Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Jerzey]

I made the transition from a FOWLR to a reef tank almost a year ago.... I never used MH or t5 so I can't compare growth/color.. But what I can say is I love my new cree light. In this hobby I've learned u better dip in your pockets once and do it right and get quality equipment or your gonna loose $ buying corals again and have to buy equipment twice.... Like a typical noob and jumping into starting my reef tank without proper knowledge I've bought many things twice from frags, to my first sea clone skimmer to 3 different led knockoff fixtures... My cree setup ran me quite a bit but corals are showing great color and growth... One of my first frags was a Duncan with one head she never opened up for me in 3 -4 months.. Grew extremely slow wit my knockoff leds but the past 12 weeks since starting my cree build she exploded and grew 6 heads... My milli frag doubled in size in 6 weeks.... That's progress! People can knock leds right now but leds are the future in this hobby n as they keep improving there only gone drop in price and become the "standard"... Light is crucial but if your parameters aren't in check no lighting system can save u... To many variables to keep blaming leds all the time! Make a long story short its your tank what works for you may not be what works for the next guy.

 

[AdamDeMamp]

I so want to pull the trigger and go back to halides but I'm on a tight budget and know my electrical bill will sky rocket. I run kessils and I love them but I run an sps tank and the color just isn't there.

I'm with you on this. I have MH's laying around, and might try them out for a few months on my new tank.

 

[nynick]

Did you run a chiller with your MH? When I switched to led my electricity went down with a whopping 3 bucks. It was for 2x250 and T5 btw.

 

[mikeatjac]

Wow just three dollars. Mine went down 50 plus. Maybe the rates are different in Florida!

 

[Allentown]

I so want to pull the trigger and go back to halides but I'm on a tight budget and know my electrical bill will sky rocket. I run kessils and I love them but I run an sps tank and the color just isn't there. I run a 110 gal acrylic 60-18-24" with three kessils 350 x2 and 1 360 All wides

I tried to run a scenario with light schedule to justify price of electricity. If I buy 3-250 watt radiums and run them for 6 hours that comes close to the 14 hours I run my kessils. However I'm not running the kessils at 100% power more like 6 hours per day. So I'm not going to get a savings as far as I can see.

Although I could get away with not supplementing the radiums I prob would want to is I could have more viewing time of the tank. I would go with t5 or vho acintics to supplement

Drop a couple 250w MHs pendants on using goosenecks, there is always room for more goosenecks. Leave the kessils and just run the MHs 3 hours a day and work out a schedule.

 

[Allentown]

The above is my plan if I run into your issue.

 

[JPMagyar]

Ok what would convince the non believers that a good LED is as good as MH . . .

So if an LED with a credible track record was sold with a preset that was proven to work, would you buy it?

The PAR levels Im getting are from 6 AI blues over a 180 gal tank. They are set at 51/70/72. It did take a while, nearly 14 months to find a color combination and intensity that looked good and the coral liked. I also found during that time that the higher I put the lights the better color became.I now run all my LEDs 18 in high. Since I had 3 400w MH over it before that things used to a pretty strong light so I only bleached a few pieces in the transition.

The cons -

1. I can't grow certain species of LPS under my radions to save my life. They bleach out and die. I've got no chalices, and brains suffer terribly in my tank. However, under a kessil 150 ocean blue in a pico tank, those exact same bleached brains recovered their deep, lustrous colours, so it's not LEDs per se, I think it's the power of the fixture and the colour blend that I have chosen to promote shallow water SPS growth and my own personal taste. I'm fine with that, this is not an LPS tank. If I wanted brilliant chalices and open brains, I would play around with the colour ratios until I found one that did not bleach them out but still looked good to me, but that's not what this tank is about.


2. SPS change colour under my lights. That's just a fact.

I, Joe Peck, have been an avowed LED hater from the beginning so I just want to be upfront and allow everyone to form their own impression of my thoughts with that fact in mind . . . however, I'd like to answer the question posted above which I think is the heart of the matter by restating what has already been said several times previously.

LEDs are not plug 'n play like T5 fixtures.

If and when a LED fixture comes to market that can be placed over an SPS tank with no thought of bleaching or changing color then I would go that route, but just look at the experiences of the two gentlemen I quoted above. Both use and enjoy their LEDs but both experienced either bleaching or color changes.


I have switched my tanks from PC to VHO to MH to 1000 watt MH to T5s, and grown frags by the 100s with neither bleaching or color change in my basic corals. Corals like Oregon Tort (which I sadly just lost after a decade), Cali Tort, Pink Birds nest, Garf Bonsai, Tyree Purple Monster, etc. The point is MH, T5, VHO, PC are all interchangeable and so long as one chooses similar power output the results will be similar with no death in your tank. This is simply not true for LEDs.


Can LEDs make an awesome SPS tank. Of course the answer is yes. Can a beginner take an LED light and duplicate a T5 tank like that shown above on page 50? No I don't think so.


So again the question was: What would make an LED hater accept LEDs?

and the answer is: LEDs that are plug 'n play for all SPS/LPS types?


I, for one, have not seen such an LED yet. Now having said that I will admit that I do believe in a hybrid solution and am betting my decade of hard work on said solution. I, Joe Peck, the avowed LED hater have ordered two Pacific Sun Pandora S2 fixtures. They combine 4 T5s with 3 75watt LED clusters.

In the last 5 years I have gone from

1) 4 x 400 watt MH + 4 x 110watt VHO

to

2) 4 x 250watt MH + 4 x 110watt VHO,

to

3) 16 x 54 watt T5 + 4 x 150watt MH

and, at the same time I have purchased and tried many differenct LED fixtures to try over my frag tank, and I have setup a 38 gallon tank for my daughter using an ATI T5 fixture.

The sum total of that experience has taught me that T5 lighting is simple efficient and effective, but has no shimmer and attempting to dim T5 can hurt lamp life or even lamp operation. LEDs on the other hand have great shimmer and ultimate controllability. If my light choice works out I will have lighting that runs on less than 700 watts as compared to my current lights that use almost 1500 watts, and I will still have shimmer but I will gain perfect sunrise/sunset and moonphase ability. To me this is the answer for which I have been waiting. The question remaining for me is will 8 T5 tubes be enough for my 48 x 48 tank. Personally I think it will be no problem, but we shall see :beer:


Anyways, lots of rambling on there just to say what's already been said above, but I couldn't help myself and I only hope someone thinks it is interesting!

 

[FlyPenFly]

My electric bill went from $450/month in the summer months on halides + coolers to $176 on T5HO. That wattage on the lights are about half of halides but cooling is where the real savings were. On LEDs I was around $150 so not much savings compared to T5. The best overall and most colorful growth is with T5 so far although it was great under all the lights I tried.

This is in NYC.

 

[Allentown]

If I ever decide to supplement with T5s a few hours a day would I use a single T5 or would you recommend a dual bulb fixture?

 

[power boat jim]

I, Joe Peck, have been an avowed LED hater from the beginning so I just want to be upfront and allow everyone to form their own impression of my thoughts with that fact in mind . . . however, I'd like to answer the question posted above which I think is the heart of the matter by restating what has already been said several times previously.

LEDs are not plug 'n play like T5 fixtures.

If and when a LED fixture comes to market that can be placed over an SPS tank with no thought of bleaching or changing color then I would go that route, but just look at the experiences of the two gentlemen I quoted above. Both use and enjoy their LEDs but both experienced either bleaching or color changes.


I have switched my tanks from PC to VHO to MH to 1000 watt MH to T5s, and grown frags by the 100s with neither bleaching or color change in my basic corals. Corals like Oregon Tort (which I sadly just lost after a decade), Cali Tort, Pink Birds nest, Garf Bonsai, Tyree Purple Monster, etc. The point is MH, T5, VHO, PC are all interchangeable and so long as one chooses similar power output the results will be similar with no death in your tank. This is simply not true for LEDs.


Can LEDs make an awesome SPS tank. Of course the answer is yes. Can a beginner take an LED light and duplicate a T5 tank like that shown above on page 50? No I don't think so.


So again the question was: What would make an LED hater accept LEDs?

and the answer is: LEDs that are plug 'n play for all SPS/LPS types?


I, for one, have not seen such an LED yet. Now having said that I will admit that I do believe in a hybrid solution and am betting my decade of hard work on said solution. I, Joe Peck, the avowed LED hater have ordered two Pacific Sun Pandora S2 fixtures. They combine 4 T5s with 3 75watt LED clusters.

In the last 5 years I have gone from

1) 4 x 400 watt MH + 4 x 110watt VHO

to

2) 4 x 250watt MH + 4 x 110watt VHO,

to

3) 16 x 54 watt T5 + 4 x 150watt MH

and, at the same time I have purchased and tried many differenct LED fixtures to try over my frag tank, and I have setup a 38 gallon tank for my daughter using an ATI T5 fixture.

The sum total of that experience has taught me that T5 lighting is simple efficient and effective, but has no shimmer and attempting to dim T5 can hurt lamp life or even lamp operation. LEDs on the other hand have great shimmer and ultimate controllability. If my light choice works out I will have lighting that runs on less than 700 watts as compared to my current lights that use almost 1500 watts, and I will still have shimmer but I will gain perfect sunrise/sunset and moonphase ability. To me this is the answer for which I have been waiting. The question remaining for me is will 8 T5 tubes be enough for my 48 x 48 tank. Personally I think it will be no problem, but we shall see :beer:


Anyways, lots of rambling on there just to say what's already been said above, but I couldn't help myself and I only hope someone thinks it is interesting!

Yes, It is interesting. It just emphasizes the point that I have always believed. You can use nearly any type of lighting and get excellent results. I have used them all and found MH to be the easiest. LEDs became a necessity here due to the heat they put into the room or I would probably still be using them. I would not go back to halides now since I have found a way to achieve as good and in some cases better results using the LEDs.

I dont know if anyone else noticed this or not but using LEDs has made me take a better look at water quality. It seems to me that as much as I hate testing water it has become more important to keep things as close to perfect as possible. THe closer I get to keeping water parameters stable and as close to optimum as possible the less the LEDs seem to have to do with any problems long term.

I am going through this right now. A couple corals looked a bit brown and Im thinking well maybe folks were right after a time coral under LED just wont survive, until I did an ALK test and found it at 5.2 and Ca was 620. Guess what after getting Akl and Ca back to 7.8 and 420 things look better then ever. So I can say with confidence if problems come up after running LEDs for a year or so without previous problems its probably not the LEDs.

 

[Allentown]

So I can say with confidence if problems come up after running LEDs for a year or so without previous problems its probably not the LEDs.

But it's almost a guarantee that it's the LEDs that will be blamed all over the forums, often with the person swearing they didn't do anything different. I to just witnessed an unexpected precipitous drop in both alk and ca with a tank under Leds and that with no entrusting corals. I don't blame the lights, I had a coralline bloom and had added 5% water that wasnt treated and had just refreshed my carbon and started gfo. I'm sure I'd have seen issues if I'd had sps, not the lights fault though.

 

[Jeremy B.]

I dont know if anyone else noticed this or not but using LEDs has made me take a better look at water quality. It seems to me that as much as I hate testing water it has become more important to keep things as close to perfect as possible. THe closer I get to keeping water parameters stable and as close to optimum as possible the less the LEDs seem to have to do with any problems long term.

Bingo! I can't begin to explain how many times I've told hobbyists that LED's do work great, because in all honesty they really do, there is just much less margin for error in all of the other variables of your tank once you get them dialed in.

 

[ifarmer]

been there, done that
spent 500 on new LED last year. After 12 months using it. I went back to T5 and never look back to LED again (maybe down down down the road).
Very few that have good success with LED in long term though.

 

[jda]

So you are saying that LEDs, when properly dialed in, do something to the tank or coral that make them less tolerant of other parameters that they would be with other light sources? What do they do (or don't do) that makes this so?

 

[FlyPenFly]

Yes, the LEDs are really mean to all the coral.

 

[meshwheel]

You know, I wonder if the people who keep stating led's are not plug n play like led fixtures own a PAR meter? The ones I installed on two customers tanks(reefbreeders) both had extremely positive results. No bleaching events, just better color all the way around.
Now these where not SPS tanks. So maybe thats the difference??? Just curious as to why people are having problems.....

 

[Jeremy B.]

So you are saying that LEDs, when properly dialed in, do something to the tank or coral that make them less tolerant of other parameters that they would be with other light sources? What do they do (or don't do) that makes this so?

All I'm saying is that from my experiences (with just about every major LED out there) is that they are a little less forgiving than a metal halide setup for example. For example, an A. lokani that may do great at either the bottom or the top of the aquascape under the halides, might only do well at the bottom of that same system under the LED's. With that being the case it really does help to keep all of your parameters spot-on and dialed in that much more on a very consistent basis. A small fluctuation in parameters (any params for that matter) might cause more of a color loss under one type of lighting versus another type is all. This isn't just with LED's either, I've experienced the same type of things when comparing other forms of lighting as well.

Again, this is just speaking very generally, and by no way am I saying that LED's are not a very capable lighting solution, because they certainly are! I do have experience with having great success under many different LED's myself, and am still running quite a few of those today.

 

[shred5]

There's give and take with all types of lighting.. One has better colors ( wider spectrum) and looks more natural and one is energy efficient. For that efficiency there is a cost or go t-5 which is right in the middle a little bit of both worlds. I have run all three.. Right now I run a two t-5 tanks and one tank with leds,
The led tank is tied to the same sump as one of the t-5 tanks and is the exact same tank.

One problem with leds is most people run them too blue because they love to watch the corals fluoresce but this leads to brown out in allot of corals. They will grow fast but loose their pigments.

 

[dppitone]

The problem I'm having: One of our tanks is a 90 gallon of LPS, zoas and mushrooms, with one 250 watt 14 k in the center 10" off the surface, which covers everything very well. To switch to LEDs creates a coverage question - apparently I have to have two smaller fixtures, or one long 48" fixture like the reefbreeders, to cover the tank. They don't have the same dispersal as the MH with reflector, so almost every inch lengthwise needs an LED set over it. In this case, the watts for the LED setup is about the same as the single 250 MH I use.

Where heat isn't a problem for us, the only savings is not replacing the MH bulb every year, which for us is $30. The thing I like about the LED is the controllers and dimming thru sunrise and sunset. Is that enough to make the big investment? Especially when MHs have ballasts/moguls/reflectors have almost no value now - a used setup can be had for $75 with bulb.

 

[power boat jim]

So you are saying that LEDs, when properly dialed in, do something to the tank or coral that make them less tolerant of other parameters that they would be with other light sources? What do they do (or don't do) that makes this so?

I dont know what the difference is or if there even is one, but after spending most of my time adjusting intensities, color schemes and durations I paid far less attention to water quality then usual. This last month I went and did some water tests and found my alk at 5.2 and Ca at 650.

Now that the water parameters have been back in line for a couple weeks this tank has never looked better under any lighting system. The growth on my tenuous (Sp) red planet and several others I dont know the name of have been noticeable in just a week or so.

All I am saying is given very good water quality and a dialed in LED system There should be no reason you cant be successful.

I can ask the same question of those who have not had success with LEDs, what is different about my tank that allows me to have success with LEDs and others cant? I have no magic. What am I doing that others are not?