Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[mhucasey]

This isn't a look at my tank thread, and as I said above, there are many many better tanks out there.

Not the best picture, it's a bit blue (one of the genuine problems with led lit tanks is that they don't photograph very well) but you can hardly call this a FOWLR tank either.

Don't sell your tank short, I think it is beautiful. You are right that with the right mix, spread, and intensity of LEDs, you can get great results. The problem I think most people have is that they are sold 1/3 or less of the amount of LED light that they need to properly light their tank. As you reach the proper level of LEDs, the cost savings both in fixtures and electricity usage goes away. Your fixture for example:

Vertex Illumina SR360 6 foot: $4,029.99
Vertex Red pads X 4: $99 X 4 = $396
Vertex UV Pads X 3: $129 X 3 = $387

Total Light Fixture cost: $4812.99
The base model advertises "80 watts per foot" so the base 6 foot model runs at max 480 watts(which is a significant amount IMO). For comparison 6 feet of T5 bulbs(2 36" fixtures with 8 bulbs) would use 624 watts peak. You would have to be paying some ridiculously high power rates to pay back the cost of an almost 5 thousand dollar fixture.

 

[JPMagyar]

Nice tank Tagaroa. This picture is a lot different than the totm pics, which to me look unaturally dark and oversaturated.

This thread seems to be about a bunch of people with blinders on talking past each other. Seriously folks, take a little peek 'outside the box'. The view is pretty good... and all the other boxes are full of purdy fish 'n stuff.

Hey I resemble that remark

but really I agree. . . some awesome tanks out there; MH and LED :thumbsup:

 

[Mikefromaz]

I dunno.... I read these threads until my eyes cross. Isn't the point that at the end of the day when you hang out with your (insert lighting system here) tank YOU have to like it? I just can't wrap my head around the idea that reef tanks are some kind of competition. Regardless whether you have a nano or something big enough to float a boat in make it yours. If other people like my reef, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. Go in peace.

 

[mhucasey]

I dunno.... I read these threads until my eyes cross. Isn't the point that at the end of the day when you hang out with your (insert lighting system here) tank YOU have to like it? I just can't wrap my head around the idea that reef tanks are some kind of competition. Regardless whether you have a nano or something big enough to float a boat in make it yours. If other people like my reef, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. Go in peace.

You are correct, and if you post your tank to show it off in a build thread it would be rude to go into that thread and nit-pick your tank or compare it to others. The only reason people are doing that here is that we are debating whether going back to a proven lighting technology like T5 or MH is a good idea. There are pros and cons with every system, and what you want to achieve is the most important thing.

I think most of us get frustrated when people make statements here that cannot be backed up with evidence. Why is it important to debate all this? There are some people who are in the process of deciding what lighting to go with and the cost of any lighting setup is a significant chunk of money to spend. These days there are probably 50 or more LED fixture MFGs/Distributors/Rebranders and IMO they are not all very honest. They push the hobbyist(especially new hobbyists) to lay out a lot of cash and every single one of them claim great results from their fixture.

They know that once someone has spent the money they can't just take the fixture back if it doesn't work out. Even the "Industry leaders" like Ecotech only have had fixtures on the market for a handful of years.

I chose LED because one of my LFS switched their entire system over to LED and I thought the electricity savings and control were a great idea. I figured that if a large LFS was willing to put their money down on LED when it was their livelihood on the line that that was as good evidence as any. I go back to that LFS now and the corals are just not looking good, drab and sickly looking.

At the same time another LFS also had switched over all their tanks to LED and gave it a go for a while. They have since switched back to MH, and the improvement is obvious.

So we will keep on talking about the merits of either system and I figure eventually LED systems will overcome the issues that they currently have and then the debate will be over. My feeling is that when LEDs get it all dialed in the fixtures won't use much less electricity than T5s or MH, they will probably be a lot cooler to run, will be larger than many of the current designs, and will be cheaper by far than they are now as the cost of LED chips drop. They will not require bulb changes, and will be controllable which would continue to be some of LEDs big advantages.

 

[d2mini]

I dunno.... I read these threads until my eyes cross. Isn't the point that at the end of the day when you hang out with your (insert lighting system here) tank YOU have to like it?

That's the whole point of this thread... who was NOT happy with their lighting system and decided to switch back to what they had before. A point which some seem to have missed.

 

[Tangaroa]

That's the whole point of this thread... who was NOT happy with their lighting system and decided to switch back to what they had before. A point which some seem to have missed.

And my point is that you can't always blame the lighting. :love1:

 

[d2mini]

And my point is that you can't always blame the lighting. :love1:

You can't always blame anything for everything.
The experienced reefers in this thread know exactly what to blame for whatever it is they are not happy with.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

This isn't a look at my tank thread, and as I said above, there are many many better tanks out there.

Not the best picture, it's a bit blue (one of the genuine problems with led lit tanks is that they don't photograph very well) but you can hardly call this a FOWLR tank either.

WOW!
I guess I need to spring for three multi-color modules.
I can get the same look as that for $3,300 total.
That looks extraordinary!!!

I just put my old halide fixture on my tank.
The bulbs are probably over due for replacement, but it was not the OMG moment I thought it would be.

 

[Sk8r]

Gentlemen and ladies: please. Address the issues. Avoid the word 'you' altogether. You're on the verge of thread lock in what should be a useful thread.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

Tangaroa, I do have one question.
There is obviously some kind of supplemental lighting in the far right corner.
What is that?

 

[Tangaroa]

Tangaroa, I do have one question.
There is obviously some kind of supplemental lighting in the far right corner.
What is that?

My tank is 8 foot long x 30 inches front to back, and 2 weeks ago I added a 2 foot SR360 running front to back to improve the light spread and to enable me to populate the rocks that are in front of the weir on the left hand side with some more SPS.

It's more noticeable in the picture because there is a cloud passing across the tank on the right hand side of the 6 foot unit. :thumbsup:

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

My tank is 8 foot long x 30 inches front to back, and 2 weeks ago I added a 2 foot SR360 running front to back to improve the light spread and to enable me to populate the rocks that are in front of the weir on the left hand side with some more SPS.

It's more noticeable in the picture because there is a cloud passing across the tank on the right hand side of the 6 foot unit. :thumbsup:

Gotcha. Thanks!

 

[mussel and hate]

One of the scenarios that seems to pop up frequently in this thread is where someone replaces a MH or fluorescent light with a two or 3 color LED array and then maligns LEDs in general. Worse yet the total wattage of the luminaires compared aren't anything like equivalent. It's like claiming metal halides all suck because the 70 watt 4k halide I hung over my tank doesn't produce acceptable results when compared to whatever other lighting. Not all these things are comparable and the comparisons in this thread are often proffered with smugness and vitriol. Ineveitably the discussion descends into personal attacks and argumentum ad pictura(your argument isn't valid for lack of a picture).

I'm not certain this thread ever did serve a purpose beyond reinforcing existing prejudices and dividing the community, regardless I feel certain it has run it's course. It would be a boon to all here on RC if the mods would just lock the thread, better threads have been deleted.

 

[d2mini]

It would be a boon to all here on RC if the mods would just lock the thread, better threads have been deleted.

No, it's posts like this that take it off topic.
The ORIGINAL topic of this thread is about who switched, and it's still interesting to hear about it. It's not about which is better although some are trying to make it that. So lets get back on topic and stop getting our feelings hurt like children, mmkay?

 

[nynick]

One of the scenarios that seems to pop up frequently in this thread is where someone replaces a MH or fluorescent light with a two or 3 color LED array and then maligns LEDs in general. Worse yet the total wattage of the luminaires compared aren't anything like equivalent. It's like claiming metal halides all suck because the 70 watt 4k halide I hung over my tank doesn't produce acceptable results when compared to whatever other lighting. Not all these things are comparable and the comparisons in this thread are often proffered with smugness and vitriol. Ineveitably the discussion descends into personal attacks and argumentum ad pictura(your argument isn't valid for lack of a picture).

I'm not certain this thread ever did serve a purpose beyond reinforcing existing prejudices and dividing the community, regardless I feel certain it has run it's course. It would be a boon to all here on RC if the mods would just lock the thread, better threads have been deleted.

This thread is still very much relevant. As long as there are people who switch from true and trusted MH/T5 combos to one of many, many rubbish led setups out there it should keep going. There is a huge need for info on this topic. A bit more name and shame would be nice too...and credit where that is due.

 

[AkoAung]

Hey guys n grrls, here's my 2 cents - people want to switch to LEDs for

1) power saving
2) cool running
3) long life
4) shimmer
5) no ballast issues
6) no reflector issues

but, it doesn't get the same results as the best MH and T5 (or combos there of) gives:

Halides + T5s:
1) colour pop
2) better growth (sometimes)

#2 is much less of a issue - some of the LED fixtures just don't have enough bulbs for the prescribed coverage area. Generally the more wattage, the better it is, I find.

#1 is where the biggest gripe is. There are ways to mitigate the issue #1 which is the biggest one for those display tanks. Issue has to do with spectrum coverage. MH and T5s cover a broad range of spectrum. they have peaks that manufacturers try to manipulate for, but still provides the fringes of the visible and non-visible spectrum. Part of that spectrum coverage is the UVs of varying amounts. Corals try to protect themselves from these harmful rays by producing proteins that will reflect back those lights as a different spectrum. that's where fluorescence comes from as per different scholarly articles (citation needed). If certain wavelengths are absent, then the corals will no longer produce the proteins that reflect those lights it doesn't want. Because LED diodes have specific spectrum limitations, and the fall off from the peak spectrum is quite steep, they won't cover all including the specific ones that each type of coral will respond to. MH mimics sunlight better in that respect - it gives off everything good and bad including wavelengths each coral responds to. So keep this in mind when looking at LED fixtures. is there really enough bulbs/wattage per square inch of a tank, and does the spectrum coverage mimic the MH T5 combos you like, including the non-visible spectrums?

Some have come up with combination of LEDs and T5s. This might give the best pop and shimmer right now.

LEDs do have a lot of advantages to them. And there are many price points out there. So much so that it is almost like purchasing wine or high end fidelity equipment - $$$$$ more may be spent for extremely incremental marginal improvement - the law of diminishing returns.

the question is what are you willing to live with. Make that choice, tweak, build, until someone comes up with a product you just can't live without.

 

[shifty51008]

Tangaroa, very nice tank I must say, but I am wondering about the couple big colonies of SPS on the left side of the tank. to me they look like they almost just grow straight up and don't get the bushy look is this do to the LED lights or just the type of SPS.

 

[Tangaroa]

Tangaroa, very nice tank I must say, but I am wondering about the couple big colonies of SPS on the left side of the tank. to me they look like they almost just grow straight up and don't get the bushy look is this do to the LED lights or just the type of SPS.

Thanks Shifty.

Both are staghorn corals. Their growth patterns are determined by factors including (but not limited to) light, flow and damage. If you look to the right hand side of the green acro you will see that this is bushier than the rest of the colony. This is as a result of accidental fragging of the tips whilst attempting to clean the back of the glass. The blue tipped stag on the right is very bushy and is home to over 20 blue/green reef chromis.

That's me finished with this thread. I only posted to defend the honour of the vertex illumina light unit. RC is a very influential forum and it doesn't take too many poor reviews to destroy a manufacturer in what is a very small industry. I therefore wanted to demonstrate that even with my limited reef keeping experience it is possible to produce a reasonable display of sps. I have no right to post here as I have NOT chosen to go back to MH, and therefore my input is obviously off-topic.

Finally, I would like to apologise if my contribution included too many possessive pronouns.

 

[mhucasey]

I'm not certain this thread ever did serve a purpose beyond reinforcing existing prejudices and dividing the community.

This thread has already been surprising and informative in several ways:
1) Powerboat Jim is undertaking a bit of an experiment to compare the two - The results from that hopefully will be interesting.
2) Tangaroa has shown what a LED setup with the correct mix of coverage and colors can look like.
3) The LED setup in item 2 has made Uncle Salty consider staying with his Vertex Unit.
4) There are many readers of the thread who will be better equipped when they go into their LFS or shop online for a lighting solution, and that will hopefully result in more success, more reefs, and less dead animals.

I personally continue to be intrigued by the possibilities - it won't be too much longer before LEDs are not only cheap to run but cheap to buy with all the controllability, blended color, etc. LEDs are ultimately a semiconductor - and they will continue to drop in price.

 

[Fredfish]

... MH and T5s cover a broad range of spectrum.

If you are talking the Iwasiki 65k bulb absolutely, the MH bulbs popular now as as narrow spectrum as LED. In fact, a white LED has a much broader spectrum than those 14K and 20K MH bulbs that are so popular.

they have peaks that manufacturers try to manipulate for, but still provides the fringes of the visible and non-visible spectrum.

All T5s have a giant peak at 550nm and some red that ballances out the colour rendition for those bulbs.

From what I have read, it is the coverage from 400 nm to 500 nm with a bit of red in the 590 to 650 range that gives all the colour pop for T5. It seems those tubes have hit some sweet spot.

Part of that spectrum coverage is the UVs of varying amounts.

Not that I know of. There are almost no fluorescing proteins that use light below 400 nm. The vast majority are between 400 and aobut 520 nm. There is a lesser grouping between 560 and 600 nm and none above 600 nm. Say, doesn't that match almost perfectly with the spectral output of the most popular T5 bulbs? BTW all these spectral plots have been posted elsewhere in this thread.

MH mimics sunlight better in that respect

Again, outside of Iwasaki, not even close. Note that the Iwasaki bulb is much more full spectrum than any MH or T5 currently in use, but its not particularly popular. Broad spectrum is not the issue or solution.

All the DIYers and, belatedly, the major LED suppliers are now adding a broader range of spectrum between 400 and 500 nm. There is a shift in what whites are being used and at least one supplier, Pacific Sun, is attempting to do what those nice T5s do by cutting out 'undesired' spectrum.

MH has the advantage of being proven and plug and go. T5s are proven and sure do give colour pop. LED is like that 18 year old kid your boss just hired and all the old guys look at him and think " man, in my day..."