Aqualund
New member
Thanks Brian! Good Job!
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
Thanks Brian! Good Job!
This one puzzles me, as do the comments about some needing chillers while others in similar circumstances do not. The devil is in the details I suspect.
14K is a colour perception, not a specific mix of spectrum and this will eventually give LED a clear advantage. At some point it will be easy to tweek the perceived colour of an LED light without affecting the part of the spectrum responsible for growth or reflectance. Pacific Sun may already be there with its most recent Hyperion fixture.
There are economies of scale to be had if you can produce one light to meet different colour temperature preferences.
There are also energy savings to be had by eliminating parts of the spectrum of no value for growth or colouration. Also, energy prices seem to only go one way and that will continue to favour LED.
Even when (if?) there is a clear advantage to LED, some people will continue to prefer other lighting technologies just because, so I don't see Halides disappearing from the hobby any time soon.
James77
Team RC
Yes, it really is determined by your setup and area/ambient temperature. But halides=chiller is not correct. Most people that run halides do not need chillers...though using halides can require a chiller under some circumstances. LEDs will never require a chiller.
I go for a certain look. I like a bright white color with very strong blue in it.....ie Radiums on a magnetic ballast.
Were that attainable( the one comparison I saw was still off, but those are internet pics as well), and the cost of getting that were not at the level where I need to calculate it out in years......then I would have it.
Aqualund
New member
James77...if you are at all handy with electronics...like connecting wires together...you might want to look at the Lumia 5.2 for a DIY solution. You would literally be able to make it any color temp you want.
I ordered 25 of these to start for my store and they will be here thursday. I will gladly post pictures of the build and the resulting color when they are up. They are no different than what I have already been doing for months on my own tank...they are just better built.
All together I think their cost comes in just under $200 per 24x24 area. I can be more specific on that once they are in and I see what the par is.
I ordered 25 of these to start for my store and they will be here thursday. I will gladly post pictures of the build and the resulting color when they are up. They are no different than what I have already been doing for months on my own tank...they are just better built.
All together I think their cost comes in just under $200 per 24x24 area. I can be more specific on that once they are in and I see what the par is.
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
Once again, you have provided no facts here. I want to see cold hard numbers that metal halides are "gone" and "dead". I am not trying to come off as argumentative or wanting a fight. That is not my intention at all. I don't come here to RC to fight and argue. I come to discuss things with fellow reefers and friends. I am just here trying to learn as much as I can. If I knew everything in this hobby, I wouldn't be here. It wouldn't be fun anymore. :lol2:
I just don't like seeing people claim THEIR opinion as fact when there is no actual data to prove what they are stating. James posted a quote from one of the most reputable individuals in this hobby. Premium Aquatics has always been honest and unbiased whenever I talked to them. They aren't the only vendor I have heard this from.
Now if I may answer some of your "proof":
You talk to a few vendors and then think metal halides are top sellers????? When those vendors are some of the largest in the industry and are reputable, yes I trust them more than a random guy on here spewing nonsense. (Honestly, not pointing fingers here.)
They are not. Everything is pushing them out.
Let's see your numbers to prove this. Remember, Reef Central is a tiny portion of the hobby. I don't recall who told me this but they figure that only 10% of the Saltwater hobbysists frequent this site. I know my local club is around 7-800 members strong and I rarely see more than a dozen of them visit here.
Why: Hmmmmm lets see:
1. Rising electricity costs Mine haven't moved in nearly 10 years. We still pay about .09 kW/h here in Utah.
2. Bulb replacement costs Negligible. $100 a year is a drop in the bucket when people are paying that for 1" frag of Supertastic Lemondae SPS frags.
3. Chiller needed many times to use them I ran a 150w halide 5" off the water on a 24g tank. I didn't need a chiller ever. Not even when Utah was hitting 100+ in the summer. With my current fixture, my temp doesn't move at all.
4. Eco/Green babies In a hobby where over half the fish captured never see the store, we aren't exactly a "green" community.
5. Very little adjustability. You want to change the color........change the bulb! Why should I have to constantly change the color if I like what I have? Go see a couple tanks in person and you know what you like. Problem solved.
6. Expensive reflectors to make them more efficient
I believe they make them more EFFECTIVE, not more efficient. A metal halide or T5 bulb has the same efficiency (measured in how much light is produced per watt of energy used) whether a reflector is used or not. They become more effective (light being directed toward the tank) with a reflector. Same can be said for LEDs.
And do I need to list more????
Up to you really.
LED's
1. Much less electricity Super broad statement here. I bet I am using less with my current setup than I would with an all LED setup. Could be wrong though as I've never cared to truly measure.
2. No bulb changes Sure there are. An LED prematurely dies and you go spend $3-4 to replace it. It is called maintenance and every light needs it. People are also replacing fixtures at an alarming rate.
3. Full adjustability on the fly. No bulb changing and guessing. The guess work is gone!!!!! So everyone is buying the stock configuration on these Chinese LED fixtures? No one is changing a single LED to try for a better spectrum? Hmmm, didn't know that.
4. No chiller needed Broad statement again. I have found pumps to be the biggest culprit of heat because they run 24/7/365. Chillers may be needed even though LEDs have been employed.
5. No reflectors to change or add that are 100+ dollars Optics? TIR Wide Angle Lenses? Really? I have never replaced a reflector on any of my systems actually. Once again, maintenance on any system will help.
6. Eco Friendlier then halides. Less carbon footprint....maybe....still debating this one. I have heard that making LEDs isn't green at all. Could it be "greener" than halides or T5s? Sure but that is extremely tough to calculate.
The dam T5's you bought have led's in them!!!! Well, technically the fixture has LEDs. My T5 tubes don't. :lol2:
Why not halides like before?????????
Because I believe a T5/LED combo is the best of both worlds. I actually ran LEDs for 18 months before drawing my final conclusions. Alone, they weren't my favorite. I have always loved the soft light that T5s produce. LEDs are very harsh to me. Halides can be harsh as well in the wrong setup.
Happy Reefing!
This may help, from a thread not long ago.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21865187&postcount=15
Aqualund
New member
My only contribution to either of your tit for tats back and forth is with regard to the chiller.
If you aren't needing a chiller it is because your central air is picking up the slack...and it probably does it more efficiently than a chiller would...especially for such a small tank. Metal halides are proven to put out more energy in heat than leds...this is not even debatable. what is debatable is if it has an effect on user A's tank....and if that effect is enough either way to elicit action or inaction.
There is an obvious sliding bar for cost to benefit ratio for all equipment and the particular user. However, this conversation has consistently dwelled on whether LEDs could produce the same results as MH.
The obvious and scientific answer is yes. The rest of it is anecdotal and up to the particular user.
Like I said...a lot of people here that are late to the convo need to read the first 30 or so pages...otherwise this is just cyclical.
If you aren't needing a chiller it is because your central air is picking up the slack...and it probably does it more efficiently than a chiller would...especially for such a small tank. Metal halides are proven to put out more energy in heat than leds...this is not even debatable. what is debatable is if it has an effect on user A's tank....and if that effect is enough either way to elicit action or inaction.
There is an obvious sliding bar for cost to benefit ratio for all equipment and the particular user. However, this conversation has consistently dwelled on whether LEDs could produce the same results as MH.
The obvious and scientific answer is yes. The rest of it is anecdotal and up to the particular user.
Like I said...a lot of people here that are late to the convo need to read the first 30 or so pages...otherwise this is just cyclical.
James77
Team RC
Maybe they could read the subject and realize this was a thread for people that have switched back to halides after using LEDs.....not a MH vs LED thread. :spin3:
The reason I do not need a chiller is because the heat imparted from the halides does not require it in my circumstance. I do not blast the AC....I run it only for the couple hours I am in that part of the house.
Halides have infrared heat, LEDs do not or have tiny amounts. The heat does cause me some tiny problems maybe 5 or 6 days a year.....but the rest I actually welcome the heat from them. While one could argue that LEDs enable you to fine to the actual heating needs of the tank(they do), I am coming from the view that the "con" of heating is actually a good trade off considering I get a proven light source....that being a Radium bulb. There is no denying that is arguably one of the best bulbs in this hobby.
James77
Team RC
I am very handy, and I had built my own DIY LED setup 2.5 years ago...though that was at the point in LEDs where RB and CW were THE setup to have.
I do not need a different color temp, nor do I need dusk/dawn, or lightning. Radiums(and even a few other bulbs) provide all the spectrum I need. There is just no reason for me to use LEDs. I get nor substantial electric savings, the bill may actually go up in the winter as I do not gain heat from the MH. Bulb costs I could care less about, it is trivial in this hobby. But there will be a point someday where LEDs will surpass halides in pretty much every area...they are not at that point for me yet.
Aqualund
New member
so its not actually that its not attainable like you said:
It's more because you don't want it...which is fine. The only reason I posted the info about the Lumia 5.2 is because you suggested the radium color was not attainable with leds. I don't really care what you choose to have...thats all you. I care about what the noob reading this thread thinks about different lighting based on what people say.
James77
Team RC
I have yet to see it replicated by LEDs....is that better? I have seen one comparison thread or post( I believe it was here on RC) that said the Radiums had been duplicated, and I could still tell the difference. Granted, it was online photos, I did not see in person.
I also never said I did not want it....only that I am waiting for "to" to happen. I have nothing against LEDs, but I am not running open open arms to them just because they exist.
That is a reasonable position. Its not like we have an easily repeatable method nailed down to replicate a given colour temp. Heck, the industry is not even settled on the right/best spectrum mix.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
I pay .135/kwh
I will say that I do let my temp swing more than what people think is normal. In the summer, my temps swing to 84-85 in the summer. GreenBean(member here) has some good posts on temperature, and how having a fairly large swing is harmless assuming the animals are used to it. My tanks have actually never looked more happy than when they are at high temps...
Some of the more single minded LED proponents here remind me of a friend at work that kept trying to talk me into buying a motorcycle to "save money."
Even though my car was paid off and my drive to work is less than 5 miles, and I like being warm and safe when going to work, he kept insisting the gas savings would offset the 4-10k buying a motorcycle would cost, and that having a bike was inherently "cool".
There is a lot that goes into the cost of a tank, and the 312watts of T5 that run on my tank for 7 hours is only a small cost in my opinion. Besides that, as these new LED fixtures get better and better, the amount of watts they draw keeps rising. The new Radion Pro Generation 3 is 170 watts max now as an example. Yes I know most people wont run it at 100%, but some will. My LFS has an all-radion setup, one of the largest in the world, and they run theirs at 100% during the peak hours...
Physics are involved here, and while the newest LEDs are surpassing T5 and MH for lumens generated per watt, most till now were pretty close to the old technologies when it came to Lumen/watt. LEDs are better at focusing the light and eliminating reflector waste, and do not waste energy producing infrared light. They are not 3 or 4 times more efficient than MH or T5 though, even taking their benefits into account.
There is no free lunch - to get the coverage and intensity of T5 or MH, you will have to use at least 1/2 to 3/4 of the power of the T5 or MH you will replace. You will get less heat and ideally more controllability. Claims like I used to see that a "100w LED fixture was equivalent to a 400w MH" are ludicrous in my opinion.
mussel and hate
New member
The electricity savings on LED vs MH isn't in any way trivial. My total annual electricity bill for my LED array is less than the cost of a replacement MH bulb, that is significant to a working class stiff such as yours truly. I reef on a a shoestring budget, I've been doing so since the '80s and while I'm likely the exception I assure you it is doable.
The electrical savings on my light source don't factor in the savings on AC. Cooling is Watt per Watt more expensive than lighting so double the savings for the hot season and we might be close. Since I live in Canada so It's not like I run the AC for more than 3 months per year but if we're really analyzing comparative expenses of lighting technologies you can't dismiss this one. I can only Imagine how many more kWhrs you reefers in the south must burn to keep up with the heat output of MH lamps.
That is at best a tenuous analogy.
The electrical savings on my light source don't factor in the savings on AC. Cooling is Watt per Watt more expensive than lighting so double the savings for the hot season and we might be close. Since I live in Canada so It's not like I run the AC for more than 3 months per year but if we're really analyzing comparative expenses of lighting technologies you can't dismiss this one. I can only Imagine how many more kWhrs you reefers in the south must burn to keep up with the heat output of MH lamps.
That is at best a tenuous analogy.
If my halides are off my heaters are on. Led would not represent a cost savings to me electricity wise. My tank is in the basement and the temperature of the tank room is around 75 even in the summer.
I use 500 watts of MH now. I would require what 240 watts of LED to equal? It just isn't that big of a difference.
Not changing bulbs ever two years would be nice though.
Once LEDs are perfected I will consider them until then I am in no hurry. I have them on a frag tank and have had fairly poor luck with sps (1:1 probably need to change out the spectrum).
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
I think its a pretty good analogy myself - I didn't need a new car, I had one that worked quite well, but used more energy and required more expensive upkeep and maintenance. I have a T5 fixture now, that works quite well, but uses more energy, and requires an upkeep cost(replacing bulbs).
Coming up with hundreds or thousands of dollars now to replace the fixture because of energy savings makes no sense for me now just like coming up with thousands to buy a motorcycle then didn't make sense. I'm not anti-LED, but to reproduce what I have now just isn't going to happen.
With a rimless glass tank and my equipment in the garage, my tank is using the heaters constantly to keep the temp up. So much so that have lowered the tank temp to 77.8 to get it closer to ambient and insulated everything, even the skimmer. That's reality for me. In the summer I have no issues with temp, to keep the tank at no more than 80 a small fan blows across the sump and the house air conditioning keeps the house temp at 75, which makes sure the tank temp doesn't rise. I know the air conditioning is managing the heat that exits the light fixture but frankly I had a harder time with the heat from the first generation plasma TV/space heater that I replaced 2 years ago.
One thing that is cool about not having a LED fixture now is that they just keep on improving while I wait. When i am ready to pull the trigger on replacing the T5 fixture there should be some pretty sweet LED rigs to choose from
Oh, and Aqualund, I am very interested in seeing your LED build. I have a small frag tank that I wanted to light with LED and so I looked at DIY kits. I didn't want to spend a lot and in this case, i didn't even care if the fixture "looked DIY". The kits on some of the DIY sites seemed much more expensive than I expected, so I am honestly interested to see what you can build for less than $200.
Brian Crook
New member
Personally my suspicion is VHO, T5, and MH will be a thing of the past in a couple of years.
I simply cannot believe how far LEDs have come in the past 5 years.
I simply cannot believe how far LEDs have come in the past 5 years.
Tank2379
Active member
I would like to see those Pictures of Your Tanks with LED's especially the guys claiming they been doing an awesome job at growing if you had your tank up and running with the same LED's for 2 years or more by now your corals should be growing out the water? Please post your photos so I can see what I might be doing wrong.
Bo0sted_Rafi
New member
I think the leds can grow any corals, you only needs the right leds for it.
Here the electricity its .31 kwph, do the maths with MH
Here the electricity its .31 kwph, do the maths with MH
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