Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[d2mini]

This is not because it was LED. It is a question of wattage and some producers over extending what it can do.

My first experience with LEDs was the exact opposite.

Not sure what you mean.
4-5 high end fixtures over a 200g tank looks pretty dim, especially at the 65% or wherever you are to not burn your sps.

 

[Mikefromaz]

D2mimi..... could not help but notice your comment about how dim LED systems can look. My experience....In my ignorance when I first turned on my 250w. Equivalent system letting it sit on the tank while I read the operators manual. In a half hour at full power I managed to bleach more than half my corals. I can't even look at the glare from the sand without squinting at full power. Anyway I did compensate of course and my tank has been fine since.

 

[power boat jim]

Man, all the conversation about growth, color, etc aside.... just the thought of going back to such a dimly lit tank. I know people get used to it, or if led is the only lighting they've had they don't know any better, but that was one thing I noticed when i first when to LED... how dim the tank looked! Even at 100%. That was one of the reasons I made the switch back.

When I switched back to MH/T5 it looked like someone turned on the lights. Literally. And I let out a long, appreciative "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...." It was like stepping out into the sun on a beach in the Caribbean after getting on a plane in a snowy NYC.

I think the one difference maker is whether you have a canopy or not. I noticed that when I open the hood on the tank it does look somewhat dark. Having the top totally enclosed and painted white on the inside seems to make a very noticeable difference in making the tank look brighter. It helps even with the halides it just doesnt make as big a difference.

 

[ghostman]

Educated people don't need to insult others to prove a point.

What's unfortunate is you not reading the thread which has a lot of great info.

Great response Dennis, and avoid feeding the trolls. This thread is filled with great factual information that does not rely on "I've seen" misinformation.

 

[sirreal63]

just set 'em and forget em. They are lights for crying out loud, not an X-box.

Worthy of quote of the month. :thumbsup:

 

[d2mini]

I think the one difference maker is whether you have a canopy or not. I noticed that when I open the hood on the tank it does look somewhat dark. Having the top totally enclosed and painted white on the inside seems to make a very noticeable difference in making the tank look brighter. It helps even with the halides it just doesnt make as big a difference.

I ran my LEDs with both a canopy and open top rimless tank.
Big difference either way, but you are correct in that the white canopy does help redirect some of that light and makes it appear brighter with either system.

 

[sirreal63]

Its funny to see you all arguing down points like there's no science involved. THAT is the sign of "panties in a bunch".

When you can even admit that leds work just fine for some people. Ever wonder why they work for others and not yourselves?

That's the real question you should be asking and discussing. But talking down to others who bring up valid point shows you're weak in your arguments.

Let alone after I touch on the right questions, I get told to read the thread its already been discussed. LOL

I would really like to hear how metal halides, that have the same identical spectrum output as an led fixture can possibly have "different light". Oh what's that? You can't prove that because it would go against the entire system of physics and the measurement system as we know it?

As to the comments of me buying some radions? Don't care. Pocket change for one, but secondly I've researched them for MONTHS. And I had pretty good experiences with leds so far. But overall, even if I've got enough money to not care too much about the cost of the radions, doesn't mean I want to waste money on all the various negatives of metal halides.

I've never seen so many uneducated people in one place. Its unfortunate too because there so much information out there to learn from.

I suspect with your personality you will not be here long enough to actually learn from the people you should be thankful for. If you had actually read the thread, and others like it, you would have noticed that many of the people who were supporters of LED's early on have changed sides after observing the very thing this thread is about. Some of these people have been growing SPS for more than a decade, their experience counts for a lot.

If you have spent the time to read the thread and still cannot grasp what others are saying then the problem is one of comprehension, your lack of comprehension. Having a closed mind and a paper argument will not help you become a better reefer, and dismissing the outstanding knowledge and experience of others will not make people want to help you when you need it, and in this hobby, there are times when everyone needs help.

 

[ghostman]

Yep, here too. Dont understand what magic lives in my tank either. I just sold all my Sol blues and bought Radions. I have one MH light over the right side of the tank since I had a big oops with one of the Radions. The MH side looks dull and washed out compared to the Radions. Even my wife noticed.

Power boat Jim- thank you for your input looking from the LED success side of the discussion. I truly enjoy your input. One comment has intrigued me since you posted it. A tank lit by radions looked dull when placed under MH. Does that mean that your light settings provide the color for your corals? Are you then viewing the coral fluorescence, and not the reflective color? The reason I ask is that this would not be the case if the situation were reversed. A MH light tank would look amazing under LED with the added flouresence of the light. That's why so many noobs are dazzled at the "upgrade" to LED. Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks.

 

[JPMagyar]

Its funny to see you all arguing down points like there's no science involved. THAT is the sign of "panties in a bunch".

When you can even admit that leds work just fine for some people. Ever wonder why they work for others and not yourselves?

That's the real question you should be asking and discussing. But talking down to others who bring up valid point shows you're weak in your arguments.

Let alone after I touch on the right questions, I get told to read the thread its already been discussed. LOL

I would really like to hear how metal halides, that have the same identical spectrum output as an led fixture can possibly have "different light". Oh what's that? You can't prove that because it would go against the entire system of physics and the measurement system as we know it?

As to the comments of me buying some radions? Don't care. Pocket change for one, but secondly I've researched them for MONTHS. And I had pretty good experiences with leds so far. But overall, even if I've got enough money to not care too much about the cost of the radions, doesn't mean I want to waste money on all the various negatives of metal halides.

I've never seen so many uneducated people in one place. Its unfortunate too because there so much information out there to learn from.

Did you even read my post? Obviously not. I am not putting anyone down, nor have I ever said LEDs do not work, nor has anyone else in this thread ever said LEDs do not work or do not have an excellent place for those who want what they offer, BUT if what you want is the largest variety of intense colors with the largest variety of SPS available to do well in your reef then LEDs have not proven themselves up to the task of matching the coloration of our old standards metal halide and fluorescent.

No one here is putting you down and the reason we keep telling you to read the thread is because you make comments like the one above where in you accuse folks of not using facts. Read my entire post on the differences in the physics of LED lighting versus metal halide lighting then start an intelligent conversation using scientific papers that have studied the effects of LED light on symbiodinium THEN people will stop telling you to read the thread.

Good Grief :facepalm:

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

Ok then, still nobody answers my question.

If you have two light sources that have identical spectrum, mh and led, other than intensity, how are they different?

And don't tell me to read the thread, its a simple question, you're not making any sort of valid case.

You say mh is better? See my question above. Also saying mh is the only way to go because you saw a different experience when you switched to leds is exactly my point. You had a different experience why? The light sources if putting out identical par and spectrum are the same. There's no magical unseen, undiscovered difference between them. And for all the experience and knowledge here nobody considers its not the lights but a biological response that's different?

If you guys say there is, prove it, you just advanced science in an incredible way.

You don't think my words are worthy? Prove me wrong. Again though, saying metal halides are a better quality light is an empty argument.

Nobody is even considering that its something other than the lights causing a difference. Instead you say "oh you're wrong read the thread!"
Ya, that really proves people wrong and corrects misinformation. Its such a simple collection of facts you cant give examples. ��

And btw, sirreal I've seen you in other posts in similar arguments, I really have no interest in talking to you.

 

[VegasMike]

d2 - I am not sure what LED units you were running and what you actually compared it to, but here is my experience with just one configuration.

I had five AI Sol Blu units over each of my two 220 gallon tanks. The tanks are on either side of my fireplace in identical built in cabinets. I decided to swap out the number 2 and number 4 AI units for 250 watt MH, running XM 20k bulbs on "boosted" electronic ballasts. Those ballasts were selectable for 250, 250+ and 400 watt. I ran pendants, not retros. I finished one tank and turned them on. It was almost impossible to tell the one tank from the other visually. The tank with Sol/MH/Sol/MH/Sol looked identical to the all Sol Blu tank at 55% settings on all channels.

I recently converted the three Sol Blu units over each tank to Hydra 52's and replaced the MH units with the old Sol Blu units. At 50% white, 75% blue, 15% green/red on the Hydras and 55% on the Sol Blu (all colors), it was dramatically brighter than the other tank before it's update, not a question at all.

So, my experience with two tanks virtually next to each other and the ability to stand back 20'-30' from the tank was virtually the opposite. The LED tank was far brighter even at reduced settings given the MH setup it was compared against.

Now, I like a tank to appear more white than blue also, so I do not try to run my LED's to look like a radium and I do not get that disco effect people talk about.

Time will tell. One tank is LPS Sofitie and one is filled with SPS frags with more coming from Adam at Battle Corals after the Holidays.

I will not put the MH back on my tanks. I do not like to deal with the heat. If I am unhappy with the color, I might supplement with some T5's.

 

[rtparty]

Ok then, still nobody answers my question.

If you have two light sources that have identical spectrum, mh and led, other than intensity, how are they different?

And don't tell me to read the thread, its a simple question.

D2mini, surreal, you're not making any sort of valid case.

You say mh is better? See my question above. Also saying mh is the only way to go because you saw a different experience when you switched to leds is exactly my point. You had a different experience why? The light sources if putting out identical par and spectrum are the same. There's no magical unseen, undiscovered difference between them. And for all the experience and knowledge here nobody considers its not the lights but a biological response that's different?

If you guys say there is, prove it, you just advanced science in an incredible way.

You don't think my words are worthy? Prove me wrong. Again though, saying metal halides are a better quality light is an empty argument.

Nobody is even considering that its something other than the lights causing a difference. Instead you say "oh you're wrong read the thread!"
Ya, that really proves people wrong and corrects misinformation. Its such a simple collection of facts you cant give examples.

Have you ever seen real spectral plots for LEDs and not the smoothed out, semi-exaggerated plots that companies put out?

How about actual plots for T5s or halides?

Or do you just base it upon the misleading marketing from these manufactures?

You would never say they are identical or even close if you had. I've got real plots from a few different companies and then see what they market with and seriously question the ethics of these companies. Due to non disclosures I can't post the pics however. But if you dig deep enough on Google, you'll find them.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

Have you ever seen real spectral plots for LEDs and not the smoothed out, semi-exaggerated plots that companies put out?

How about actual plots for T5s or halides?

Or do you just base it upon the misleading marketing from these manufactures?

You would never say they are identical or even close if you had. I've got real plots from a few different companies and then see what they market with and seriously question the ethics of these companies. Due to non disclosures I can't post the pics however. But if you dig deep enough on Google, you'll find them.

I have, but I'm asking a very specific question.
If a led fixture has IDENTICAL spectral output as a mh, other than intensities/lux/par/etc, what is the difference that makes metal halide a "higher quality light"?

Yes, its a trick question.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

[sirreal63]

Which LED fixture has an identical spectral output to which MH bulb? The answer is simple, none.

 

[ghostman]

If you would read the thread, they DO NOT have identical spectral plots. They produce light with peaks and significant valleys of missing spectrum. Research and learn something rather than posting redundant (though entertaining) responses. There is no trick question.

 

[rtparty]

I have, but I'm asking a very specific question.
If a led fixture has IDENTICAL spectral output as a mh, other than intensities/lux/par/etc, what is the difference that makes metal halide a "higher quality light"?

Yes, its a trick question.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I highly doubt you have because you wouldn't be asking that question if so.

I choose not to deal in hypotheticals though. Please bring some facts to discussion. They're very helpful for your argument.

 

[alton]

Drwhoreefer I am not going to quote you but here is a response that hopefully you can understand from this back woods redneck reefer who still trust metal halide but has spent $1K + on LEDs up to this point. Comparison on two tanks: my friends 65 gallon who currently has two Vegas, one that has lost half of its leds in less than two years and my 65 that has one 250w MH pendant. His tank looks very nice, grows coral, but up to this point he has $1,100 invested in his LEDs, I have $80 for Pendant and ballast with $60 for a new lamp and it grows corals very well also. I have to replace my lamp soon and I will spend another $60. Since his fixture is out of the one year warranty he has to spend $200 for the upgrade on the bad fixture, but since it won’t match now he will be upgrading both for $400. So he has $1,500 invested to light up his 65 gallon which grows corals and looks great and saving energy but I hope you can agree a great cost to his wallet?
Fact or Theory
Last year on my 300 I had one lamp that was 24 months old and one that was brand new, to the eye no one could pick out which lamp was which with no change in color or intensity. With a PAR and foot candle meter I could tell there was about a 9% output difference, two months later the now 26 month lamp dropped rapidly to 15% so it was changed. That is a fact!
LEDs last 50,000 hours, that is a theory based on 10 years operation with a 30% drop in those ten years. I want to see a study by Ecotech that shows Gen 1 on a test tank with corals and gives the PAR values from year one to year five showing how much it dropped in output and by raising the light levels they were able to maintain the same PAR levels over those years. The same with Gen 2, Gen3, and from AI Sol’s and Reef Breeders. That way when someone talks about LEDs we can have the facts. And then if it is not too much a five to ten year warranty on their light fixture that they claim will last ten years, because for ten years and $1,500 I can buy a bunch of lamps and electricity.

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

And now you shy away from it because I bring up the limits of science on lighting.

Call it a hypothetical if you will, but the point still stands.

Even with adjustable spectral output lights, would you not say its a valid question and not hypothetical? If you get within a 5% variance from a metal halide, isn't that even enough to ask that question? After all, I'm sure mh's waver 5% on their own spectral output over 6-12 months, which you're all saying is still a valid light that's useable.

So back to my question...

 

[power boat jim]

Power boat Jim- thank you for your input looking from the LED success side of the discussion. I truly enjoy your input. One comment has intrigued me since you posted it. A tank lit by radions looked dull when placed under MH. Does that mean that your light settings provide the color for your corals? Are you then viewing the coral fluorescence, and not the reflective color? The reason I ask is that this would not be the case if the situation were reversed. A MH light tank would look amazing under LED with the added flouresence of the light. That's why so many noobs are dazzled at the "upgrade" to LED. Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks.

There could be a couple reasons my halide 1/3 of the tank doesnt look as good as the radion made it look. I would suspect since the tank is set up for LED, the MH light is too high and is being spread too thin especially using an old spider reflector. It is 20+" above the water.I think if I put it 8" It may look better. I did not adjust the LEDs to make the corals look good. I set them to match the 20k radium bulb in the MH unit Im running now so the tank would look seamless as far as light goes from one end to the other. OR its possible you are correct there is really no way to be sure. However I did put a MH back over the tank last year at the proper height for about 3 months and there was not enough change in the tank to say MH was better then LEDs for me.

If all things were equal I would not have switched from halide to LED just for the sake of switching. MH is a great light source for this hobby. LEDs make a great altenative if you cant put up with some of the problems inherent in MH lights. I needed to make LEDs work due to the intense heat that was put off by the MHs. They turned my fish room into a sauna during the summer. No one in the house was happy about this. Over the past 3-4 years running the AIs I have had as good a tank as I did running MH. Thats why I dont think changing from one light source to another source is that big a deal as long as the parameters are similar. Any problems I had keeping coral over the past couple years has been traced back to an oversite or lazyness on my part. It would have been easy to blame the lights but it would not have been true.

I will now give the Gen 3 Radions a go and expect they will be as good or better then the AI blues since they are full spectrum lights. But I first have to get all three online to find out.

 

[rtparty]

And now you shy away from it because I bring up the limits of science on lighting.

Call it a hypothetical if you will, but the point still stands.

Even with adjustable spectral output lights, would you not say its a valid question and not hypothetical? If you get within a 5% variance from a metal halide, isn't that even enough to ask that question? After all, I'm sure mh's waver 5% on their own spectral output over 6-12 months, which you're all saying is still a valid light that's useable.

So back to my question...

Your question has been answered but you won't accept that answer because it doesn't fit your bias. Nothing we can do about that.

An LED's true plot isn't within 5% of a halide's. Not even close. Again, I doubt you've seen a true plot.

But in the end, if you're happy with your tank then that's great! That's what this hobby is about.