Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[JPMagyar]

Keep the growth pics in your thread, that is more on topic and makes it easier to follow the tank's progress. There is no doubt that LED's can grow corals, that has been known since the Solaris came out in 2006/7 era. This thread is about people who went LED, noticed the change in their corals and decided to go back to MH or T5. This thread isn't about getting people to switch to LED, this thread is for once they did switch to LED, how many have switched back, and why.

Bought Pac Sun Pandora S2 fixtures. Tried them for a month. Already seeing negative effects in the form of browning and paler colors on a few corals. Some corals improved like my Birds Nest, and clearly my anemone has never been happier, but I'm switching back to metal halide because that's when ALL my corals looked awesome and grew like crazy not just some. Fortunately I have my old T5 fixtures to use until I get some new MH fixtures from Giessmann.

Here's how my tank looked under 4 x 400 watt Radiums . . .

 

[sirreal63]

I have been following the saga on your main thread Joe, I was hoping to see you and the PAC Suns do great but I am not really surprised by the turn in coral colors. Many very experienced reefers in this thread noted the same and was their reason for going back. I am sure sme of the inexperienced ones would be happy with your corals as they are under the LEDs and think it was great.

Fixing the Sfiligois or going with the Geisemanns?

 

[d2mini]

Joe, that shot is jaw dropping. :eek2:

 

[FastUno]

JPMagyar, where are your corals turning white/brown? From the tip or from the bottom?


Check out one of our own RC's members beautifully lit LED tank. Comes on you MH guys. MH's are great & I love them, but you most admit that LED lit tanks can be done.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125739&page=14

 

[JPMagyar]

JPMagyar, where are your corals turning white/brown? From the tip or from the bottom?

My GARF Bonsai is purple on top but paler in the middle with hints of brown. My Hot Pink Stylo isn't "Hot" and when examined with a mesoscope you see hints of brown zooxanthellea. My electric green stylo is not electric green but has hints of brown. My Blue stag is developing pale green on the main body rather than pure blue. My Blue Matrix is turning pale blue instead of deep blue, my SSC is losing yellow and turning brown. The changes are all very very subtle, but I have been staring at my tank and corals for over 10 years so to me even minor changes are quickly apparent especially when I have my 180 downstairs with which to compare the corals. The basement tank is on the same system but has one of my old 2 x 400 watt Radium + 2 x 110 watt hoods on it.

Check out one of our own RC's members beautifully lit LED tank. Comes on you MH guys. MH's are great & I love them, but you most admit that LED lit tanks can be done.

As has been said previously in this thread, no one here is saying LEDs don't work. What most of us are saying is that we tried LEDs and aesthetically we didn't like the results.

The tank you pointed out is to me a perfect example. First off it's really hard to get a good photo, even the OP admitted as much himself. The photos of LED tanks are almost always too dark and/or too purple. Second, notice how some of the corals have that weird wavy bend in their growth pattern also typical of LED tanks. Third, look closely at the corals. Few have thorough saturation. Most if not all have great color towards the tips but paler coloration on the body. Also typical of LEDs. Look for a tank that has the old time coral called a Tyree Purple Monster which grows in the shape of a Christmas Tree. It never goes solid purple under LEDs. Lastly, look at the plating coral on the bottom left notice it is not vibrant but dull with hints of brown.

Is the tank beautiful? Yes, of course. Do I like that look? No, absolutely not. Furthermore, I guarantee there are some corals that simply would not thrive in that tank. Seems as if the list is different for each LED lit tank, but in general that has been what I have observed online and in person. Finally, there are so many choices and configurations as to make the duplication of someone's success with LEDs almost impossible. The exact opposite is true with metal halide or T5. Buy a dual 400 watt Radium hood or an 8 bulb ATI Sunpower fixture and you have literally hundreds of real world examples you can copy with near certain results. The same is simply not true with regards to LED fixtures; there are too many variables. If a reefer enjoys experimenting and having fun with technology then by all means use LEDs. If a reefer wants a tank full of beautiful SPS with no regard for what kind of SPS then use metal halide or T5. That to me is the issue in a nutshell.


I absolutely agree LEDs can make for nice reefs, but personally I have yet to see one that I would want in my living room, and that is purely a matter of personal tastes, and that I think is what this thread is trying to say. :beer:

 

[power boat jim]

Bought Pac Sun Pandora S2 fixtures. Tried them for a month. Already seeing negative effects in the form of browning and paler colors on a few corals. Some corals improved like my Birds Nest, and clearly my anemone has never been happier, but I'm switching back to metal halide because that's when ALL my corals looked awesome and grew like crazy not just some. Fortunately I have my old T5 fixtures to use until I get some new MH fixtures from Giessmann.

Here's how my tank looked under 4 x 400 watt Radiums . . .

JP with the way that picture looks I would not have even considered changing lights or anything else in that tank. The colors couldnt be much better if you coated the corals with Krylon.

 

[d2mini]

+1 to everything Joe said.

 

[mussel and hate]

The problem isn't LEDs per se it's spectrum, intensity and distribution. What sort of technology matters not at all to the coral.

It may be that certain commercial systems lack the balance to match one's previous MH or fluorescent light. DIY LED systems can provide for opportunity to change the mix to suit the specific case.

I ran 5500K MH back in the '80s and tried different bulbs over the decades finally settling on the Iwasaki 14k. I assure you my tank had to adjust to each bulb change even when the bulb changed was supposed to be the same as the bulb it replaced. Not all these adjustments were positive.

Certainly any change in light is going to induce changes in the animals lit. Experimentation and observation are required to determine what works best. I believe it was once said here that nothing good happens quickly in a reef aquarium.

I won't be switching back to MH as the animals I keep appear healthy under my DIY LEDs. If I acquire a specimen that does poorly I expect I'll trade it for something else. The benefits of reduced heat and electrical consumption are just too compelling for me to ignore.

 

[mhucasey]

Many times when pictures are posted as examples of "Successful LED tanks" the polite folks here mostly refrain from critiquing, especially if critiques are due. I understand that many times photos of tanks are not representative of what the tank looks like in person.

I am happy to hear Joe's detailed analysis of what he sees as issues in both his tanks and those that are presented to him. It just sucks that it takes someone with a TOTM to bring some honest criticism where it is due. For those posting pictures of their tank here to make a point, be prepared to have those pictures dissected. If they are not good pictures and/or if they don't show what you want them to show, maybe you shouldn't post them.

There are ways to get representative pictures and I have seen a few really good LED tanks both in pictures and video. However, I have only seen one LED grown tank that can hold a candle to the best MH and T5 tanks. Im still looking and hoping that in a few years we will be there...

 

[Reefvet]

As has been said previously in this thread, no one here is saying LEDs don't work. What most of us are saying is that we tried LEDs and aesthetically we didn't like the results.

The guy next door to me has had Corvettes all the years I've been driving Porsches. He doesn't really like my car and I really don't like his but they're both fast and fun.

Amazingly we remain friends and good neighbors.

Fortunately he doesn't have a reef tank so he can't compare his to mine.

 

[JPMagyar]

The guy next door to me has had Corvettes all the years I've been driving Porsches. He doesn't really like my car and I really don't like his but they're both fast and fun.

Amazingly we remain friends and good neighbors.

Fortunately he doesn't have a reef tank so he can't compare his to mine.

Now that is funny! :lolspin:

Personally I wouldn't even put the two cars in the same category, but if I own up to which one I prefer I might get into even more trouble with my good 'ole American friends here on RC

 

[d2mini]

Both fine cars that run neck to neck around the track and get you the same end results just in different style and at different price points.

On the other hand, different lighting technologies produce different results, some similar some not so similar.
Depends what results you are looking for.

 

[rtparty]

I love my hybrid light and what it's doing for my tank.

However, I'm very interested in building a fixture with 2 70w halides and t5 or LED for supplementation. I know that people don't care for 70w halides but on my shallow tank, I don't need or want a ton of light. 300 PAR at the top is totally fine to me. My buddy is a metal fabricator and I could easily build a shell and leave the industrial look. I could also just buy an Aquatic Life shell and retro it up with everything I need and then throw a couple blue LED strips on the outside edges. It would take a little work but could be really cool when done. Some may ask why not 150w halides and my problem is the power usage and how powerful they'd be on my tank.

Good 70w bulbs are probably the biggest pitfall on the whole thing....Hmmmm

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Use one 150 or 175 and hang it higher above the tank.

 

[FastUno]

JP, forgive me I may be a little bit ignorant. I have not read the entire thread, but the few posts I did see clearly bashed LED's. I had a family member contemplating going MH/T5 route because of this thread, until 6+ weeks into my experimental Chinese LED tank he saw that I made progress.

Why did you buy the Pac Sun Pandora S2 fixtures, especially at those prices? Are they proven fixtures & did you see a few others with great results? I bought my Chinese LED's because a few of my local reefers are using similar, but more expensive models & I have chatted & seen some tanks. In addition my loss would be minimal if they don't work out. Some of the most intelligent lighting information that I have read came from the Pac Sun sponsors on this forum. It seems they are really into reef lighting & not just selling units for sales sake.

If I had the problems you had with your combo units, then I would be making similar posts. I do appreciate everyone's input, especially from someone who has been maintaining a reef for 10+ years & who has TOTM. Aside from some posters I think most of us are on the same team, team whatever works best for your tanks, wallets, & happiness.

When I made the LED choice (& after my 29g experiment), I expected to loose a few corals/frags based on everyone elses experience, but instead I am becoming more & more pleasantly surprised. It is still too early to make any final judgements, but things look promising. Certain corals have responded better with my LED's than my MH.

Now keep in mind that my MH bulbs were used 6-7 months, then it was stored for 6+ years when I got out of the hobby & then used for another 6+ months. So needless to say they were way past due for a replacment. Choice was replace my MH & T5 bulbs for $200+ or buy Chinese LED's at $254. I took a gamble & convinced myself if corals died that I would simply not keep those type of corals & be able to live with only the ones that survived. I figured I would loose 5-7 corals.

 

[FastUno]

I bought a few corals from an ATI 8x T5/LED lit tank & in my tank (MH/T5) they were not as colorful over time. I simply did not have enough light for some of them & they lost some color. I also received some corals that did not due as well from that same tank, like a pink hammer & they have colored up nicely under my LED's (imagine that).

Out of all the corals I have listed below I only have trouble with one of them & another is a mixed result, but with more advantages.
Coral #1: 3 polyps of very light blue zoas. Within the first week they melted away, it was simply too much light for them. They were on a same rock as 3x other zoa types & all my other zoas survived just fine. This was just too much light too fast for these lightly colored zoas.

I have a green set of zoas that looked very dull in my 75g tank (MH/T5), yet they looked super colorful & electric in my 29g Chinese lit experimental tank. I am sure with time all my other zoas will color up more than with the MH/T5's.

Coral #2: This is the Purple Stylophora that I bought from that T5/LED tank. It was less purple over time & as it grew the undersides became brown & some white. Within a little over a week with LED's the undersides turned from brown to white, but all the stems/fingers from the bottom to the top are becoming more purple & vibrant. Becoming more like what I had originally received them as. I had dark spots in my MH & same with LEDs, but my LEDs let more light through that the coral was not used to. To at end, I don't think anyting can save the shaded areas there is simply no way light can get under the top half of the coral. Just from this coral alone I can say that if your corals were not used to a good amount of light, then you will have issues. If your corals have received a sufficient enough light, then they stand a better chance in making it with LED's.

*****THE TIPS always had enough light (MH/T5) & they are doing great under LED's, better than my MH/T5 combo. The bottom & shaded portion got very poor light from MH/T5 & all of a sudden got blasted with LED's & are not responding as well. So we are dealing with the same coral, same parameters, same general location within tank but with different shading.*****

Here are the corals that have just taken off now & that are so much colorful on the LED's. This is because they are being hit directly by the light & getting more light now:
Green tip orange birdsnest, Ora Green Birdsnest, Pink birdsnets, Blue Tort, Purple Nana, Green Slimer, Green Hydnophora, & Hollywood Stunner.

My Hollywood Stunner was on the front left corner (bottom of the tank) & away from all the corals so it can't sting anything. It has lost color & turned brown & looks dull over time with MH/T5's. Two weeks with LED's & it is coloring up very nicely. It has a nice green & aqua color now.


CORALS I HAVE:

Green tip orange birdsnest
Birds of paridise Birdsnest
Ora Green Birdsnest
Pink birdsnets

Purple Montipora digitata
Orange Montipora digitata
Green Montipora digitata
Green purple polyp monti cap
Orange monti cap
neon green monti cap
sunset monti
Setosa

Hollywood Stunner
Green Pavona cactus
Green Pocillopora damicornis
Purple Stylophora
Blue Tort
Purple Nana
Green Slimer
Green Hydnophora
Green Psammocora
war coral
favia 3x species
blastos wellsi

Pink Hammer 2x types
Purple tip green frogspawn
Green tip octo/frogspawn
Green torch
neon green candy canes

GSP 2x varieties
purple star polyps
clove polyps
xenia

Orange Rhodactis
Greem Rhodactis
Elephant's ear
Green/purple Frizzy mushrooms
Green/brown frizzy mushrooms

15-18 various zoas
3-4 paly's

Mini maxi carpet

Clam

Fish:
Percula clown
Gold Maroon clown
Tomato clown
Yellow tang
Red sea sailfin tang
Flame angel
Anthelia
2x damsels
Arc Eye hawk

 

[JPMagyar]

JP with the way that picture looks I would not have even considered changing lights or anything else in that tank. The colors couldnt be much better if you coated the corals with Krylon.

Hah! Thanks Jim. Sadly it was an issue of tank envy with Krysztof Tryc who used T5s. I blame him for my slow descent into silliness. Now it's taking a while to get back to my roots :debi:

JP,

Why did you buy the Pac Sun Pandora S2 fixtures, especially at those prices? Are they proven fixtures & did you see a few others with great results?

I know Pac Sun makes some of the most well designed LED fixtures on the market because a good friend has purchased almost a dozen fixtures. In addition, I had seen some "hybrid" systems that were DIY that seemed to have fantastic results. Lastly, I wanted to try the new technology on my display tank and I honestly hoped that I would be the one to grow my tank from it's redone state it's in today and bring it back to TOTM quality with a hybrid light. Call it excessive pride or hubris, but I thought I could do it. Sadly, I just don't think the Pandora S2 can get the job done. Maybe . . . maybe the S could do the job if I lowered the lights to 2 inches and ran the S panels at partial power. That might improve the spread enough, but honestly I think it's the design of the SMT clusters. They create hot spots and do not spread the light at all plus I fear that the balance of spectrum is not evenly distributed and so some areas get uneven levels of unwanted or needed spectrum and you have no way of figuring that out.


Now as to your tank . . .

and please please please keep in mind that comments I make are about lighting and not about you or any choices you make so if I seem mean online I hope you understand I am not mean in person and I am simply discussing why I think folks should stick to metal halide . . . really . . . I'll buy the beer if we ever actually meet at a MACNA event

Your tank is nice, but honestly again it is very typical of a LED tank. Less than 100% saturation of colors, slightly dull colors, and growth patterns that are not natural looking. I want my reef to look like a reef when it grows in. I don't want a reef that looks like a bunch of overgrown frag plugs with some oddly shaped coral trying to sprout out from the base. I apologize for the harshness of the comment, but really? Here is an example of the kind of growth and color I expect of my corals . . . (from my tank under Radiums) Notice how your Bird's Nests look and notice the growth form of mine.

 

[JPMagyar]

And this is taken from another thread, but is an example of growth in a metal halide tank. No LED tank has EVER come close to the growth, color, and form of this tank. . .

Sorry folks gonna disagree a little on this one; hope everyone understands it's just my opinion and is in no way personal



Assuming you maintain good water parameters as close to NSW as possible, then the best growth possible in a closed reef aquarium environment comes from 6 - 8 hours of intense broad spectrum lighting. (This includes LED lighting although the example below is metal halide.)


This was the tank of my good friend Keith Berkelhamer, two time RC TOTM champ and all around good guy. His tank had no coral feeding, no extra Kh, no extra Ca, no dosing anything. He just kept parameters at NSW levels and used lots and lots and lots of light. In this case 400 watt metal halide. (Of course he started with awesome frags from some local dude me!)



August 2007

April 2008

May 2009

April 2010

 

[rtparty]

I think Joe hit a very important point that I've bit my tongue on for a very long time: The typical LED tank.

I've seen nice tanks with LEDs but they were LED tanks. They didn't rival a good MH or T5 tank, not even close. And that is TOTALLY fine. Some people absolutely love the look and it works for them. I can't stand it personally. Greens and oranges usually look great but rarely does any other color stick out to me. I've seen a few pinks here and there but nothing spectacular.

Again, people love the look and I'm so happy for them. I'm glad they enjoy the hobby.

For me and my tanks, I won't accept that look. It isn't for ME. My favorite tank that is local to me is by a man named Brad Syphus. He is on here as bradleyj. His tank rivals any of the greats out there. He could use any lighting he wants and yet he sticks to his MH no matter what. His tank always makes me want to go back to MH and just forget it. I've never seen an LED tank and thought the same.

JMO.

 

[mhucasey]

FastUno makes a decent point, if you don't mind tailoring your livestock to your lighting you may be willing to compromise on what lighting system you use. The tanks that I personally have found the most appealing are T5 tanks, with Radium MH tanks coming a close second. In both of those lighting system the tanks that I have seen can grow ANY coral, especially any Acropora.

Birdsnests, Montis and Purple Stylos will grow under a wide range of lighting and still look good. My "naughty tank"/Display refugia uses two LED par 38(disco) bulbs and all the Purple Stylo and orange Monti grew from a few bits taken from the main tank during my first coral harvest a year or so back:

In the main tank I literally throw away the purple stylo and green Pocillopora now because it grows like weeds.

I want to be able to get the rarest/most beautiful Acroporas and grow them. Its an obsession. I don't want to come across a coral and decide I cant get it because I cant support it's lighting needs.