MedRed
Active member
You obviously have a vested interest in LEDs and the Mitras especially. I wouldn't expect an open and unbiased opinion from a vendor with $ on the line. That being said, I'm 100% interested in seeing a Mitras fixture in person.
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
You obviously have a vested interest in LEDs and the Mitras especially. I wouldn't expect an open and unbiased opinion from a vendor with $ on the line. That being said, I'm 100% interested in seeing a Mitras fixture in person.
rogerwilco357
Active member
still waiting on the led's to hit that mile marker like Metal Halides have and the T5's like the Powermodules . I have seen the best growth with metals and color from the T5's . Now I have read that AI is putting out that new led with 52 led's the hydra 52 with more coverage and with uv...sounds promising ...but still waiting another year ....
AQD_ottawa
New member
Yes of course I do, look at my signature, but if you read back through all my posts on here I have made clear my input as a hobbyist, i only highlight the Mitras when it is brought to me as a subject or using it as an example. My input in this case was to highlight a good tank under LED is achievable.
If you want to see one let me know, but not saying more than that on this thread as I wish to stay as a hobbyist.
Ben_1313
New member
Looks pretty lifelike to me. Maybe you've never seen a nice clam from the top?
Seriously, you're acting like LEDs should have killed everything in his tank by now.
This thread has changed from some good speculation on why LEDs weren't working on some tanks to baseless bashing of people with success stories with them, but this kind of witch hunt has always hurt progress.
This thread holds no educational information for me anymore and I suggest we all rethink what this thread is trying to accomplish and doing it in a constructive way.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
I have personal experience with both Halides and currently LEDs on my 40Br Mixed reef tank. My current tank is a transfer from another state when I moved here, in Florida, a year ago.
I actually had the 120w LEDs that was Chinese made. It grew corals on my 40Br, but was pretty dim to me versus the 4 X T5's I had previously. After moving, I ended up purchasing, from a reefer friend, a Hamilton Cayan pendant.. a 250W HQI! Obviously, after about six weeks of acclimation, the PAR/energy was there. You would think I would be happy, but something just wasn't there. Using a Phoenix 14K, I just wanted a little more blue. The corals were super happy, but I wasn't. I wanted dimming, I wanted variation through out the day to better copy nature.
I decided to finally make my own LED fixture via RapidLED. It was 34 LEDs (about 1:1 Cool White:Royal Blue) plus two Moonlights. I stupidly thought I was veteran enough in reefing to know how best to acclimate my corals. Everything was fairly well for the first few months.. but I still felt the color was... wrong. Growth was there (I got so dang lucky when I determined percentages of intensity).
I decided to change out some of the LEDs (Some Cool Whites for Neutrals, and some Royal Blues for Blues) plus removed one of the moonlights for an added LED, giving me 35 LEDs. I was finally happy about the color! It was pleasing to my eyes and accordingly it's supposedly great for the corals (Spectrum-wise). That's when stupidity trumped my luck. I lowered my intensity of the LEDs thinking there was just too much intensity. My corals started to bleach some and one of my corals a mid-level (Of the tank) Monti caps was just never happy.
I finally got hold of a PAR meter (I'm aware of the debate on these, especially with LEDs.. but it's far better than nothing). I compared my readings with my friend's LEDs, whose tank looked great) and realized, to my horror, I wasn't blasting my corals with light... they didn't have enough light!
I finally corrected the intensities, and now I feel like I have it right. Time will tell, of course, and we'll see what this month brings for results.
Personally, I like Halides a lot... all you really need to do is acclimate properly. LEDs, on the other hand, require a lot more careful work. You have FAR more options with LEDs, but at a cost both financially and physically. I feel like those who tried LEDs and failed either has bad equipment, or the hurdle of LED use was too much. It's not that people aren't capable of using them.. it's more that the sheer complexity of LED-use is FAR more grand than both hobbyists and companies lead them to be. Think about the number of LEDs being offered, than add the ability to use optics, and then dimming! Let's not even start with LED Multi-Chips! You've got a huge number of factors at play here and from what I have read about people's experience with LEDs over the years, I just feel like not nearly enough people have grasped at this complexity.
My long $0.02 opinion...
I actually had the 120w LEDs that was Chinese made. It grew corals on my 40Br, but was pretty dim to me versus the 4 X T5's I had previously. After moving, I ended up purchasing, from a reefer friend, a Hamilton Cayan pendant.. a 250W HQI! Obviously, after about six weeks of acclimation, the PAR/energy was there. You would think I would be happy, but something just wasn't there. Using a Phoenix 14K, I just wanted a little more blue. The corals were super happy, but I wasn't. I wanted dimming, I wanted variation through out the day to better copy nature.
I decided to finally make my own LED fixture via RapidLED. It was 34 LEDs (about 1:1 Cool White:Royal Blue) plus two Moonlights. I stupidly thought I was veteran enough in reefing to know how best to acclimate my corals. Everything was fairly well for the first few months.. but I still felt the color was... wrong. Growth was there (I got so dang lucky when I determined percentages of intensity).
I decided to change out some of the LEDs (Some Cool Whites for Neutrals, and some Royal Blues for Blues) plus removed one of the moonlights for an added LED, giving me 35 LEDs. I was finally happy about the color! It was pleasing to my eyes and accordingly it's supposedly great for the corals (Spectrum-wise). That's when stupidity trumped my luck. I lowered my intensity of the LEDs thinking there was just too much intensity. My corals started to bleach some and one of my corals a mid-level (Of the tank) Monti caps was just never happy.
I finally got hold of a PAR meter (I'm aware of the debate on these, especially with LEDs.. but it's far better than nothing). I compared my readings with my friend's LEDs, whose tank looked great) and realized, to my horror, I wasn't blasting my corals with light... they didn't have enough light!
I finally corrected the intensities, and now I feel like I have it right. Time will tell, of course, and we'll see what this month brings for results.
Personally, I like Halides a lot... all you really need to do is acclimate properly. LEDs, on the other hand, require a lot more careful work. You have FAR more options with LEDs, but at a cost both financially and physically. I feel like those who tried LEDs and failed either has bad equipment, or the hurdle of LED use was too much. It's not that people aren't capable of using them.. it's more that the sheer complexity of LED-use is FAR more grand than both hobbyists and companies lead them to be. Think about the number of LEDs being offered, than add the ability to use optics, and then dimming! Let's not even start with LED Multi-Chips! You've got a huge number of factors at play here and from what I have read about people's experience with LEDs over the years, I just feel like not nearly enough people have grasped at this complexity.
My long $0.02 opinion...
Last edited:
AQD_ottawa
New member
I feel like those who tried LEDs and failed either has bad equipment, or the hurdle of LED use was too much. It's not that people aren't capable of using them.. it's more that the sheer complexity of LED-use is FAR more grand than both hobbyists and companies lead them to be. Think about the number of LEDs being offered, than add the ability to use optics, and then dimming! You've got a huge number of factors at play here and from what I have read about people's experience with LEDs over the years, I just feel like not nearly enough people have grasp at this complexity.
My long $0.02 opinion...
We sing from the same hymn sheet.
we sing from the same hymn sheet.
+2
MedRed
Active member
This statement is completely out of left field. I had sol blues and radions over my tank and didn't have any coral deaths, so why would I postulate LEDs should kill everything? I still have an AI nano over my tank. As I am with my own tank, I'm very critical and meticulous. For years, people have tried to pass of various applications of reefing with a much higher level of success than reality. LEDs definitely fall in that category. I don't have animosity towards LEDs. I just know the technology isn't there yet. I need proof that it's ready and that proof not being expertise in photoshop.
also, I have clams in my tank. I am referring to the side view. Things like clams, coralline, and even the sand bed don't swing that much in color under the same light unless the spectrum is different or there's a difference in post processing.
AQD_ottawa
New member
I think to say the technology is not there yet is a bit broad and not in my view accurate, again it comes down to what you have tried and experienced.
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
Until LEDs are plug and play, they will be never be "there" for the hobby as a whole. That's just the cold hard truth.
RC is a drop in the bucket when it comes to the hobby. The hobbyists on here are okay with being beta testers and funding the research for these companies. We are okay with inept software at the beginning. We are okay trying to dial every little thing in to make our tanks perfect in our eyes.
The rest of the hobby isn't okay with any of that. They want to plug the light in and leave it alone. They don't want to buy $1200 lights and a $400 PAR meter to make sure that the over priced lights don't fry their tank. They don't want to spend 2+ hours messing around with Wi-Fi and other needless things on their aquarium lights.
I fall somewhere in between all of that. LEDs made this hobby a lot more complex and time consuming than I wanted. It made for a lot of second guessing and questioning for me. It took the fun out of it all.
I've helped a few companies with their lights and tested them over my own tanks. I've also spent good money on some top LED systems only to be frustrated and sell them off.
So until LEDs have an accepted middle ground amongst companies, they will never be fully "there" for the hobby as a whole.
HurricaneSystem
Member
Very, very well said.
Electrobes, I understand where you are coming from and on a thought or two, I agree. However, I had the best fixtures money can buy when it comes to LED. I have nothing left to prove, lose, etc. in this LED conversation so I will tell you what I think.
I said before, I still own one of the old 120w Chinese fixtures that is on/off , blue/white and it did in fact grow coral. The coral that is grew were softies. My LPS survived somewhat, but then started to fall off gradually.
The Radion Pro has the best approach at LED and it works to an extent. You choose a pre-defined spectrum, which is about spot on, then you choose your intensity. Now the intensity is what can get you in trouble. The Radion Pro is the light I could go to and it would bring all my corals back to looking good, however I did not have SPS at the time.
The Kessil A360's are great fixtures. I just think it would take a while for everything to get used to those in your tank. If I had to choose another LED tomorrow, it would probably be the Kessils. They make my wife sick with their "shimmer" though. So that is probably out, lol.
The AI Vega Color......Made very well, everything works like it should, but they are the worst LED's that I experienced, hands down. Everything died and I wasn't cranking those up either.
The Mitras 6200. It is the closest "look" to metal halide that I have seen. I say look, not performance. Now I did in fact test PAR on the fixture, it does spread out the PAR quite well. However, it still suffers from that PAR drop off that all LED's I have tested have. It is not consistent like MH.
I switched from a Radion Pro to the Mitras, everything looked very good for about a week then they started to drop off again. I don't blame this on myself as I DO have a PAR meter and I was adjusting accordingly. SPS lost all color.
I put the Hamilton Cayman Sun, 400W 14K on the tank and everything is doing great and my delicate Acro Speciosa has colored back to a nice green. All corals are thriving and growing.
The Radion Pro is about there. The software is horrible, sometimes it works, often times it does not. They need to hire some GOOD developers and get the bugs out of that because the same issues have been going on for at least a year and they sweep it under the carpet.
The Mitras is rudamentary in their delivery of the software, but the software works. It has some minor annoyances, but it works about 90% better than the Ecotech lol.
In the end, I agree that LED is just not quite there yet. I absolutely love LED's and I was one of the first people to go to LED'S a long time ago. I would like to give them another shot in the future. It is just really hard to have your tank doing great and use it as a test environment as someone said. That is a very true statement.
For now, there just isn't any comparison to keeping coral. Will LED make your corals "pop" in color and look great for a while, yea. It won't last though and about everything you have will be dead.
I used to put down the reef breeders and the Apollo Reef fixtures as being cheap. Seeing some of the new ones with their blue/white spectrum and ability to be tuned by Apex, has me interested. I think the Chinese fixtures have come a long way and I hope they continue to.
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
Hurricanesystem - The big difference from our experiences, I believe, is what LEDs we used. Aside from the first entry Chinese LED fixture, I've gone DIY. I admit that my main reason for not going with an already made fixture was my worry about how hard it would be to change anything in a pre-made fixture (Noting the fact that I was still leary about LEDs).
I have just about no experience with pre-made LED fixtures. I've only personally witnessed (Long term LED use being about a year's progression) on a local friend's tank an Evergrow's fixture, which to me did well for his corals (SPS, LPS, and two softuies... in an 180G tank).
Without a doubt, I am not completely sold on LEDs on a personal level. Sure, I've seen some great tanks posted claiming it's success on LEDs, but until I personally experience it for myself, for at least a full year, I'll always be in "waiting" mode. I sincerely hope it does work out well, but I'll always have my Halide pendant lying in wait, as a back up plan.
I have just about no experience with pre-made LED fixtures. I've only personally witnessed (Long term LED use being about a year's progression) on a local friend's tank an Evergrow's fixture, which to me did well for his corals (SPS, LPS, and two softuies... in an 180G tank).
Without a doubt, I am not completely sold on LEDs on a personal level. Sure, I've seen some great tanks posted claiming it's success on LEDs, but until I personally experience it for myself, for at least a full year, I'll always be in "waiting" mode. I sincerely hope it does work out well, but I'll always have my Halide pendant lying in wait, as a back up plan.
power boat jim
Well-known member
I cant believe there are still people around who beat this drum. That is so far from the truth its not even funny. Maybe everything you have would be dead. After 2 plus year with LEDs I am having to suppliment my calcium reactor with two part dosing just to keep up with the demands of the tank.
LEDs are more then sufficient and if done properly can match most any MH tank for growth color and especially coral longevity.
asylumdown
New member
My 2 cents:
I've used gen 1 radion pros since I started my tank up on April 15, 2012. They're the only light any of the SPS in there have been under while in my care, and the only light *most* of the LPS in my system have been under.
I think the question of whether or not LEDs are capable or growing beautiful corals long term is well and truly answered at this point:
That's zero re-touching in photoshop because I couldn't operate that program if my life depended on it. I chose that one because it's the closest to real life I've ever been able to get in white balance using my iPhone (the cabinet actually is white in real life), but I'd say the camera sensor still 'blue washes' things compared to how it looks in real life.
However, that's not to say LEDs aren't without their challenges or shortcomings, but it's just like anything, they have strengths and they have weaknesses, and whether or not you decide to go with them is really a matter of personal taste. For me, I wanted something that fluidly changes brightness and colour tone over the course of the day. My tank has a sunrise, mid day, evening, and sunset. It makes the tank dynamic and no coral in it looks the same for the whole day. I love that feature. They're also completely enclosed in an cabinet so heat was an issue and meant halides were off the table. The grow coral very well, but yes, they absolutely have an effect on coral colour. But the kicker is that coral colour and how we value it is 100% subjective, so if you don't like what LEDs do to certain corals, don't use them. But that's 100% a personal preference, and not a universal statement about the worth or effectiveness of the platform.
The cons -
1. I can't grow certain species of LPS under my radions to save my life. They bleach out and die. I've got no chalices, and brains suffer terribly in my tank. However, under a kessil 150 ocean blue in a pico tank, those exact same bleached brains recovered their deep, lustrous colours, so it's not LEDs per se, I think it's the power of the fixture and the colour blend that I have chosen to promote shallow water SPS growth and my own personal taste. I'm fine with that, this is not an LPS tank. If I wanted brilliant chalices and open brains, I would play around with the colour ratios until I found one that did not bleach them out but still looked good to me, but that's not what this tank is about.
2. SPS change colour under my lights. That's just a fact. It's likely a combination of my lighting and nutrient regime, but some corals that look awesome under T5s do not look awesome under my tank. In the same breath, some corals that I have received as 'throw-away' specimens from the LFS (grown under halides or T5s) that no one would have ever bought have turned out to be complete show-stoppers in my tank. Moral of the story you simply cannot make a blanket statement of "all LEDs do X to all corals". That will never be true.
Do those cons outweigh the reasons I like LEDs for this tank at this time? nope. Will I try something different on a future tank? probably, I'd like to try everything!
And just like LEDs have a differential effect on coral colour, so do Halides vs T5, or different colour temperatures of halide bulbs, or different combinations of T5 bulbs. It's not like T5s and Halides are off on their own with identical results that everyone universally agrees are 'better' and LEDs are off in a different corner altogether, every lighting system produces different results with different personal tastes dictating what individuals prefer. There's a lot of factors that go in to choosing a light, and how corals respond to them is only one element of a complex decision. If for you the only metric you go by is having corals that look exactly like corals grown under a high-end T5 fixture, it's disingenuous of you to switch to LED then call the platform a failure when the corals morph to look the way corals look under that particular blend of LEDs. Same goes for people who think the 'best' looking coral is one grown under X brand of halide at X colour temperature. If that's your Big-O, then you're pre-disposed to be disappointed in LEDs because yes, they will look different.
My decision making process includes more than just a comparison to particular species of corals under particular lighting regimes - aesthetics of the whole tank are important to me, for example, so there's no way on earth you'd ever catch me hanging a hideous boxy reflector over something if you could see it from anywhere, so what the corals would look like under it is entirely a moot point.
Where I think LEDs have room to grow is for the people who make them to figure out exactly what it is about them that makes growing certain species of corals under certain brands of lights such a challenge. I'd like to be able to have chalices in the same tank as my SPS the way people with halides or T5s can without needing to mess with the program in a way that could compromise my SPS, so there's definitely room to improve. But overall I wouldn't switch for that reason, not now and not on this tank at least.
I've used gen 1 radion pros since I started my tank up on April 15, 2012. They're the only light any of the SPS in there have been under while in my care, and the only light *most* of the LPS in my system have been under.
I think the question of whether or not LEDs are capable or growing beautiful corals long term is well and truly answered at this point:
That's zero re-touching in photoshop because I couldn't operate that program if my life depended on it. I chose that one because it's the closest to real life I've ever been able to get in white balance using my iPhone (the cabinet actually is white in real life), but I'd say the camera sensor still 'blue washes' things compared to how it looks in real life.
However, that's not to say LEDs aren't without their challenges or shortcomings, but it's just like anything, they have strengths and they have weaknesses, and whether or not you decide to go with them is really a matter of personal taste. For me, I wanted something that fluidly changes brightness and colour tone over the course of the day. My tank has a sunrise, mid day, evening, and sunset. It makes the tank dynamic and no coral in it looks the same for the whole day. I love that feature. They're also completely enclosed in an cabinet so heat was an issue and meant halides were off the table. The grow coral very well, but yes, they absolutely have an effect on coral colour. But the kicker is that coral colour and how we value it is 100% subjective, so if you don't like what LEDs do to certain corals, don't use them. But that's 100% a personal preference, and not a universal statement about the worth or effectiveness of the platform.
The cons -
1. I can't grow certain species of LPS under my radions to save my life. They bleach out and die. I've got no chalices, and brains suffer terribly in my tank. However, under a kessil 150 ocean blue in a pico tank, those exact same bleached brains recovered their deep, lustrous colours, so it's not LEDs per se, I think it's the power of the fixture and the colour blend that I have chosen to promote shallow water SPS growth and my own personal taste. I'm fine with that, this is not an LPS tank. If I wanted brilliant chalices and open brains, I would play around with the colour ratios until I found one that did not bleach them out but still looked good to me, but that's not what this tank is about.
2. SPS change colour under my lights. That's just a fact. It's likely a combination of my lighting and nutrient regime, but some corals that look awesome under T5s do not look awesome under my tank. In the same breath, some corals that I have received as 'throw-away' specimens from the LFS (grown under halides or T5s) that no one would have ever bought have turned out to be complete show-stoppers in my tank. Moral of the story you simply cannot make a blanket statement of "all LEDs do X to all corals". That will never be true.
Do those cons outweigh the reasons I like LEDs for this tank at this time? nope. Will I try something different on a future tank? probably, I'd like to try everything!
And just like LEDs have a differential effect on coral colour, so do Halides vs T5, or different colour temperatures of halide bulbs, or different combinations of T5 bulbs. It's not like T5s and Halides are off on their own with identical results that everyone universally agrees are 'better' and LEDs are off in a different corner altogether, every lighting system produces different results with different personal tastes dictating what individuals prefer. There's a lot of factors that go in to choosing a light, and how corals respond to them is only one element of a complex decision. If for you the only metric you go by is having corals that look exactly like corals grown under a high-end T5 fixture, it's disingenuous of you to switch to LED then call the platform a failure when the corals morph to look the way corals look under that particular blend of LEDs. Same goes for people who think the 'best' looking coral is one grown under X brand of halide at X colour temperature. If that's your Big-O, then you're pre-disposed to be disappointed in LEDs because yes, they will look different.
My decision making process includes more than just a comparison to particular species of corals under particular lighting regimes - aesthetics of the whole tank are important to me, for example, so there's no way on earth you'd ever catch me hanging a hideous boxy reflector over something if you could see it from anywhere, so what the corals would look like under it is entirely a moot point.
Where I think LEDs have room to grow is for the people who make them to figure out exactly what it is about them that makes growing certain species of corals under certain brands of lights such a challenge. I'd like to be able to have chalices in the same tank as my SPS the way people with halides or T5s can without needing to mess with the program in a way that could compromise my SPS, so there's definitely room to improve. But overall I wouldn't switch for that reason, not now and not on this tank at least.
MedRed
Active member
That's just a blue tank. I'm not saying you can't grow corals under LEDs...you can. Just like Vivid aquarium's 800 Gallon with half Radions and half MH, corals on both sides are doing well. With few exceptions, the color of the corals on the MH side look better than the corals on the LED side.
Is there any SoCal reefer with a newer LED setup that wouldn't mind a visitor checking out your tank?
Is there any SoCal reefer with a newer LED setup that wouldn't mind a visitor checking out your tank?
Am I the only one that at this point gets the feeling that unless LED fixtures herald in the second coming of Christ and simultaneously spit out 100 dollar bills while growing corals like weeds....some people are not going to be happy.
And cook dinner and clean the house and do your work for you. They definately need to be able to do at least 2 out of 3 of the things i just lised as well. :fun4:
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
From my experience I think the true proof is in the results. Go around the web and look at the tank of the month threads, don't look at what the lighting is if possible. See what truly looks amazing, and note those tanks. Then look at what lighting was used. Thats how I made my choice away from LEDs to T5s. I struggled for a long time, thinking about dropping over 2 grand on Mitras, six months after dropping $1500+ on Ecoxotic cannons and Par 38 spotlights.
There is a lot of emotion tied up in a purchase this large, and everyone wants to defend what they chose, especially when they buy something new. That was why I looked at tanks and let the tanks tell me what lighting they preferred.
I've had the 8 bulb ATI sunpower for almost a year and couldn't be happier - and the prices on the bulbs are dropping. I just saw the blue plus 39 watt bulbs are down to 16 bucks so I stocked up. Change out every nine months cost will be about $145. If you count the roughly $850 for the fixture and first set of bulbs I bought as a package, then add the cost for each changeout, it will take about 7 years to equal the cost I would have incurred buying the Mitras. If anyone here is still using a first generation Mitras setup in 7 years I would be very surprised....
There is a lot of emotion tied up in a purchase this large, and everyone wants to defend what they chose, especially when they buy something new. That was why I looked at tanks and let the tanks tell me what lighting they preferred.
I've had the 8 bulb ATI sunpower for almost a year and couldn't be happier - and the prices on the bulbs are dropping. I just saw the blue plus 39 watt bulbs are down to 16 bucks so I stocked up. Change out every nine months cost will be about $145. If you count the roughly $850 for the fixture and first set of bulbs I bought as a package, then add the cost for each changeout, it will take about 7 years to equal the cost I would have incurred buying the Mitras. If anyone here is still using a first generation Mitras setup in 7 years I would be very surprised....
AQD_ottawa
New member
well to add some fun into this thread as I said a few pages ago, i would start a "can a mitras grow a sorry looking SPS test"
well here are my test subjects both came from the bottom of a friend of mines old tank, he was not even aware the bit of life left in the stag horn even had polyps let alone colour.
Just for fun lets see what the Mitras can do with these two in the next month.
Oh and here is the test bed (not the best shot I might add)
well here are my test subjects both came from the bottom of a friend of mines old tank, he was not even aware the bit of life left in the stag horn even had polyps let alone colour.
Just for fun lets see what the Mitras can do with these two in the next month.
Oh and here is the test bed
(not the best shot I might add)
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