Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Braver69]

I'm no expert myself but THAT is funny.

I also decided to take an earlier challenge up and count metal halides today on my drive home. I live 3 miles from my work. Just right across the highway one exit down. 5 minute drive maybe. I lost count at 100 and more metal halide fixtures in the way of street lamps, building spotlights and accent lights, parking lot lights ect.

Folks. They're used a lot more for general outdoor and commercial lighting than any other form by a LONG shot. Nobody think for two seconds metal halides are going to be phased out. They're everywhere you look.

Thats not true. I work for a city and they are spending millions right now taking out all those metal halides you were talking about and replacing them all with leds. The cost savings and electrical rebates are paying for half the cost in 1 year. In 3 years it will pay for all the lights being changed over to leds. Now in California the cost of electric drives that need to change, however other cities will do the same as costs continue to decline on leds.

Metal Halide works, but is very inefficent and creates tons of wasted energy in the form of heat. I agree Metal Halide works for growing corals as do T5's and leds, metal halides are by far the biggest waster of energy tho and will eventually find themselves outlawed like the original incandescent light bulb. I suggest you guys that like metal halide stock up on bulbs and keep a spare ballast or two, one day you wont be able to replace it.

 

[Reefing21715]

Thats not true. I work for a city and they are spending millions right now taking out all those metal halides you were talking about and replacing them all with leds. The cost savings and electrical rebates are paying for half the cost in 1 year. In 3 years it will pay for all the lights being changed over to leds. Now in California the cost of electric drives that need to change, however other cities will do the same as costs continue to decline on leds.



Metal Halide works, but is very inefficent and creates tons of wasted energy in the form of heat. I agree Metal Halide works for growing corals as do T5's and leds, metal halides are by far the biggest waster of energy tho and will eventually find themselves outlawed like the original incandescent light bulb. I suggest you guys that like metal halide stock up on bulbs and keep a spare ballast or two, one day you wont be able to replace it.

lol this is funny thanks for the information on how the gov is spending my taxes but i care less if they put mh or led on the streets we dont need those lights to grow or be healthy only to see at night on the strets our reeftanks do need the best light that we can provide.

 

[sirreal63]

Thats not true. I work for a city and they are spending millions right now taking out all those metal halides you were talking about and replacing them all with leds.

So you work for every city, all across this country?

 

[Wazzel]

I'm no expert myself but THAT is funny.

I also decided to take an earlier challenge up and count metal halides today on my drive home. I live 3 miles from my work. Just right across the highway one exit down. 5 minute drive maybe. I lost count at 100 and more metal halide fixtures in the way of street lamps, building spotlights and accent lights, parking lot lights ect.

Folks. They're used a lot more for general outdoor and commercial lighting than any other form by a LONG shot. Nobody think for two seconds metal halides are going to be phased out. They're everywhere you look.

Did you think to ask why there are more MH fixtures than LED, today? Could be that is it cheaper to maintain what the city has that to replace all the light fixtures? Same could be said for any other location that has some form of incandesent bulbs as lighting. Honestly why would they spend the money to swap out fixtures if they do not need to?

 

[Wazzel]

Yep, you didn't read it.
Oh well.

And there is nothing to improve about mh. It works and nothing can grow coral better at the moment.

If a technology is not inovating it is dying. If companies see a future for a product they will spend money on it to make it better. If they do not see a future they will ride out their last wave of products until they become obsolete.

Incondesent lighting of all types stoped improving there products a while back, they are on the way out. The question is how much longer will they be availible.

 

[Wazzel]

Most of them have it right already and don't need improvement.

Metal Halide is just plain better reef tank lighting versus LEDs.

So use LEDs if you are so happy with them. I used them and switched back and am happier with halides.

In a hobby that is as much art as technology, better, best, are almost useless terms considering the amount of personal preference that is involved.

Some people consider 400 watt radiums to be "the best" lighting out there. I am not a fan of them at all. Not saying they are bad, just not my taste for lighting my tank. Even if I would have gone the MH route again I would not have used that set up.

 

[dcmartinpc]

If a technology is not inovating it is dying.

The problem with this statement is that if something works and works very WELL, then there isn't $$$ in making it %3 better. If someone could make MH %50 better, I think they would, but businesses and consumers aren't going to upgrage or invest at a premium for something that is only just slightly better.

Magnetic ballasts have been around since before many of us were alive... They work and work very well, albeit inefficient. In come electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts were a significant improvement over mag ballasts in efficiency. So some started using them, but mag MH ballasts are still much cheaper, and are serviceable in the field very easily. This is why mag ballasts are still the primary ballast for MH and HPS in industrial, commercial, and parking lot lighting.

I agree and believe LED (or possibly plasma in the case of reef or HID applications) is the technology of the future, but I also believe that we will see a leveling off. At some point, companies have to start spending less $$$ on R&D and realizing the profits of the technology. We will see a leveling off and much fewer changes once that happens. We will start seeing only small incremental changes every year to get the "gear junkies" to buy the latest and greatest model...

When that happens, I will likely reinvest in LED. I had one of the best, if not THE best LED fixture on the market, the GHL Mitras, and I sold it and went back to MH, for now. It was an excellent fixture and did grow corals, but color shifted many of my corals. The biggest problem I had was lack of knowledge. VERY few of us truly understand the exact spectrums and intensities of each of those spectrums our corals need to thrive. With LED many users go by the "Well, that looks nice" method. Some may get lucky, others not so much. Please understand, this is not a criticism of the technology. As hobbyists, we need more "pre-programmed" modes for the lights. I asked GHL over and over to please provide a program that mimicked a 250w and 400w Radium. They did not deliver. I don't know if this is because they couldn't or wouldn't do it, but it definitely says something...

All this to say, MH doesn't NEED to innovate because businesses and consumers are still buying them! They work well for the applications they are used for and the technology is limited by its design. If you change the tech, it is no longer MH, and there are other more promising technologies in the long run where R&D dollars are being spent, LED and Plasma.

Don

 

[nynick]

The problem with this statement is that if something works and works very WELL, then there isn't $$$ in making it %3 better. If someone could make MH %50 better, I think they would, but businesses and consumers aren't going to upgrage or invest at a premium for something that is only just slightly better.

Magnetic ballasts have been around since before many of us were alive... They work and work very well, albeit inefficient. In come electronic ballasts. Electronic ballasts were a significant improvement over mag ballasts in efficiency. So some started using them, but mag MH ballasts are still much cheaper, and are serviceable in the field very easily. This is why mag ballasts are still the primary ballast for MH and HPS in industrial, commercial, and parking lot lighting.

I agree and believe LED (or possibly plasma in the case of reef or HID applications) is the technology of the future, but I also believe that we will see a leveling off. At some point, companies have to start spending less $$$ on R&D and realizing the profits of the technology. We will see a leveling off and much fewer changes once that happens. We will start seeing only small incremental changes every year to get the "gear junkies" to buy the latest and greatest model...

When that happens, I will likely reinvest in LED. I had one of the best, if not THE best LED fixture on the market, the GHL Mitras, and I sold it and went back to MH, for now. It was an excellent fixture and did grow corals, but color shifted many of my corals. The biggest problem I had was lack of knowledge. VERY few of us truly understand the exact spectrums and intensities of each of those spectrums our corals need to thrive. With LED many users go by the "Well, that looks nice" method. Some may get lucky, others not so much. Please understand, this is not a criticism of the technology. As hobbyists, we need more "pre-programmed" modes for the lights. I asked GHL over and over to please provide a program that mimicked a 250w and 400w Radium. They did not deliver. I don't know if this is because they couldn't or wouldn't do it, but it definitely says something...

All this to say, MH doesn't NEED to innovate because businesses and consumers are still buying them! They work well for the applications they are used for and the technology is limited by its design. If you change the tech, it is no longer MH, and there are other more promising technologies in the long run where R&D dollars are being spent, LED and Plasma.

Don

Very well put!

A well marketed, inexpensive, plug and play full spectrum LED with ONE button for intensity is sure to be a huge success and quickly take a leading market place. Make 2 versions, one pinpoint for the MH users who like looks, shadows and shimmer and one spread out for T5ers who value growth the most.

What the market needs right now is a good old fashioned investment capitalist to snap all the techies into place and force them to make lights for us instead of themselves.

P.S. This is a discussion on reef lights. You forgot to get personal and insulting.

 

[shred5]

This time I disagree with eveththing in the above post. Light isn't that simple. It's not high par led = good, low par mh = bad. That's nonsense. Put up a fixture with nothing but warm whites and reds, high wattage, and crank them. You might have insanely high par, but you'll also have a lot of dead coral. What matters is consistency and if your lights are producing the particular spectral peaks that the chloraphyll and accessory proteins in the coral tissue use for photosynthesis. It's not just a simple high par low par deal. Nobody cares what investments and research are being made. Why on earth would that matter.

I don't need a bulb/ballast to further advance or be reinvented over and over to make me happy. It produces the absolute perfect color to my eyes with zero tinkering, I don't run a chiller, and my tank runs at 79.5 degrees. I'm also seeing up to 1/2" of growth on most acropora in the last 3 weeks. Remind me again why i should switch? Ease of use, perfect color, fast growth. Am I missing something?

I agree allot with this post. To me par mainly has do with chlorophyll. I think we focus to much on chlorophyll and there is allot more to do with coloration, growth and health of a coral than par and chlorophyll.. To me light has more to do with coloration than overall coral health. These colorful pigments and proteins are what allow corals to grow where they do.. These pigments and proteins block light, enhance light, change light and gather light. It is what allows some corals to bake in the sun and other to grow at great depths. For those deep water corals they allow them to gather more light, for shallow water corals they are used like a sunscreen..

Here is the thing, what does chlorophyll produce for the coral? Glucose and what is glucose but sugar. Would this be good for corals no, would it be good for us to just eat sugar?

Another issue is we are mixing corals too much. We are keeping corals from 60 feet of water and corals from 5 feet of water next to each other and trying to keep them under the same light. these corals would never be found near each other in the wild.

 

[Braver69]

So you work for every city, all across this country?

Yeah sure I do, try reading I said in California, the state is also switching out metal halides on the freeway to leds. When California does such thngs other states tend to eventually follow along as well. I dont think metal halide has long before people in congress ban them just like the 100w light bulbs. They work but they just waste tons of energy. I know of many other cities also doing the same as well, I dont think I need to list them all, believe what you want.

 

[sirreal63]

I did read, what they do in California does not imply that is what is happening all across the country. (I am very thankful for that too) Not all areas are faced with the enormous energy bill that California is. Our summer rates kicked in here, an outrageous .10 per kwh and factoring in all of the extras in the bill it comes in total at .11 per kwh all in. For the record, our street lights are a mix of MH and HPS and there has been no talk of changing them to anything else.

 

[dcmartinpc]

Yeah sure I do, try reading I said in California, the state is also switching out metal halides on the freeway to leds. When California does such thngs other states tend to eventually follow along as well. I dont think metal halide has long before people in congress ban them just like the 100w light bulbs. They work but they just waste tons of energy. I know of many other cities also doing the same as well, I dont think I need to list them all, believe what you want.

Here is the biggest difference I see between Incandescent and MH.

Incandescent lights averaged about 16 lumens per watt... Roughly 5% of the electricity used actually gets converted to light.

Metal Halide tops out around 115 lumens per watt.

Cree has a new LED that can hit 300 lumens per watt, but we aren't seeing those mainstrem yet, and they are probably a couple years out, and will cost a pretty penny. Most everything that is out there, that I am aware of tops out around 160 lumens per watt.

Metal Halide is less efficient than LED, I agree. But when comparing apples to apples, LED is not the silver bullet many claim it to be, today....

There was a reason incandescent was banned as you can see above... MH is FAR from the energy hog that incandescent bulbs were.

The attached chart is a little old, I think LED would move over to the right now, but it illustrates the point.


Don

 

[d2mini]

Here is the biggest difference I see between Incandescent and MH.

Incandescent lights averaged about 16 lumens per watt... Roughly 5% of the electricity used actually gets converted to light.

Metal Halide tops out around 115 lumens per watt.

Cree has a new LED that can hit 300 lumens per watt, but we aren't seeing those mainstrem yet, and they are probably a couple years out, and will cost a pretty penny. Most everything that is out there, that I am aware of tops out around 160 lumens per watt.

Metal Halide is less efficient than LED, I agree. But when comparing apples to apples, LED is not the silver bullet many claim it to be, today....

There was a reason incandescent was banned as you can see above... MH is FAR from the energy hog that incandescent bulbs were.

The attached chart is a little old, I think LED would move over to the right now, but it illustrates the point.


Don

I don't know if the lumens per watt is what causes this, but I LOVE how bright my tank is when running MH compared to when i was running LEDs. :beachbum: It was so dim with the LEDs, especially when running at a low enough percentage not to burn coral.

 

[dcmartinpc]

I don't know if the lumens per watt is what causes this, but I LOVE how bright my tank is when running MH compared to when i was running LEDs. :beachbum: It was so dim with the LEDs, especially when running at a low enough percentage not to burn coral.

That has to do with perceived luminance and the unidirectional nature of LED light. But my guess is you already know that

I agree with you and many others and that is why I will be running MH on my 225 build in the coming months. Just like I do on my 60 cube today. The only reason I don't run MH on my 35 gallon corner LPS tank is that T5 just does something that is borderline magic to Acans

Don

 

[jda]

We rock out at .08 a kwh. Ouch.

I guess that Cali is going to be outlawing the 120 year old internal combustion engine and actually going with turbine jet packs and hovercrafts soon. You know, now that you mention it, this alternating current thing is getting pretty old - better cut the lines down and go 100% on-site solar. ...or it could be possible that good ideas that are not fully developed just might never get there.

BTW - you can still use high wattage incandescent light bulbs for non-general purposes. Hobbies are not general purpose along with food service, medical and the like.

 

[shred5]

I don't know if the lumens per watt is what causes this, but I LOVE how bright my tank is when running MH compared to when i was running LEDs. :beachbum: It was so dim with the LEDs, especially when running at a low enough percentage not to burn coral.

Thats because on reef tank halides waste allot of light. They spread it out and led is very directional and directs the light where it needs to be. Basically more light is bouncing around with halides and hitting your eyes and bouncing off walls making them appear brighter.. That is the reason halides wont be put out by led either. They are two different types of lighting.. Led wont kill fluorescent lights either. Leds being so directional is an advantage sometimes and in other instance is not good. Also why t-5 do so well on a reef they are more directional than halides and waste less light, also why they appear dimmer. Don talks about lumens per watt which is important but something with less lumens per watt can do a better lighting job thus reducing the overall watts.

Halides will eventually be replaced but it is a long way away yet and way to early to call it.. Plasma might kill halides. I predict fluorescent will have a place, led will have a place and plasma will hurt halides.

Accent like downlights/spots/task will be led, office will be fluorescent, warehouse/parking lots/industrial will be plasma..

Leds also do well in outside lighting sometimes because of light spillage laws.. People dont want light from like a neighboring car dealer spilling on their property.. The cut off on these things is amazing. Leds also dont come right back on after a power outage and perform well in cold weather.

Hell way back in the thread marine depot said halide sales are picking up again in the hobby.

 

[d2mini]

I just spent $250 yesterday to upgrade JUST our master bath to all LED lighting from CF Floods and incandescent vanity lighting. Yeesh.

LED are good enough for my house, not for my tank.
But I gotta do one room at a time at those prices.

 

[d2mini]

Thats because on reef tank halides waste allot of light. They spread it out and led is very directional and directs the light where it needs to be. Basically more light is bouncing around with halides

I don't see that as a waste, it's a positive IMHO and that quality of LED is what I disliked.
Not only is it visually better, but all that light bouncing around is lighting up more of my coral which improves the growth, color and PE all around the coral even underneath. No more bald coral bottoms. I also don't over-light my tank with fixtures right to the edges. I prefer to use smaller fixtures to prevent light spill out of the tank onto the floor. My tank is 7' x 2'. The T5 bulbs are 5' long and the mh reflectors are 13" square. So all in all, they run pretty efficiently in that respect.

 

[Braver69]

Problem for Halide is if enough people stop buying them like governments and warehouses and such. Then their wont be enough demand to justify having a factory making the equipment. Our hobby just wont create enough demand to keep a factory going. This is why I suggested stocking up since I can see the trend already in government and we know how slow they are. Also cheap energy will be a problem soon as well if the epa keeps cracking down on coal plants. If you cant see any of those trends well then :debi:, I guess one day you will be surprised.

Thats because on reef tank halides waste allot of light. They spread it out and led is very directional and directs the light where it needs to be. Basically more light is bouncing around with halides and hitting your eyes and bouncing off walls making them appear brighter.. That is the reason halides wont be put out by led either. They are two different types of lighting.. Led wont kill fluorescent lights either. Leds being so directional is an advantage sometimes and in other instance is not good. Also why t-5 do so well on a reef they are more directional than halides and waste less light, also why they appear dimmer.

Halides will eventually be replaced but it is a long way away yet and way to early to call it.. Plasma might kill halides. I predict fluorescent will have a place, led will have a place and plasma will hurt halides.

Accent like downlights/spots/task will be led, office will be fluorescent, warehouse/parking lots/industrial will be plasma..

Hell way back in the thread marine depot said halide sales are picking up again in the hobby.

 

[shred5]

I don't see that as a waste, it's a positive IMHO and that quality of LED is what I disliked.
Not only is it visually better, but all that light bouncing around is lighting up more of my coral which improves the growth, color and PE all around the coral even underneath. No more bald coral bottoms. I also don't over-light my tank with fixtures right to the edges. I prefer to use smaller fixtures to prevent light spill out of the tank onto the floor. My tank is 7' x 2'. The T5 bulbs are 5' long and the mh reflectors are 13" square. So all in all, they run pretty efficiently in that respect.

I mentioned that earlier.. Halides dont have as much self shading as led but they are a semi point source too and have hot spots... It can be fixed for leds though by making a well designed fixture. You would need a fixture where some of the leds shine more at angles and not straight down.. You put a row in front shinning back and a row in the back shining forward. The problem is leds fixtures are so small, but if you spread the Leds out you get spot lighting.. Tuff thing to actually do without increasing the cost of the fixture allot.....

You want less self shading t-5 is the real way to go...

Most of your post above is opinion though.

I seriously think the best lighting right now is t-5/led hybrid...