Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Wazzel]

Why are people hung up on reflectors, they are not needed with LED. Just spread out the LEDs.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Your opinion that reads:


is mostly innuendo with no facts to back it up except "general perceptions" that can be used for anything.....

The "infancy" I mentioned is the foundation of the very paper you linked to and derived from the facts in the sources cited for the paper.

RE: general perceptions: The general state of technology production and R&D are a direct result of demand and adoption as dicated by need vs cost. These are not "general perceptions", they are time tested tenants of any industry. The world in general is not demanding first and foremost "high CRI" white lite sources, they are demanding inexpensive CAPEX and C2G solutions that are "good enough" to adopt compared to the current status quo (FL and arc lighting) that account for hundreds of billions of dollars of worldwide CAPEX. Even we, the home "light" users are a small market compared to industrial/commercial.

So (again) it is not that "white" phosphors for LEDs are not being developed, they are. It is not they they will not continue to evolve, they will. THe point is that the "demand" to make them better pales in comparison to the demand to make the emitters, fixtures and drivers CHEAPER and BRIGHTER per unit area, ergo "more efficient" in both terms of procurement and lifetime ROI. Improving CRI is a cost driver at many levels and counter to the demand (cheap and good enough). The impetus for the bulk of the consumers to buy in (commercial/industrial) is to make them cheaper alternatives to what they already use. Adding the hand of government in to distort the market really only makes matters worse, by forcing adoption at higher costs and further hampering the drive to improve color rendering. Manufacturers want to increase profit and consumers want to decrease price. The (again) "consumer" that is the demand driver in this case is the hundreds of millions of commercial/industrial forced-adopters that are looking for "good enough" at a price point they can swallow. The supply driver is the lighting industry that wants to deliver "good enough at a profitable point. We in the niche fringes of hobby, science, photography, etc. do not constitute enough demand to drive R&D at a high rate. It will happen as the technology matures, but it (again) will be slowed by the bulk of the demand not giving a rats behind about CRI when it is put into context of cost.

 

[markalot]

Why are people hung up on reflectors, they are not needed with LED. Just spread out the LEDs.

In my opinion I don't think that's true, which is why I see two problems, coverage and blending. I don't think light coming from a blue diode and a white diode and hitting the coral at the same time is the same as blended light coming from a single location or locations when reflected. I could be dead wrong on this, it's a hunch, but it conveniently explains some LED issues even when the coverage is there.

 

[oreo57]

So (again) it is not that "white" phosphors for LEDs are not being developed, they are. It is not they they will not continue to evolve, they will. THe point is that the "demand" to make them better pales in comparison to the demand to make the emitters, fixtures and drivers CHEAPER and BRIGHTER per unit area, ergo "more efficient" in both terms of procurement and lifetime ROI.

We will have to agree to disagree here.. Color fidelity and commercial usage go hand in hand..
your splitting hairs...
Both high CRI and high lumen output is being sought.. you could have a 100000 lumen LEd and if the light color sucks there will be little demand..

See complaints of color using sodium vapor or mh street lights as a minor example.. Police hate them..

http://gizmodo.com/led-streetlights-will-change-hollywood-and-make-every-c-1514840416

As such, he suggests, the switch to LED really is a historic change for the visual definition of Los Angeles—so much so (and this is my comment, not Kendricken's) that we might someday find ourselves seriously arguing over whether a city's artificial lights, due to their unique color scheme, could be justifiably subject to historic preservation laws.

Following the economic imperative to use the most cost-effective lighting—high-pressure sodium lights consume half as much energy as mercury-vapor lamps and can last up to 16,000 hours longer—transportation departments and cities embraced sodium light. It was as though someone said “Fiat lux sulfurea—“Let there be light from hell.” The relentless spread of sodium streetlights is documented in NASA night photographs from space: New York City and Los Angeles are circuit boards of glowing orange, and Long Beach, one of the world’s busiest ports, is a flare of tarnished gold. It’s even worse in the United Kingdom, where 85 percent of streetlights use sodium. The jaundiced weirdness of sodium light has become a vexing challenge to photographers (one filmmaker, Tenolian Bell, called it “the ugliest light known to the cinematographer”); movie cameras simulate its color by using a gel filter named Bastard Amber. Significantly, retailers have avoided inflicting the unpleasantness of sodium lights on their customers—most commercial parking lots and shopping malls use the costlier white metal halide lights.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-light-fantastic/308545/

. White light sources have been shown to double driver peripheral vision and increase driver brake reaction time at least 25%. When S/P light calculations are used, HPS lamp performance needs to be reduced by a minimum value of 75%.

http://www.grahlighting.eu/learning-centre/street-lighting-technology-comparison
color goes hand in hand w/ intensity and cost........

Last words about this by me .. it is a side unimportant issue really..
but keep in mind once "industry" goes away from HPS and MH availability will drop like a rock..

 

[DavidinGA]

Popcorn....

 

[mhucasey]

Both high CRI and high lumen output is being sought.. you could have a 100000 lumen LEd and if the light color sucks there will be little demand..

I have seen different for home lighting products up till now. I have a few very recently produced LED bulbs that are "better" for CRI and output, but the first three bulbs I got flickered at 60HZ and were horribly garish, and two of the three burned out in less than two years. LED is push push pushed into consumer's hands at the cost of 5-10 bucks a bulb using guilt tactics to get consumers to swallow horrible color rendition because they are "saving the environment". They have created demand because there are dollars to be made...

 

[BeanAnimal]

We will have to agree to disagree here.. Color fidelity and commercial usage go hand in hand..
your splitting hairs...
Both high CRI and high lumen output is being sought.. you could have a 100000 lumen LEd and if the light color sucks there will be little demand..

Respectfully, I don't think you understand the scale of the demographics and demands you are engaged in a discussion about.

Your personal desires, preferences and perspectives are being applied to a market that is vastly greater than your arguments appear to encompass. You are applying tidbits of "fun factoids" to support your position, and while in their own context they are valid, they really have little to do with the current bulk of the luminaire adoption or the direction and speed of product development.

but keep in mind once "industry" goes away from HPS and MH availability will drop like a rock..

You are only seeing half of the picture (no pun) from the perspective of "CRI" or some other aesthetic metric. The real force in play is the economics of a "good enough" solution and at this stage of the game, the color rendering is not the driver, it is cost to produce and cost to adopt. A large part of the demand driver is adoption by force, (again) making the "quality" even less relevant when compared to cost. This is economics at its most very basic, be it supply side, demand side, or anything in between.

I (for one) would love to see both the emitters and the phosphors drastically improve. I (like the rest of us) will (again) have to wait for industry to demand what we need and allow it to trickle down to our hobby, home or whatever. I am still waiting on that aerogel insulation and hydrogen fuel cell to be cost effective enough to buy into... (not that LEDs are that far out on the curve), The point (yet again): We don't get technology at all, or at least at a reasonable cost until it is mainstream in industrial/commercial applications.

 

[Wazzel]

In my opinion I don't think that's true, which is why I see two problems, coverage and blending. I don't think light coming from a blue diode and a white diode and hitting the coral at the same time is the same as blended light coming from a single location or locations when reflected. I could be dead wrong on this, it's a hunch, but it conveniently explains some LED issues even when the coverage is there.

Maybe. I think there is enough blending with the pucks. Make smaller pucks, but use more of them is my idea. I think the single diodes spread out is not the best solution.

 

[Wazzel]

I agree with bean, until a demand for special diodes comes around in sufficient quantity or the cost to manufacture special diodes comes down to make low batch sizes profitable we are going to have to adapt to existing tech. I am not an LED insider, but it looks like most of the focus with LED lighting is just to be able to see, which is relatively low spec light.

 

[oreo57]

I agree with bean, until a demand for special diodes comes around in sufficient quantity or the cost to manufacture special diodes comes down to make low batch sizes profitable we are going to have to adapt to existing tech. I am not an LED insider, but it looks like most of the focus with LED lighting is just to be able to see, which is relatively low spec light.

not sure what you mean by "special" unless you are referring to a "Radion" LED.. VERY little real demand for such a thing.. Or any "old tech" color emulation of hugely punctuated spectrum lighting......
that ship has sailed

as to high CRI and efficient diodes.. Ships be a docking..


"IF" violet based emitters can be improved it will also shift the bar.. Yugi is a bit as they say "ahead of their time"..

Providing efficacy of 125 lumens per watt with color-quality greater than 90 CRI, the LMH2+ is the only LED module that allows lighting manufacturers to achieve a system efficacy of 100 lumens-per-watt with high light quality.

Hand in hand..
http://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/cree-introduces-industry-s-highest-performing-led-module-0001

 

[sirreal63]

Oreo, keeping in line with the title of this thread, are you dumping LEDs and going back to halides? If so, your posts do not seem to indicate it, if not, then perhaps you might consider creating a thread more in line with the posts you are making. This read has been off topic way too much, which I understand how that happens, but there are many people who are actually interested in the topic as it originally started.

 

[oreo57]

Oreo, keeping in line with the title of this thread, are you dumping LEDs and going back to halides? If so, your posts do not seem to indicate it, if not, then perhaps you might consider creating a thread more in line with the posts you are making. This read has been off topic way too much, which I understand how that happens, but there are many people who are actually interested in the topic as it originally started.

sorry about the divergence.. carry on ..........2 1/2 years and 4139 posts later..where have we got to??

08/15/2012, 07:07 PM

Maybe a summary would help..

 

[overexposed]

Summary: a bunch of people tried LED and didn't like the results they got, so they switched to back to MH and for the most part were glad they did. And many times along the way some LED preachers came in here and tried to convince us that we are stupid or something.

And back and forth ad infinitum.

 

[rgulrich]

What Phil said.

Ray

 

[KafudaFish]

sorry about the divergence.. carry on ..........4 1/2 years and 4139 posts later..where have we got to??

Maybe a summary would help..

I don't think it is 2.15.2017 but I will try.

People tried leds. Some were unhappy so they went back to what works. Most were happy again. Some pro led people blamed it on user error. Additional discussions continued with charts and graphs documenting why others were wrong. Eventually previous pro led people admitted to the limitations of leds and made statements that the next model out will be the real deal or if one spent $12,000.00 on a light system it would work.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[oreo57]

Summary: a bunch of people tried LED and didn't like the results they got, so they switched to back to MH and for the most part were glad they did. And many times along the way some LED preachers came in here and tried to convince us that we are stupid or something.

And back and forth ad infinitum.

Define a bunch.. 6 or more???
how many new LED reef tanks when up and running last year?.. Better get out there a-preaching ..."all hail the Radion".. (sg reference)

I don't think one is inherently better than another photon wise.. period

I never said one should switch one way or another.. thus the "scolding" earlier. You want preaching I'd look in the mirror..

The worst thing I said is I think you "can" emulate Radions w/ LED's What a sacrilege..

THERE is absolutely NO scientific basis to believe photons from a MH are "different" than photons from an LED. If anyone believes that they moved from fact to religion..
That there are different individual wavelength differences between all lighting.. sure. Bottom line is that you "should" be able to match any light w/ another within reason. Of course some practical considerations come into play..
but the bottom line .. a 500nm photon is a 500nm photon regardless of source and when it hits the coral it too could care less where it came from...

 

[Wazzel]

2.16.2018

Mh are no longer available and former Mh users embrace LED and are excited that it is just as good as Mh or T-5.

 

[oreo57]

I don't think it is 2.15.2017 but I will try.

opps in a hurry corrected..

 

[sirreal63]

where have we got to??.

He have got back to where we were before the Solaris hit the scene, and for those who have gone back, very few found no difference.

Define a bunch.. 6 or more??

This is one of those instances where actually reading a whole thread is valuable. If you have not invested the time to read the whole thread, then how can you really comment on it? I know you won't bother to read it all, so you also won't bother to tally up the numbers. No one will spoon feed the statistics to you, but consider that PEC who had stopped production of the Phoenix 14k has decided to produce it again. That probably tells you nothing, but it should.

If you would like to be taken more seriously, read the thread, understand how and why it came to be then decide if your input is worthwhile, it may be but then again? I am fairly certain nothing you say will change anyone's mind, they have their own experience to draw on. :beer:

 

[oreo57]

He have got back to where we were before the Solaris hit the scene, and for those who have gone back, very few found no difference.



This is one of those instances where actually reading a whole thread is valuable. If you have not invested the time to read the whole thread, then how can you really comment on it? I know you won't bother to read it all, so you also won't bother to tally up the numbers. No one will spoon feed the statistics to you, but consider that PEC who had stopped production of the Phoenix 14k has decided to produce it again. That probably tells you nothing, but it should.

If you would like to be taken more seriously, read the thread, understand how and why it came to be then decide if your input is worthwhile, it may be but then again? I am fairly certain nothing you say will change anyone's mind, they have their own experience to draw on. :beer:

Food for thought:

From Professor Walter- St. Mary’s College of Maryland University

It is very clear that over all growth was enhanced by TMC Ocean blues. We are processing zooxantheallae counts, total protein analysis, total chlorophyll etc through stats now.
An interesting aside: Late in the afternoon of the 19-21 (New moon) Most of the Galaxia under LED illumination spawned (several hundred colonies). The water was nearly opaque with gametes down current from the coral. Both the eggs and sperm were viable and fertilization resulted in viable embryos although I only followed the development of a few to the 8 and 16 cell stage.

None of the 10 colonies under VHO’s and none of the 10 under Halide in this experiment spawned. None of the hundreds that did spawn on this occasion did so over all of the years that they were under halides or VHO’s

http://aquariumledstudy.com/

a side note: It is almost impossible to be "taken seriously" by someone who has already made up their mind, unless, of course,they agree with you ..