had algae all over , seem like another cycle of some kind happened . 2 months later reef back to nice again.
That one story . If you tried for two years and then switched back well you tried , maybe wrong fixture.

 

[nynick]

The industry is also biting itself in the *** by making almost everything led related very complex. I understand that people who work in this field find 18 channels, charts and thunderstorms endlessly fascinating but save a few hobbyists, the rest of us do not.

When things get complicated and confusing we are drawn to what is familiar, in this case MH / T5. Look at Apple vs Blackberry for example. Blackberry is far better and endlessly customizable, Apple is simple and looks great. We all know who won that battle.

I think Kessil is really on to something here. I just wish they would be a little less white/blue. I am sure there are other colors involved in their chips but that is how they look to me at least. I really like this idea of a tiny lamp with a knob and a cord....and that is it. If they could just do a full spectrum 16k chip where all the knob does is change the intensity.

 

[ganjero]

Research - Speaking as having an inside hand at GHL especially, the research was done with a leading Lab at a German university over 2 years, thats quite the credential there. Ok anyone can then reply back prove it, I get that, but at some point the skeptical hat has to be taken off otherwise we all would be driving Model T Fords.

What next - thats the beauty of modern technology who knows? its a ride, its up to the hobbyist if they wish to jump on the ride and embrace the future or are happy with the existing technologies

Marketing - Even T5 and MH are not UV-a, we would all have good suntans otherwise, they also would fail approval for light emissions. UV has been a marketing term long before LED ever came about. Some LED units as do T5 tubes and MH have soft peaks into the higher end of the UV-a spectrum typically 380-400nm but I would of thought be filtered out by any glass shield or water column.

T5 & MH are not exclusively UV-a bulbs, but the do emit plenty of UV-a light. There is plenty of research out there to prove it. A quick search in the internet will show you results from different sources.
Honestly, I don't see T5 violet bulbs (and obviously MH bulbs) marketed as UV bulbs. In the hobby LED companies are the ones that started marketing violet diodes as UV.

I'm not sure if it was posted but is there public access (including the name of the lab and university) for the research you mentioned?

 

[AQD_ottawa]

T5 & MH are not exclusively UV-a bulbs, but the do emit plenty of UV-a light. There is plenty of research out there to prove it. A quick search in the internet will show you results from different sources.
Honestly, I don't see T5 violet bulbs (and obviously MH bulbs) marketed as UV bulbs. In the hobby LED companies are the ones that started marketing violet diodes as UV.

I'm not sure if it was posted but is there public access (including the name of the lab and university) for the research you mentioned?

My belief from my own Googling is that any UV-a emitted is very low (has to be to get through EN testing standards) and will be filtered out by lenses and water. So even if there is a component of UV-a it cant be much I suspect and not getting to the corals.

In regards to the research, GHL I highly doubt will publish such things, it would be fair game to the competition. for an example, My new sports diff on my Audi for instance, Audi wont release to me how they developed its in built cool features.

 

[jda]

The UV in, say a 400W Radium 20K bulb, is at the same intensity as the light above 500nm and it nearly goes down to 300nm. There is a lot. Glass will get most of it. Seawater will get the rest after 4 or 6 feet. Does anybody have a tank deeper than 4 or 6 feet? There is little doubt that UV gets into the water with a MH bulb. It is unknown if coral does anything with it, at least from what I have gathered. It is quite likely that some coral use the UV and emit back out Violet and blue spectrum that our eyes see - meaning that UV does help color. It is also possible that it does nothing. In any case, it is very likely there.

UV definitely gets to the shallower water corals in the ocean.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

All bulbs are tested to EN 62471 standards for UV output as far as i am aware.

http://www.lightingeurope.org/uploads/files/LE_Photobiological_Safety_Feb2013.pdf

The hope is that none of these bulbs produce enough UV to create harm I guess, if they do they should be installed behind shields for the safety of the corals if nothing else.

I am no guru on this or pertain to be just a slave to google, interested in any research that says UV-a has been tested from any T5 or MH lamp to reach our corals.

 

[jda]

UV is a hazard for Humans - not coral or other animals.

Why would a hobby-based light intended to grow coral, algae, etc. be even looking at, or subject to, lighting standards developed for human eyeballs? Are you saying that it is possible that LED fixtures developed in Europe could possibly be lacking in what coral need to grow since they were developed under eyeball standards that might be harmed by what corals will want/need?

 

[AQD_ottawa]

From my research UV actually is a huge risk to corals.

Corals dont need UV-a to grow in fact the complete opposite they produce pigment as a sunscreen to protect against it.

Google

UV light effects on coral tissue
In nature, ultraviolet light waves (UV-A and UV-B) penetrate the ocean's surface but are filtered out as the light travels through the water. Both UV-A and UV-B light waves have been found to cause destruction of DNA and RNA within coral tissue. In response, many corals have made adaptations to reduce the effects of these harmful rays. These corals developed protective pigments that are often blue, purple, or pink in color. Most corals that contain these pigments come from shallow waters where the amount of UV-A and UV-B light is higher than in deeper areas of the reef.

In home reef aquariums that rely on metal halide lighting, it is important to protect corals from UV light. Coral without these protective pigments as well as shallow water corals that may have lost their pigments during transportation are especially susceptible to the effects of UV light. Fortunately, preventing any UV light from entering the aquarium is as simple as employing glass aquarium canopies and making sure the protective glass lens on the metal halide fixture is properly installed.

It is not uncommon for corals with these bright colors to adjust to the lower UV-A and UV-B conditions found within home aquariums. The loss of colorful pigmentation is not necessarily a sign of an unhealthy coral - it is simply a normal coral adjusting to its new environment

 

[jda]

I guess that you need to let Giesmann and AB know that their MH bulbs and any reptile based lighting violates this standard.

There are pigments are there to handle the UV. Those proteins oftentimes have color. While light sources like MH do indeed let some small trace of UV into the tank, why is it so hard to believe that coral can look better under MH than LED where the coral might lose those pigments since they are not necessary in the same quantity, or at all?

If you believe Google that these sunscreen pigments have color, then I might suggest that you all are the first to get some true UV in your fixtures to R&D and see.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

If you believe Google that these sunscreen pigments have color, then I might suggest that you all are the first to get some true UV in your fixtures to R&D and see.

as I said before most full spectrum LED fixtures do go slightly into the UV-a range to about 380nm which from the research i have done seems to be about the same MH release. whether any of that reaches the corals to have any effect, I have no clue.

I have said many times I am not professional in this, I post as a hobbyist gaining my info from general web research, i am happy to be educated along with everyone else in this subject, i think it benefits all of us.

One thing is for sure this thread has turned into a well structured debate which i think we all are learning something from. :beer:

I am going to step out now though, but thanks for everyone allowing me to join in and I hope some info I have learned and passed on is of some benefit to the debate. I will post a link to my own little test in the near future

all the best
Michael

 

[HurricaneSystem]

My new Cayman Sun Metal Halide has a piece of glass covering the bulb for that purpose. I am running the 20k, 400W bulb.

Here I go with my off the cuff responses to lights, but this is the right choice for sure. The Mitras is by far the best LED on the market I have used. The Radion Pro is second and right in line with the Kessil as well in my opinion.

Metal Halide is better than any LED fixture, still. Take it for whatever you will, but it was definitely the right choice for me to switch back. I will post some pics in a few days, but MH is still just the way to go. I just don't think LED has made it to where it needs to be yet. The colors and look is there, but the corals just don't respond like they should.

 

[meshwheel]

I WANT MY UV! I WANT MY UV!!!! And the new Hydra52's got it. And they know it's what helps color up corals. I want my lights as natural to sunlight as possible. Then lets come up with a formula to cut that UV down to say a UV amount at 5-15 feet of water for SPS keepers.
The correct ratio is out there. We just have to nail it. And these newer STRONGER lights are getting it!
The more they put out in terms of PAR, them better the SPS corals seem to do in my opinion. I know that's a very subjective statement, but take it as you will.
My 400 watt 20K Osram Powerstars used to sunburn the hell out of my head and neck when I worked under them. My corals loved those bulbs!!!!

 

[HurricaneSystem]

Been a long time for me and halides, man they put out A LOT of heat lol. I am happy with the fixture though, so far, lol.

I might make a dumb blanket statement here, but I think it is something to do with the heat waves that the MH puts out as well. It is just like the sun, the natural environment.

LED puts out 0 heat. So in some ways, do you think our corals are a bit confused by LED'S? They see all the light, but feel no heat.

It is something like walking out in the snow, but feeling no cold.

Just a thought.

 

[rishma]

Been a long time for me and halides, man they put out A LOT of heat lol. I am happy with the fixture though, so far, lol.

I might make a dumb blanket statement here, but I think it is something to do with the heat waves that the MH puts out as well. It is just like the sun, the natural environment.

LED puts out 0 heat. So in some ways, do you think our corals are a bit confused by LED'S? They see all the light, but feel no heat.

It is something like walking out in the snow, but feeling no cold.

Just a thought.

I just have no idea what to write...

 

[sirreal63]

I am reminded of the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz.

 

[evolutionZ]

What?! Corals feel heat?! Gosh...

 

[stancfii]

For growth, it's all about PAR. Any fixture, LED or otherwise, is Russian Roulette without a PAR meter. ESPECIALLY the DIY led builds. You'd be amazed at how little of a change in current it takes to go from too little to too much with LEDs. Add in all the variations of colors and reflectors or optics and things get even more precarious. T5/MH/VHO have been around long enough and are more evenly distributed lights; it is easier to take a swag and put it on the tank, and you'll be ok. Remember the watts/gallon rule?

As for color, it all depends on spectrum. With NW/RB, my green hornet zoas are green. Add cyan, the rings turn yellow. Do I like that? Maybe, but others might hate it. I think there are a lot of spectral gaps in LEDs that are not there in traditional lighting, especially in the HV and UV ranges, and that light gets used and reflected back as longer wavelengths in a more visible part of the spectrum to give us what we feel is missing in LEDs. Kind of like DayGlow and highlighters--they need UV to look brighter than real. LEDs are going to have to cover more wavelengths before they give traditionalists a reason to switch over.

To me, the Razor was at a price point and controllability level (as well as lack of heat) that made leaving MHs worthwhile, for now. To each his own.

 

[Aqii]

September Reefkeeping TOTM was a four year old diy fixture...Some nice colours there...Santoki runs his 4yo LED's at 700-750 milliamps and those fixture are 3ft of the water surface.

 

[scolley]

+1 to what stancfii said.

 

[rtparty]

Been a long time for me and halides, man they put out A LOT of heat lol. I am happy with the fixture though, so far, lol.

I might make a dumb blanket statement here, but I think it is something to do with the heat waves that the MH puts out as well. It is just like the sun, the natural environment.

LED puts out 0 heat. So in some ways, do you think our corals are a bit confused by LED'S? They see all the light, but feel no heat.

It is something like walking out in the snow, but feeling no cold.

Just a thought.

Seriously, will a mod please ban this troll?