Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[redwhiteandblue]

I too am converting to halide, I really love everything led has to offer (I have used sols and 52s since Jan 13. However, I cannot get these great colors I have seen, I have the growth, but being clueless as to what variable is causing my coloration issues. I am choosing to eliminate the lighting variable. If I can't get thinags going with 250 radiums, I know the problems have lied elsewhere the past two years. time will tell, but I plan to hold on to my hydra 52s and continue to play around with them on the frag tank. I have made it a point this year to try and keep things simple, and for me, going old school halide seems logical.

 

[power boat jim]

I too am converting to halide, I really love everything led has to offer (I have used sols and 52s since Jan 13. However, I cannot get these great colors I have seen, I have the growth, but being clueless as to what variable is causing my coloration issues. I am choosing to eliminate the lighting variable. If I can't get thinags going with 250 radiums, I know the problems have lied elsewhere the past two years. time will tell, but I plan to hold on to my hydra 52s and continue to play around with them on the frag tank. I have made it a point this year to try and keep things simple, and for me, going old school halide seems logical.

You can try just a few hours of MH with a slightly lower setting on the LEDs. The combination of the two is working well here. :beer:

 

[Wazzel]

If you post your tank on a thread and its not top notch, ragging on it is not cool.

With the exception that if you state that your tank proves that something works, whether its lighting, filtration, supplements, etc., then a picture of your tank is a good way to bolster your argument, but respectful criticism can be applied.

The core posters of this thread are very discerning, and I think newer posters miss some of the detail about what this thread has become. The core isn't talking much about energy savings or bulb replacement costs, they are talking about achieving the ultimate best results in SPS corals. A tank that most people would find amazing or at least very good could still get observations from the true SPS junkies. It's like cooking for Gordon Ramsay...don't be surprised if he finds something to criticize...

I prefer to deal with people of a better caliber than Gordon Ramsay. I have nothing nice to say about that man. Being good at something is no justification to treat people the way he does.

 

[JPMagyar]

Question of the day: Can metal halide match the colors created by T5 . . . .

Here are some corals grown by Krzystof Tryc. I think green, blue, purple is easy, but yellow, pink and red are REALLY hard to find and then make colorful, but I think these are the finest examples I have ever seen.

I believe I have acquired the yellow coral and the red coral so I'll be curious to see if I can come anywhere close to these colors.

Is there any chance the colors are slightly photoshopped? Hmmm, really doubt it knowing Krzystof, but then again,

Anyways, just rhetorical ranting

 

[redwhiteandblue]

You can try just a few hours of MH with a slightly lower setting on the LEDs. The combination of the two is working well here. :beer:

That's kind of my plan. I want to run my ai sols in between the two halides. Sol/halide/sol/halide/sol

 

[d2mini]

Well it does matter if you understand leds. The led in the fixture it's self is are always changing, how much wattage is run to each led how it's made who made the led it all matters. And if MH was the end all be all then why do people supplement with T5HO shading or not enough actinic!? FYI I had shading problems with MH on a 36 in tank not enough light near the ends too! I'm getting way better coverage with 2 leds lights than MH . Also the problem with finding a setting that everyone agrees is the best is because with that kind of control nobody can agree. As in I think 40 across the board works great! The next guy will say no you have to run the red at 41 to get even better results the next guy says no 43 and on. You don't have that control with MH so you don't have the argument about it! It's all subjective. FYI I have seen where a person posted a pic of there led lit tank. You said it looked good but would look better and be healthier under MH. You can't prove that. I will believe scientific research and studies. This is all Opinions there is nothing based on facts and real scientific research here.

1) And why is it always changing? Because it's not good enough yet. But that still doesn't answer my question of why there isn't a solid go-to light schedule for any of the lights that have been out for several years. Nothing has changed in those fixtures. By now you'd think somebody would have figured out the magic combo. Or a few magic combos.

2) I supplement with T5 for a few reasons. A) I get that dawn/dusk effect, B) I extend my viewing period, C) I can tweak the color a little, D) I can get even more spread without adding additional MH. The MH/T5 combo is my favorite, and I plan on adding a blue reefbrite strip at some point, too.

3) Yes, you would most likely need more than one MH for a 36" tank. I got away with one on my 36" cube but only because I had 4 T5 as well.

4) All that control is part of the problem, but if you are a control freak, more power to you. I prefer to buy a few bulbs and be done with it, while I spend my time enjoying my tank and watching my coral grow. No one can agree on the settings because no one has found that magic combo that really really works. It's all meh, with plenty of room for improvement.

5) I said something like it looked good but I believed it may look even better under MH. Of course this is opinion. Most of this hobby is nothing but opinion. But it's opinion based on experience. I can't prove it in his tank because I'm not going to fly out there and install a MH and/or T5. But I already proved it in my tank and provide the photos. Saying MH didn't work for you because you tried to run a single bulb over a 36" tank and didn't get it fully lit end to end is kind of silly. I had coral in my tank that weren't growing because they weren't getting enough light under LED. I could have added more fixtures which would have solved that problem but this was cost prohibitive.

I really don't see why this has to be an argument. I posed a serious question about a technology that I'm all for improving, and which everybody knows seriously needs improvement.
Have you seen the Lani led panels? That IMHO is the only company moving in the right direction.



www.everydayreef.com

 

[power boat jim]

That's kind of my plan. I want to run my ai sols in between the two halides. Sol/halide/sol/halide/sol

I think you will find that to be a real productive combination if done correctly.

Joe, those are beautiful colors. I wouldnt accuse anyone of photoshopping without any reason. I havebeen able to keep yellow coral for the first time using the LED MH combo. It went green under the LEDS and changed back to bright yellow under just a few hours a day of MH added to the lighting schedule.

 

[mhucasey]

Krzystof Tryc's colors are so ridiculously good that it isn't too strange to imagine that some "photo enhancement" is at play. Then you see his videos, which pretty much show the same thing:
https://youtu.be/OGMrT1vHqpQ
Its one thing to tweak a single still image, a video is a different animal. No enhancement there.

 

[firebirdude]

^^^^ Those colors ARE ridiculously good. Calling photo/videoshop should be a compliment to him. Think he's all T5's? One of his videos says 10 x 80W T5s.


I used all LEDs for nearly 2 years. Thought I was doing ok. Until I started visiting other peoples tanks more and more. Not just that their tank was more colorful, but when I'd get a frag from them, keep it for 3 months, then return and see the mother colony in their tank and wonder what the heck happened to mine. lol All my colors were washed out. It's not that the corals were bleached really, they were just pale. And stayed that way for their entire life, while actually growing at an acceptable pace. I'm all halide now.

 

[mhucasey]

^^^^ Those colors ARE ridiculously good. Calling photo/videoshop should be a compliment to him. Think he's all T5's? One of his videos says 10 x 80W T5s.


I used all LEDs for nearly 2 years. Thought I was doing ok. Until I started visiting other peoples tanks more and more. Not just that their tank was more colorful, but when I'd get a frag from them, keep it for 3 months, then return and see the mother colony in their tank and wonder what the heck happened to mine. lol All my colors were washed out. It's not that the corals were bleached really, they were just pale. And stayed that way for their entire life, while actually growing at an acceptable pace. I'm all halide now.

You are correct, 10X80 Watt T5 only. He tried an ATI LED Powermodule but went back to the 10 bulb T5 only. He stated that under the LEDs he saw some coral colors fade.

His colors are off the charts but it's not just the lighting. He carefully selects very colorful coral specimens and then is able to maintain the color in his reef. No type of lighting will cause a coral to produce colors that are not in the coral's genetic makeup.

 

[Jonnywhoop]

How do you guys manage heat for MH pendants? I am interested in trying MH in my next tank with LED supplements.

 

[Big E]

Question of the day: Can metal halide match the colors created by T5 .

I personally don't think so..........the right combo of T5's can't be matched by any lighting for acro colors.

The only thing missing is the glimmer lines.........that's the one trade off.

 

[Big E]

There are plenty of LED lit tanks with good looking SPS, but I don;t think that's the real issue.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/153-tank-of-the-month

Lots of research and a LOT of fixtures. It could be argued color would be better under 20K radiums but that's subjective. Anyway, it's nowhere close to plug and play just like MH was not plug in play years ago and T5 had its own issues.



I think a lot of luck goes into it as well. It appears he chose lighting levels that happen to work.

From his write up---------

"The lights cycle has 12 hours of duration starting at 8:00AM and ending at 8:00PM with an 1 hour ramp in rise and dusk."

I've told many LED users to stop with the kaleidoscope of colors throughout the day..........it's a deterrent. The spectrum needs to be constant for most of the duration. An hour or so on each end is fine for dawn/dusk but that's it.

 

[oreo57]

There are plenty of LED lit tanks with good looking SPS, but I don;t think that's the real issue.

I think a lot of luck goes into it as well. It appears he chose lighting levels that happen to work.

570W of LEDs w/ a 2012 "vintage" fixture.. and he got "lucky"..
no bias there..

 

[gablett]

1) And why is it always changing? Because it's not good enough yet. But that still doesn't answer my question of why there isn't a solid go-to light schedule for any of the lights that have been out for several years. Nothing has changed in those fixtures. By now you'd think somebody would have figured out the magic combo. Or a few magic combos.

2) I supplement with T5 for a few reasons. A) I get that dawn/dusk effect, B) I extend my viewing period, C) I can tweak the color a little, D) I can get even more spread without adding additional MH. The MH/T5 combo is my favorite, and I plan on adding a blue reefbrite strip at some point, too.

3) Yes, you would most likely need more than one MH for a 36" tank. I got away with one on my 36" cube but only because I had 4 T5 as well.

4) All that control is part of the problem, but if you are a control freak, more power to you. I prefer to buy a few bulbs and be done with it, while I spend my time enjoying my tank and watching my coral grow. No one can agree on the settings because no one has found that magic combo that really really works. It's all meh, with plenty of room for improvement.

5) I said something like it looked good but I believed it may look even better under MH. Of course this is opinion. Most of this hobby is nothing but opinion. But it's opinion based on experience. I can't prove it in his tank because I'm not going to fly out there and install a MH and/or T5. But I already proved it in my tank and provide the photos. Saying MH didn't work for you because you tried to run a single bulb over a 36" tank and didn't get it fully lit end to end is kind of silly. I had coral in my tank that weren't growing because they weren't getting enough light under LED. I could have added more fixtures which would have solved that problem but this was cost prohibitive.

I really don't see why this has to be an argument. I posed a serious question about a technology that I'm all for improving, and which everybody knows seriously needs improvement.
Have you seen the Lani led panels? That IMHO is the only company moving in the right direction.



www.everydayreef.com

I got to agree here. The other guy mentioned scientific evidence. I think you could fill several hard drives with photos of and scientific readings from successful MH and T5 tanks. Why cant the led companies compile that data, i.e. par, spectrum peaks, etc. and make an led combination that mimics what works. There is no need for hundreds of settings or complete control to grow coral. I cant change anything about my radium, and you know what, I dont want to. Cuz it works. It should not be that hard, if the technology is actually capable of it, to mimic the intensity and spectrum of another light source with infinite controls and led selections. Yet it hasnt happened.

I agree it may well get there, but its not there yet. Ill buy my first flying car when it proves itself. LED is just not to the point it needs to be for the ultra picky, ultra anal SPS fanatic. Yes we are nit picking, as we should.

I'm not trying to make myself feel good about switching from LED back to MH. I actually for years tried to make myself feel good about switching from MH to LED. Convincing myself that color issue was something else. That LEDs were saving me money and that it would come around once it had some time on the tank. I so totally wish that it had been the truth. Now Im back where I started after selling my MH setup at a loss, paying a premium for LEDs, selling those at a loss, and buying a new MH setup at a premium. A well respected member here talks often of what is best practice for a reef tank. And he is always trying to find the answer to that question. I feel for the time being, MH and T5 are best practice. And I do honestly feel LED is very close to best practice for supplementation and dawn/dusk.

 

[markalot]

570W of LEDs w/ a 2012 "vintage" fixture.. and he got "lucky"..
no bias there..

Care to explain what you mean?

 

[Wazzel]

From his write up---------

"The lights cycle has 12 hours of duration starting at 8:00AM and ending at 8:00PM with an 1 hour ramp in rise and dusk."

I've told many LED users to stop with the kaleidoscope of colors throughout the day..........it's a deterrent. The spectrum needs to be constant for most of the duration. An hour or so on each end is fine for dawn/dusk but that's it.

I give the same advice when I see charts that are all over the place. The sun does not do that, why should your lights. My graph has all of 6 inflection points. I did a straight line parabola approximation.

 

[markalot]

From his write up---------

"The lights cycle has 12 hours of duration starting at 8:00AM and ending at 8:00PM with an 1 hour ramp in rise and dusk."

I've told many LED users to stop with the kaleidoscope of colors throughout the day..........it's a deterrent. The spectrum needs to be constant for most of the duration. An hour or so on each end is fine for dawn/dusk but that's it.

Is this the same for T5 and MH? I read a lot of MH users like to frame the MH time with a couple of hours of T5 on either side. I ramp my LED strips up over an hour, then turn on just the blue T5, then all T5 for 6 hours. It seems to me (without any evidence to back it up) that as the angle of the sun over the water changes the spectrum will change as well. The sun overhead is going through less water than the sun at a steep angle. This doesn't consider the inherent spectral changes of the LED strips as power is changed though. Perhaps that's the main point?

 

[brad65ford]

I would agree with that. Its so hard to know where to go with LEDs. I used an apogee par meter to get as close as I could to par with the MH. In fact even at 100% I couldnt get the par levels I was getting. So I figured Id start somewhere in the middle and work my way up and it promptly bleached everything. I dont think a par meter works when transitioning to a new light source. From led to led or mh to mh, yea thats great but I think its to relative. There is no doubt they are powerful. I dont doubt they will grow coral. But growing and thriving are different to me. I went from 3 - 250 watt Lumenarc mini reflectors running 250 watt radiums 20k on ice cap electronic ballasts. It was pretty blue and I know they were not running at peak par on those ballasts. I switched to 5 panels of reef breeder leds. Almost completely covered my water surface with leds. Thats 275 3 watt leds. 60 degree optics to get par on the bottom of a 30" tank.

A few observations:
1. Even at 100% the tank looked dark and purple. First thing my wife said when she walked in was, wow it looks so dark.
2. Definition was poor. Probably more to do with the spectrum than anything, but it looked too sterile.
3. Growth on underside of coral stopped and died. I had great light wrap with the halides, not with the leds.
4. Disco effect. Even with so many leds so spread out mounted pretty high off the water you could still see it.
5. Color faded. Probably some to do with spectrum just not showing true colors as well. But it just wasnt the same. Colors faded and looked washed out. Its so hard to describe in works, but the tank lost its pop.
6. I had to run them over 12 hours a day to get any growth.

I ran those fixtures for almost 2 years. I wanted to give them an honest chance. I had myself convinced I was saving more in electricity than I was. I finally said to myself that was enough. I was looking through photos of my tank and was totally stunned how far it had fallen from what it was. It had been a while since I looked at the pictures and couldnt believe it. It was then I decided I have this tank to enjoy, not to try experiments with, not to try to save a few bucks, not to impress people that I have the newest technology. I enjoyed it when it looked like that. Thats what I want. I promptly got 3 lumenarc mini pendants with glass shields, 250 watt radium 20ks and ran them correctly on luxcore 250-400 ballasts at the HQI setting. Amazed how much whiter it was. It was a huge adjustment visually. When they first lit up I stood back and with a heavy sigh said "thats it". Thats what I was missing. It looks like the ocean now. Its only been about a month, but corals like goniopora are opening again with amazing red colors. My only surviving SPS from that picture, yellow humulus, is as stunning as ever. I've gotten over 40 SPS frags in the past few weeks and all of them are even more colorful than when I received them. I get that beautiful shimmer again. My definition is back. Its like looking at my tank in HD again. Ive got a long road ahead to get back to its former TOTM glory, but it will get there.

Im not saying LEDs are useless. I still use royal blues to supplement the MH and to extend the lighting period with sunrise and sunset since I only have the main lights on for 8 hours. And Im not at all saying this is gospel. Many have LED and love them. Im happy for you and that it works for you. It didnt for me for more than one reason. I guess my sole recommendation and moral of the story is make you tank look the way that makes you happy!

Wow 5 fixtures!!! No wonder why you bleached them. These fixtures are crazy powerful wonder if you didn't have the at the right intensity during that period or if there were other variables into play. The owner of Battlecorals switched over all his tanks to RB coming from running just about everything from MH/T5 and other LED's. He says the are hands down the best available right now and will not run anything else.

sorry to cross post but JPMagyer says it best in this thread. One would be better to set it lower from the beginning and leave it alone just like t-5 and mh you don't have the ability to manipulate only timing and height of fixture. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23733985&postcount=28

 

[gablett]

Wow 5 fixtures!!! No wonder why you bleached them. These fixtures are crazy powerful.

Yea thats why I ran them very low and ramped up.