Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[markalot]

You sure? I am not a friend of Sanjay on facebook, these photos are public.

Unlabeled but this was a recent photo posted on his facebook page.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd...._=1432568747_102d6d6f3567bdda8be2b7de9420ecc3


All photos (you have to be logged into facebook to see this): https://www.facebook.com/sanjay.joshi.792/photos

Just so this doesn't become an LED war, I agree for the most part that for proper colors and growth you need a LOT of LED's to simulate the broad reflected light of a quality MH or T5 fixture. I do not agree that LED can't achieve good coloration. Coloration is subjective though. I personally switched from LED to T5 due to coverage issues.

 

[Big E]

Theres a lot that can go into how well the LEDs work for Sps. I picked up an Ice fire that is as nice as JPs from an SPS tank with just LEDs, but some of the other corals looked like those dogs JP also posted.

Coverage, correct spectrum, and par need to be consistent across the whole tank. It's like a 3 legged table.......if one leg is missing, shorter, longer, ect., the colors will be off.

Very few LED commercial units will do all that, and that's if you happen to have the correct settings and the unit is capable of doing this with the ample number of units for overlap. They also have to have the correct configuration of diodes in the unit (# of diodes per color). I haven't seen it yet happen in pictures or in person.

DIY fixtures and/or supplementation can help quit a bit ,but if you don't know what you're doing it doesn't help. You have to understand the needs of the acros and know what your trying to build or supplement with the right LED settings.

On top of that ,if you run a rainbow of spectrums throughout the day your colors are going to suffer..............so simple, yet the LED users want all those spectrum changes & play with all the useless bells and whistles.

Halide and T5 can do all that much easier..........turn 'em on for x numbers of hours a day and that's it.

 

[dtum]

JP, out of 21 photos you did pick two that do look horrible. When I was posting in this thread I was referring to the other few. Here are some:

(I guess since others are posting references to photos it means that they are public)

 

[dtum]

And a few more

Would you say that these look to be not on par with MH to you?

 

[jda]

This makes me sound like an ahole every time, but people with a good breath and depth of actual experience know that those colors lack depth and contrast. They ABSOLUTELY are not as good as they could be. However, they might be good enough for lots of people.

Remember, that is 3 panels per 2x2 area.

 

[dtum]

This makes me sound like an ahole every time, but people with a good breath and depth of actual experience know that those colors lack depth and contrast. They ABSOLUTELY are not as good as they could be. However, they might be good enough for lots of people.

Remember, that is 3 panels per 2x2 area.

I think that this is a fair argument. To my eye the photos I've referenced are as good as it can get for those acros, if you think they can have even better colors please post a photo or two (similar to what JP did) to prove your point.

The second sentence (about 3 panels per 2x2) is not really related to this. I'm not arguing that LED are more cost effective (far from it), I'm saying that if we could have lots of LEDs, would it be possible to bring out acro colors on par with MH.

 

[power boat jim]

This makes me sound like an ahole every time, but people with a good breath and depth of actual experience know that those colors lack depth and contrast. They ABSOLUTELY are not as good as they could be. However, they might be good enough for lots of people.

Remember, that is 3 panels per 2x2 area.

Are you using a color monitor? I dont know how those colors could look any better no matter what light source you put over them.

 

[biecacka]

Dtum, hat is my exact thoughts! I am no lighting expert by any means. However I do believe that all along we have been using leds wrong. Not enough diodes to cover the tank forgetting that they are a much narrower beam of light. That is why I think we are starting to see more leds on fixtures and them more spread out. Or even pendant styles becoming more popular.
About 2-3 years ago a guy who owns a reef farm if you will nearby was getting into the marker of building led fixtures. People were going crazy of the AI sold and radion gen1 and he swore they wouldn't work yet. He built a fixture for his 24/24/24 cube with 96 leds on it. While we all thought at was overkill, the tank had great growth!! He dimmed them way down and as the corals grew he increased the intensity. The tank is still running and using the same light and he is getting good growth from everything in the tank.
So I really believe we need more than we originally thought. Now the issue becomes price(even more so than before) 3 radions in a 24-24space is crazy. My tank is 48/48/24 and to think I would need 12 radions to have the success Sanjay is having is mind blowing, not to mention there is no way I can afford them...

Corey

 

[dtum]

Dtum, hat is my exact thoughts! I am no lighting expert by any means. However I do believe that all along we have been using leds wrong. Not enough diodes to cover the tank forgetting that they are a much narrower beam of light. That is why I think we are starting to see more leds on fixtures and them more spread out. Or even pendant styles becoming more popular.
About 2-3 years ago a guy who owns a reef farm if you will nearby was getting into the marker of building led fixtures. People were going crazy of the AI sold and radion gen1 and he swore they wouldn't work yet. He built a fixture for his 24/24/24 cube with 96 leds on it. While we all thought at was overkill, the tank had great growth!! He dimmed them way down and as the corals grew he increased the intensity. The tank is still running and using the same light and he is getting good growth from everything in the tank.
So I really believe we need more than we originally thought. Now the issue becomes price(even more so than before) 3 radions in a 24-24space is crazy. My tank is 48/48/24 and to think I would need 12 radions to have the success Sanjay is having is mind blowing, not to mention there is no way I can afford them...

Corey

I believe (could be wrong) that he has 12 Radions over his tank. Now that's 500 gallon, so perhaps the footprint is 4 x 6? That means 2 Radions per 2x2?

 

[Wally.B]

Thanks for this post. (Makes me think about going to LED, from MH/T5 which I was just about to do).

I just had all my fish die, and tank torn down for going Fallow for next 3 months.
With corals in bins and rocks cleaned back in tank, I'll be making many adjustments to ensure I have proper new setup (circulation etc).
Will build an algae scrubber, and other adjustments when I start up fully again.
I kind of like the corals in a bin/frag tank. Let's me take care of them before putting PROPERLY into the tank.

I was thinking this is a good time to make the leap into LED. (Since all bulbs expire in about 3 months)
Main reason is I hated the T5 replacement every 6-8 months, and MH bulb replacements every year.
I got sloppy on bulb replacement timing, so paid the price of having algae problems. Old bulbs was probably just one factor.

With my rebuild I am considering to replace current lights with LED's, this post is making me think more about this leap to LED.

I’ll be replacing the following lights on my 90 Gal Soft/LPS coral tank (NO SPS ever):

- 90 Gal 3ft (Soft and LPS corals only). No SPS every (have separate SPS tank, on 250W 14k bulbs, with VHO and cheap LED strip)
- 2 x 150W MH (Giesemann MEGACHOME 14500K),
- T5 (39 W Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple)
- T5 (39 W Korallen Zucht Super Blue)

Was considering replacing setup above with either:
- A couple of new Radion XR30 G3's
- A couple of new Kessil 360W's

I don't want to spend serous money, for something less. That would drive me into grief. Since this would be for many years, and no going back for me.

One reason why I considered LED was power, heat, bulb replacements (effort & cost), AND BETTER COLOR (pop) ON CORALS. My other SPS tank needs the MH bulbs for growth and color.
However I enjoy looking at it with my homemade $20 RGB LED (5050 SMD) strip which is on most of the day in PURE WHITE, or BLUE at night. DIY LED lights

I like the not so intense lighting look, since the tank considering replacement is between kitchen and family room, where we eat and watch TV.
I just might try an compliment my other tank with a couple the SAME DIY LED STRIPS for off MH light time. Before making the pricy leap.

Any opinions based on your experiences.

If anyone does have experience with my two LED choices, your feedback would be appreciated. I haven't had the opportunity to see either in person.

 

[JPMagyar]

JP, out of 21 photos you did pick two that do look horrible. When I was posting in this thread I was referring to the other few. Here are some:

And, I agree, but I feel you are ignoring the whole point of this thread and my last sentence in my post. Yes, everyone on this thread knows LEDs can and do grow some very nice corals, BUT the colors are less intense, using LEDs is complicated, growth patterns are different, and the initial cost can be and is for most folks totally outrageous, and most if not all LEDs manufactured to date are not designed for easy replacement of the LEDs when they wear out. All in all metal halide is simpler, cheaper, and better. This is a hobby and people should use whatever light they enjoy most, but I see no evidence to date showing how LEDs are the equal of metal halide.


Metal Halide Red Planet . . .

LED Red Planet . . .

My Red Planet . . . notice the saturation of color in the tips.

Again, it's not that LEDs don't do the job; it's just not the same.


Also the growth formations are often tighter are odd shaped and the patterns seen in LED pictures of the same growth formations lead me to believe it's the light and not some other issue . . .

My openly growing Hawkins Ech . . .

Dense LED grown Hawkins Ech . . . nice color different growth . . .

No doubt you are right that some of Sanjay's corals are outstanding, but the issue is not all and not in the same way as a metal halide lit tank. At the risk of repeating myself ridiculously too much . . . metal halide is "set it and forget it" with great results. Not so much with LED.

 

[biecacka]

Jp, I do agree with you that another big issue with leds is the constant tinkering people do. On my current set up which is a radium, it turns on and off via apex. It's that simple. From day one until forever. However, I think people play too much with leds. I want to switch over to leds and have someone say, "Corey for 1st 2 months run this channel at ?% and this channel at ?% and so on and so forth. Then in 3 months switch to these numbers. Then if your growth is this go here, if your growth is that go here." This way it takes human error out of the way. While I know this isn't possible, I hope to mimic some other reefers that have had success with LEDs on their tanks. For now, that's the best we can do.

Corey

 

[d2mini]

Here's two different MH red planet colonies from my tank.
Bottom one is higher/closer to the light.

 

[JPMagyar]

Awesome Dennis!! WOW!

But Dtum notice the difference in growth patterns. The LED Red Planet is much more dense as well as slightly less color saturated.

 

[shermanator]

I'm by no means an expert on lighting (and I wouldn't use LEDs without supplementing with T5s -- and I would use MH if my wife would let me have them in the house), but are these color comparisons between MH and LED fair if the pictures are taken under such different lighting temperatures?

In many of the comparisons (especially this post: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23429044&postcount=3707), it looks like the MH grown corals are shot under very blue, almost actinic lighting while the LEDs are under more daylight color). Is that really a fair comparison of color?

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

I'm by no means an expert on lighting (and I wouldn't use LEDs without supplementing with T5s -- and I would use MH if my wife would let me have them in the house), but are these color comparisons between MH and LED fair if the pictures are taken under such different lighting temperatures?

In many of the comparisons (especially this post: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23429044&postcount=3707), it looks like the MH grown corals are shot under very blue, almost actinic lighting while the LEDs are under more daylight color). Is that really a fair comparison of color?

+1
I've had metal halides, t5's, and a couple led setups now. Hands down the led's win for customizable coloration. But after doing timed feedings and dosing red sea colors, I notice better coloration with led's than I've ever seen with the others.

Now I just need to get my buddy to come over with his camera and macro lenses. My corals look just as good as any totm/toty corals now.

Of course I don't believe its all because of led's. Just as I would say the same under halides, the colors at the time I had those were ALMOST as nice as they are now, but again, its not all the lights.

 

[Squidmotron]

As it happens, I have a Hawkins under Radions that looks identical to the darker blue picture supposedly representative of halides.

 

[JPMagyar]

As it happens, I have a Hawkins under Radions that looks identical to the darker blue picture supposedly representative of halides.

By all means share a picture but I would emphasize that I showed the Hawkins for growth pattern comparisons. Hawkins color under LEDs is usually excellent, and the tanks that I have seen with ReefBreeder LED fixtures have great growth patterns but that's exactly my point.


LED fixtures are all so different in their impact. Radium metal halide is simple, consistent, and proven to be great at growth AND color for ALL corals.

Not to mention I started this latest round of discourse with two photos of corals that looked dismal. Most of Sanjays corals were beautiful so to say other parameters may be the cause is to me to ignore the obvious answer that the Lokani and the Ice Fire just don't like LEDs.

 

[dtum]

And, I agree, but I feel you are ignoring the whole point of this thread and my last sentence in my post. Yes, everyone on this thread knows LEDs can and do grow some very nice corals, BUT the colors are less intense, using LEDs is complicated, growth patterns are different, and the initial cost can be and is for most folks totally outrageous, and most if not all LEDs manufactured to date are not designed for easy replacement of the LEDs when they wear out. All in all metal halide is simpler, cheaper, and better. This is a hobby and people should use whatever light they enjoy most, but I see no evidence to date showing how LEDs are the equal of metal halide.

JPMagyar, I was not arguing that LEDs can match MH in all the terms that you've listed. In my opinion right now MH is far superior than LED in almost all factors and this thread argues about it quite thoroughly.

One point that was also argued in this thread was that it is simply not possible to achieve good (great?) coloration in high end SPS acros with LEDs even if money is not an issue and you can throw as many top of the line LEDs at it. That the spectrum is simply wrong and great coloration is not possible. These photos show me that this is not the case.

I do agree that in almost every aspect MH is a much easier way to achieve good results and not kill your corals.

 

[dtum]

Awesome Dennis!! WOW!

But Dtum notice the difference in growth patterns. The LED Red Planet is much more dense as well as slightly less color saturated.

That's a valid point and I agree with it, thank you for pointing it out. If anything, I was always thinking that the growth pattern would be reversed - denser and bushier under MH; seems that I was wrong. (Dennis did have his RP under both, so not sure if all the growth pattern we are now seeing is attributable to the time under MH).